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Author Topic: Leaf Aptus-II 12  (Read 37035 times)
bcooter
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« Reply #120 on: September 29, 2010, 02:21:47 PM »
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I suspect the Phase back on a Hy6 won't (ever) happen after Sinar & Rollei went out of their way to cut Phase completely off from the Hy6 body originally. And now that Phase owns Leaf, well...  

I doubt seriously if a multi national company is trying to punish a camera maker.  

Not to divulge anything in confidence but I was told it's all about money.  The Phase One buy in for the HY6 was large, the takeover of Mamiya was less, so I doubt if the Hy6 makers (whoever they were) tried to lock out anyone and if they did, that makes absolutely no business sense.  I think what the HY6 makers tried to do was get contracts of volume, so they could go forward.

If I'm wrong, show me the e-mail that proves otherwise.

In regards to Leaf, I think you have to realize that Leaf owners view their products as Leaf products, not owned by Creo, Kodak or Phase and for the people that bought into the HY6, if they're left hanging, well I think we all know how they feel.

I don't get the medium format thing of brand/dealer worship and what one brand really has to do with the other.   

I never understood the Phase vs. Hasselblad thing.  Hasselblad has THE camera platform and wanted more digital back sales, so they devised a system where they could sell more digital backs. If you are a Leaf, Phase, Sinar owner with an H system it didn't really change anything, because H series cameras and lenses are everywhere.

One of the refreshing things about owning Contax is I never really worry about them.  Nobody's gonna diss them, lock them out, or put out rumors because they're gone and if they do stop making backs, well I'll just buy a different camera.   

But as far as "open" systems, in my mind none are that open unless they have universal mounts for the backs.  If that was the original process 98% of this medium format conversation would disappear.

Regardless, there are about a dozen things "professional" photographers would like to see from camera makers, (in all formats) but punishment is not on the list. 

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 02:37:14 PM by bcooter » Logged
tho_mas
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« Reply #121 on: September 29, 2010, 02:59:46 PM »
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The Phase One buy in for the HY6 was large, the takeover of Mamiya was less, so I doubt if the Hy6 makers (whoever they were) tried to lock out anyone and if they did, that makes absolutely no business sense.
I think Jack referred to the time when the Hy6 was released... so quite some time before Rollei busted and before P1 bought Leaf (and therefore also the license to produce the AFi). At that time Rollei/Sinar/Leaf had no interest to make the camera available for P1 backs as they wanted to sell their own backs. Don't know if this is true... but that's the legend. At least Sinar was brainless enough to sell the arTec exclusively in Hy6 mount when it came out. So I wouldn't be too surprised if the legend is true (I mean the legend that P1 initially was not allowed to make a back in Hy6 mount).
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« Reply #122 on: September 29, 2010, 04:09:51 PM »
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I shoot Rollei and use both phase and ixpress (hasselblad) backs on the 6008 camera platform and have a real interest in what was going on with the Hy6.  I've heard so many different stories from all kinds of people who claimed to know what was going on that I can only conclude that no one really knows including the businesses in question.  It was probably all a big misunderstanding.   Roll Eyes     

So let's get those backs fit for the Hy6/AFi  and 6008AF bodies now okay?    Best camera, best optics and best backs sounds like a real win for everyone!
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« Reply #123 on: September 29, 2010, 05:00:15 PM »
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Best guess:

For whatever reason, either Leaf or Sinar (or both?) wanted to keep Phase out. Probably saw the MF market being them, Hassy and Phase, and wanted to protect 1/3 of the market... obviously in hindsight not the best of moves, but so be it. Wouldn't be the first time someone misjudged a sliding market. Remember the detailed post on how Hassy tried about 10 years ago to make a digital MF camera, and just couldn't get the timing and the technology together at the right time? Same thing with Rollei then as well. 

With regard to Phase and the Hy6/AFI, I wouldn't think they would ever convert their back for a moribund system that they never had supplied with a back before. So that's not going anywhere...

Leaf, OTOH, might well touch this one, especially if they want to pick up a little bit of business. Not great sales (at the moment - of course, if the AFI ever went back into production, it might be different, but IMHO that is not too likely). But as it stands now, they know the engineering, they have working interfaces with the camera, they have the exterior cases (if not a supply of carcasses, they certainly built them once and it wouldn't be hard to get more...). Their last versions came with rotating sensors as well (AFI II 7 and 10). So upgrading those backs to an AFI II 12 wouldn't be a hard thing to do at all.

Probably a matter of a pre-sale commitment number (50 as a minimum guess, 250 as a max?).... just thinking out loud. No special knowledge here.  Leaf could also do a "ship it in and we'll upgrade your back" if they were so motivated.

As to ownership of Intellectual property for the Hy6/AFI, I heard a rumor that it ended up with Kodak, when they bought Leaf. Of course, who knows what Phase got when they bought Leaf from Kodak. I dream that the IP rights for the Hy6 are in someone's desk drawer in Rochester, and the next time they do a big cleanout, they'll find their way back to where they came from, stamped "of no further interest to Kodak. Do as you wish....".

OK, its end of the day here. Sorry if this upsets anyone. 
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« Reply #124 on: September 30, 2010, 02:34:41 PM »
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Jack,
Are you just regurgitating other posts from your own forum or other places without doing any fact checking or do you really know first hand that's how it went?   Just asking because it appears that GetDPI is strongly aligned with Phase through a well known dealer.
Eric


By your tone, it sounds like you have a bone to pick over something that I'm not aware of...  As for GetDPI being 'strongly aligned with *a* well known dealer', it would be far more accurate to say,  "We have strong working relationships with *several* well known dealers across the US, and most of them participate regularly on our site." And you can quote me on that Wink

PS: To make things more clear even though you didn't ask specifically about this, we also have good working relationships with several equipment manufacturers throughout the world.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 02:46:06 PM by Jack Flesher » Logged

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« Reply #125 on: September 30, 2010, 03:51:56 PM »
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By your tone, it sounds like you have a bone to pick over something that I'm not aware of...  As for GetDPI being 'strongly aligned with *a* well known dealer', it would be far more accurate to say,  "We have strong working relationships with *several* well known dealers across the US, and most of them participate regularly on our site." And you can quote me on that Wink

PS: To make things more clear even though you didn't ask specifically about this, we also have good working relationships with several equipment manufacturers throughout the world.

Cheers,

What I asked was if there was any basis to your comments about Phase/Leaf's decisions WRT the Hy6/AFi.   A lot of people are curious about this and what you posted sound more like conjecture.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 03:55:33 PM by EricWHiss » Logged

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« Reply #126 on: September 30, 2010, 03:56:37 PM »
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Hassy classic was retired, Contax was retired, Hy6 was mothballed, Sinar M killed - do I see a pattern here? If I were a conspiracy theorist I would say that Zeiss lenses are bad for a company's health Smiley

Edmund
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« Reply #127 on: September 30, 2010, 06:55:34 PM »
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Yair,
Help us all get back on topic and post some more samples from the new back!
Thanks,
Eric
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« Reply #128 on: September 30, 2010, 08:09:03 PM »
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Jack,
Are you just regurgitating other posts from your own forum or other places without doing any fact checking or do you really know first hand that's how it went?   Just asking because it appears that GetDPI is strongly aligned with Phase through a well known dealer.
Eric



Just for the sake of clarification, I don't think we've ever offered any definitive insight into what went down...

I have my own theories, but they're not worth a thing.

And I think as Mr. Cooter says, ultimately money and business plans that produce it (or attempt to) typically rule the day.

BJL - IMO there are certainly more Contax's in use than Hy6 cameras, even after being discontinued all these years. Also, behind Leaf's decision to offer Contax mount, probably less expensive to produce a limited run of Apti for a Contax than for an AFi/Hy6.

Obviously Contax as a digital back platform doesn't have the numbers of Mamiya/Phase or Hasselblad H (or even Hasselblad V), but it has been a very consistent and loyal base of digital back purchasers/upgraders.


Steve Hendrix
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bcooter
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« Reply #129 on: October 01, 2010, 12:50:46 AM »
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I don't doubt for a second that Phase taking over Mamiya was not a better idea than partnering with the HY6.  The HY6 held great promise, but the deal with Mamiya gave phase more control over their own destiny and in the business world control is everything.

Now I'm not the biggest fan of the Mamiya 645 just because it isn't my cup - 0 -  tea, but that doesn't mean that going forward it wasn't the best decision for the company and the cusotmer.

I also don't believe Phase presently dissed the HY6 out of retribution.  That makes no business sense and would take away too much good will.

IMO

BC


Just for the sake of clarification, I don't think we've ever offered any definitive insight into what went down...

I have my own theories, but they're not worth a thing.

And I think as Mr. Cooter says, ultimately money and business plans that produce it (or attempt to) typically rule the day.

BJL - IMO there are certainly more Contax's in use than Hy6 cameras, even after being discontinued all these years. Also, behind Leaf's decision to offer Contax mount, probably less expensive to produce a limited run of Apti for a Contax than for an AFi/Hy6.

Obviously Contax as a digital back platform doesn't have the numbers of Mamiya/Phase or Hasselblad H (or even Hasselblad V), but it has been a very consistent and loyal base of digital back purchasers/upgraders.


Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #130 on: October 01, 2010, 02:07:01 AM »
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Yair,
Help us all get back on topic and post some more samples from the new back!
Thanks,
Eric

Nah this thread is too enjoyable as it is already...if I post images we'll be back to pseudo scientific remarks about astronomy, painterly effects and microscopic noise patterns...

We'll have more images taken by real photographers up soon, probably in a new thread...

Yair
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« Reply #131 on: October 02, 2010, 07:32:27 AM »
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While I would like a faster capture rate, what I meant was the slower capture rate as a positive is that perhaps they are not rushing the data off the chip, which compromises image quality. I would love an 80MP sensor at 1.5 frames per second (instead of 1.5 seconds per frame), but honestly, faster frame rates hasn't been a driving force behind most of our digital back sales from the past year. I personally prefer 1 shot per second as a minimum, but at 80MP's I'd rather squeeze every bit of quality out of the sensor.
Steve Hendrix

Oh Come On Steve!  this is ridiculous. data is data. 1's and 0's. either you have it or you don't. Speed has nothing to do with it.  Otherwise a Canon 1Dmk4 in Drive mode would give worse quality images than in single shot mode!  Aaargh.  

Reminds me of my Dad complaining that he couldn't get onto the internet because of all the 'young people' on there! He thought it was like a train or bus that had got filled up by all the queue jumpers, and there was no room left for old folks.  (the desktop link on his computer was simply broken)



« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 07:34:51 AM by narikin » Logged
BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #132 on: October 02, 2010, 08:22:40 AM »
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Oh Come On Steve!  this is ridiculous. data is data. 1's and 0's. either you have it or you don't. Speed has nothing to do with it.

That's not correct. Read-out speed has an effect on noise. What's more, for CMOS devices it is possible to do multiple (non-destructive but time consuming) readouts and improve noise statistics and thus dynamic range.

Data is not data until it is quantized by the ADC!

Another question is whether the relatively low FPS are caused by read-out speed or by mechanical restrictions and the amount of data that needs to be off-loaded from the sensor array.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 09:43:53 AM by BartvanderWolf » Logged
bradleygibson
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« Reply #133 on: October 02, 2010, 09:48:20 AM »
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Oh Come On Steve!  this is ridiculous. data is data. 1's and 0's. either you have it or you don't. Speed has nothing to do with it.  Otherwise a Canon 1Dmk4 in Drive mode would give worse quality images than in single shot mode!  Aaargh.

Actually, Steve and Bart are quite correct.  Sensors convert light into electrical charge -- this is an analog quantity, and must be moved to the analog-to-digital converter (ADC) for conversion into a digital signal.  It is very, very difficult to move this data without contaminating it with noise before it is converted to digital data.

Canon has many, many patents protecting the results of millions of dollars of research into sensor designs, which include moving this analog data quickly and cleanly to the ADC.

This initial stage where the information is stored as analog charge is the very same stage at which the temperature of your sensor visibly impacts the amount of noise in your image--as you point out, once the data is digital, it is immune to such effects.  The effect that temperature has on noise you can experience yourself with any digital camera.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 10:43:59 PM by bradleygibson » Logged

Doug Peterson
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« Reply #134 on: October 03, 2010, 09:40:12 AM »
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Oh Come On Steve!  this is ridiculous. data is data. 1's and 0's. either you have it or you don't. Speed has nothing to do with it.  Otherwise a Canon 1Dmk4 in Drive mode would give worse quality images than in single shot mode!  Aaargh.

Steve's been at this a couple years and rarely speaks without something to back up his thoughts  Wink.

As pointed out by two nice fellow forum members there is in fact a relationship between speed and quality when it comes to read out and other elements of the data-path and overall system design. If/where there is a compromise to be made I'd also rather it be in the direction of quality rather than speed.

That said it'd be great if it could have been 1 fps - from shooting with many kinds of backs that is also my personal threshold for feeling "snappy". YMMV

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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« Reply #135 on: October 03, 2010, 10:14:02 AM »
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Yep, I agree Doug.  There's something nice about that 1fps threshold...
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 10:15:37 AM by bradleygibson » Logged

jduncan
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« Reply #136 on: October 03, 2010, 02:04:04 PM »
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Hassy classic was retired, Contax was retired, Hy6 was mothballed, Sinar M killed - do I see a pattern here? If I were a conspiracy theorist I would say that Zeiss lenses are bad for a company's health Smiley

Edmund
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« Reply #137 on: October 03, 2010, 03:02:55 PM »
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Sony should be nervous.

I don't think there will be a successor to the 900/850.

Edmund
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« Reply #138 on: October 03, 2010, 06:16:27 PM »
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Hi just a quick question... since I have never seen a leaf back in person. Will this be suitable for outdoor / landscape work dealing with: damp / rainy environment, or dust blowing, cold or hot? From what I have read the back has holes / vents so would that mean it won't be good using it in a very windy/dusty environment? Thanks for the clarification.
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« Reply #139 on: October 04, 2010, 01:26:37 AM »
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Hi just a quick question... since I have never seen a leaf back in person. Will this be suitable for outdoor / landscape work dealing with: damp / rainy environment, or dust blowing, cold or hot? From what I have read the back has holes / vents so would that mean it won't be good using it in a very windy/dusty environment? Thanks for the clarification.

I've been shooting outdoors with Aptus backs since 2005 (and before that with Valeo backs) and have had no issues with wind, dust or damp conditions.
Solid rain is not recommended of course...for this I would get a rain cover.

Leaf backs are made in a country where the summer can be very hot and humid near the coast while in spring and autumn you get plenty of dust storms. Open vents were never an issue in these conditions.

Really cold weather affects battery behaviour. For this we make a DC-to-Firewire adapter that allows the back to run of of an external battery e.g. Quantum, which can be kept under your jacket.

Hope this helps

Yair
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