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Author Topic: Photokina Roundup from Hasselblad  (Read 12283 times)
Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2010, 07:09:42 AM »
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We have discussed may times internally about the need for an industrial type mirrorless camera.  In depends a lot on if we believe it will be useful across a range of industries.
There is considerable demand for quality Wide-Angle T/S cameras, mainly for architecture.

The best cost-effective non-retro-focus Wide-Angle lenses are too short to use on SLR's as the mirror gets in the way...

Current Hasselblad Wide-Angle lenses do not have enough image circle for T & S without a tele-converter.

Pancake cameras and Medium format digital view cameras are too much trouble for many photographers.

A Mirror-less camera would be in demand for this type of work.

A pseudo-SLR viewfinder would be great, but that is not currently possible with hi-res Medium-format digital backs...

(...but "they" could make a small-format digital back, (which would not be much use with MF-WA lenses) or the Red 645 might be an option.)

The solution might be something like a SWC with a built-in glass-free shift/tilt/focusing mount...

Even if we could not have 50 frames per second full colour live view on the digiback, live view that refreshed every second or so might be acceptable ...but not ideal for hand-held work.

The recently-announced tethered preview on the digiback might be the solution... if the digiback has this ability built-in, how small a "tethered/attached" box would be needed to provide this in a hand-held camera?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 08:01:16 AM by Dick Roadnight » Logged

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JonathanBenoit
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« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2010, 07:38:51 AM »
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The recently-announced tethered preview on the digiback might be the solution... if the digiback has this ability built-in, how small a "tethered/attached" box would be needed to provide this in a hand-held camera?

It sounds like Phocus will send back the video to the camera's lcd. I'm not sure what application that would lend itself. If you need to still be tethered, why wouldn't you just look at the computer screen? I guess maybe it might slightly speed up the workflow for some.
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paulmoorestudio
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« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2010, 07:43:25 AM »
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...
Pancake cameras and Medium format digital view cameras are too much trouble for many photographers.



I love that statement..you know what? maybe they need to need to stick to point and shoots, or better, train as digital hygienists.. they wouldn't even have to fuss
with a camera.   I hope I am taking your statement way out of context.
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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2010, 07:44:14 AM »
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Id love to know what a Doughnut interface is.  Glazed or plain? Wink
Just an SLR with a removable mirror box, which you could fit into the "doughnut user interface" in portrait of landscape orientation.

The thought was that you could mount the digiback in the doughnut interface for mirror-less less use, especially with non-retro-focus Wide Angle lenses.  
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 08:00:50 AM by Dick Roadnight » Logged

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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2010, 08:00:27 AM »
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It sounds like Phocus will send back the video to the camera's lcd. I'm not sure what application that would lend itself. If you need to still be tethered, why wouldn't you just look at the computer screen? I guess maybe it might slightly speed up the workflow for some.

That is why I was wonder in if you could run Phocus on a small electronic gizmo that you could attach to the camera, and get live view on a hand-held, non-tethered camera.

Apparently it was a much-requested feature.

If you tether to...

power the camera, save the camera battery
allow others to view/process/approve the pictures
backup images
send images to a remote customer

...but you still want to be at the camera...  e.g. to adjust composition, then it makes sense, especially if you are using a view camera so you do not have an SLR view-finder.

You may then use the computer screen for fine focusing.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 08:18:22 AM by Dick Roadnight » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2010, 08:15:36 AM »
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Here is the "red one" (bella macina):
http://de.engadget.com/2010/09/23/hasselblad-macht-mittelformat-mit-ferrari-logo-preis-nicht-fur/

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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2010, 08:21:44 AM »
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I wonder if the agreement allows Ferrari to use the Hasselblad logo and colour scheme on their cars?
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JonathanBenoit
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« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2010, 08:50:52 AM »
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That is why I was wonder in if you could run Phocus on a small electronic gizmo that you could attach to the camera, and get live view on a hand-held, non-tethered camera.

Apparently it was a much-requested feature.

If you tether to...

power the camera, save the camera battery
allow others to view/process/approve the pictures
backup images
send images to a remote customer

...but you still want to be at the camera...  e.g. to adjust composition, then it makes sense, especially if you are using a view camera so you do not have an SLR view-finder.

You may then use the computer screen for fine focusing.

Ya. you'd think that by now they would have implemented into the camera some sort of processor capable of running live view. If they can do what they say they can, they can't be far from an on camera live view. I don't know the technology of it, but it seems like an easy feature to add.

You do want to be at the camera, but I like the sliding back approach and my laptop is right beside my camera anyways. I'll change my mind of course when I can touch any spot on my large db lcd and bring up a liveview in 100%.
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2010, 08:55:53 AM »
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Ya. you'd think that by now they would have implemented into the camera some sort of processor capable of running live view. If they can do what they say they can, they can't be far from an on camera live view. I don't know the technology of it, but it seems like an easy feature to add.

You do want to be at the camera, but I like the sliding back approach and my laptop is right beside my camera anyways. I'll change my mind of course when I can touch any spot on my large db lcd and bring up a liveview in 100%.

Hi Jonathon,

The CCD is not capable of producing a Live Video image on the back of the camera.  This would need a change to CMOS technology.

David

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David Grover
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JonathanBenoit
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« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2010, 08:57:22 AM »
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David,

So is this new feature that shows a preview when tethered really just the previously captured image from the computer?

Edit: I'm getting the suspicion that now the captured image shows on the LCD as well as the computer where is didnt before. The Aptus-II series already does this.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 09:03:22 AM by JonathanBenoit » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2010, 08:59:29 AM »
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Also, I understand that is the often supplied reason for no live view, but if a computer can do it and it only costs $1000 why cant a similar computing device be integrated into the back to provide live view?
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KLaban
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« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2010, 09:53:19 AM »
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As I understand it, true live view is the Holy Grail for medium format digital capture. Whoever cracks the code first and introduces live view wins and wins big-time.

I imagine that as we speak there are boffins slaving away in locked darkened rooms and they won't be released until they pony up the goods.
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James R Russell
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« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2010, 11:35:09 AM »
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snip
I have decided to write a brief round up with what we announced at Photokina.  Cross posted to Getdpi.

The White one was ordered many times over, even though there is no final decision on availability.  We will have to see.

snip


A few years ago, I would have lobbied for a black H series camera, but today, I think I'd leave it the color as it is.

I know, I know . . . looks aren't suppose to matter but when you pay twice the price of a Canon or Nikon it doesn't hurt that the camera looks different, in fact not that I've ever had a client ask about a specific camera, professional production should look professional.

It's funny but the Canons and Nikons have become so large that sitting them next to a Contax or a Mamiya few people if any really notice the difference, but a Hasselblad, well it "is" a Hasselblad and it does look different.

Maybe that was their plan all along, (David you can answer this).

Regardless and not to start a 35mm vs any format discussion, I've come to the conclusion that for me it's not, probably never will be a one camera world.

Sure the Canons and Nikons shoot great and in some low light and fast imagery even better than medium format, but in more controlled circumstances they don't.

Last year I shot probably 90% of our work with a dslr, this year a reversal where about 75%  is medium format.  Some because the look is just different, some because in commercial work we do so much in post, some because the software is now more stable, but mostly because it just gives the retouchers more to work with and at that point size does matter, no matter what  the final reproduction size is.

Obviously the idea, the final image is what counts, but our industry, heck all business is under incredible competitive pressure and today every edge helps, even looks.

Anyway, I'm probably not in the market for a Ferrari red medium format camera, but I would suggest they keep it grey. 

(The white one is pretty though.)

JR

P.S.  David do you have any comparisons of 800 iso with the h4d 40 vs the 31mpx?

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BJL
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« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2010, 11:43:50 AM »
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It does seem that Live View is a Holy Grail for DMF, both in desirability and unobtainability.
Also, I understand that is the often supplied reason for no live view, but if a computer can do it and it only costs $1000 why cant a similar computing device be integrated into the back to provide live view?
I think you should trust David on this one! Or otherwise read the history of CCD's, which will tell you that the Full Frame type of CCD used in MF so far does not have the wiring needed for fast direct read-out of pixels or for selective read out of some pixels to get a higher frame rate, lower res. option. These sensors cannot do video, no matter how much computing power you attach to them.

In fact, video camera usage was exactly why the interline type of CCD was invented, and interline is the type of CCD in all the small sensor digicams that have had live view forever. In principal, MF could change to interline CCD's with video capabilities (Kodak makes interline CCD's, though not in MF sizes). But interline CCD's have more noise, less well capacity and thus overall lower IQ than Full Frame CCD (at least this is what I see when comparing Kodak CCD options), and David is right in saying that the only practical way to add Live View to MF is to change to (active pixel) CMOS sensors.

The perennial question is whether any sensor makes can make a profit creating CMOS sensor designs larger than 36x24mm and of sufficiently high resolution for the tiny MF back market.
Hints:
(1) no sensor maker has done it, despite years of hopes and predictions in the forums.
(2) it now seems that Sony's sensor division is struggling to profit even in the far larger market (about 100 times the unit sales, so at least ten times the revenues) for 36x24mm sensors.

Large but very low resolution CMOS sensor panels for X-rays, telescopes and such, often with visible join lines between multiple sensor chips butted together, do not count, as the IQ is unsatisfactory for MF.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 11:46:43 AM by BJL » Logged
paulmoorestudio
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« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2010, 12:13:37 PM »
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(The white one is pretty though.)

JR




you fashion dudes crack me up..cant resist a little bling, white is this years gold!


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James R Russell
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« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2010, 01:30:25 PM »
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.cant resist a little bling, white is this years gold!





No gold is this years gold, white is the new black, at least when it comes to buying an Audi.

Anyway, I doubt if I'll buy a white camera, but I think it's funny, everyone wanted a black blad, but when you think about it, if it looked like a cheaper camera, then it didn't have the bling of a blad.

(I think that rhymes).

JR
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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2010, 01:53:06 PM »
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Hi Jonathon,

The CCD is not capable of producing a Live Video image on the back of the camera.  This would need a change to CMOS technology.

David
¿Is the CCD not capable of producing colour images faster than on or two a second?

The camera+computer can produce monochrome live view ... would it be possible to display this on the camera back at how many frame per second?

We appreciate that Hasselblads are about top quality still images that cannot be produced with CCD technology.
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BJL
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« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2010, 04:29:41 PM »
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¿Is the CCD not capable of producing colour images faster than on or two a second? ... would it be possible to display this on the camera back at how many frame per second?
Same fps: the limitation is that essentially a FF type CCD must read-out of every photosite, one [or up to four] at a time; no skipping, little room for parallelization.

P. S. This description might be useful: http://ezinearticles.com/?Frame-Transfer-and-Interline-CCD-Electronic-Shutter-in-CCDs&id=432404
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 03:56:52 PM by BJL » Logged
David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2010, 02:00:31 AM »
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(The white one is pretty though.)

JR

P.S.  David do you have any comparisons of 800 iso with the h4d 40 vs the 31mpx?



Yes it is.  Wink

Most likely.  Ill dig them out after the Post Photokina Fallout.

I would say the 40 is one stop better than the 31 if that makes sense.  It would probably be good to shoot the same scene with both cameras to be fair.

D
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David Grover
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2010, 02:02:05 AM »
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No gold is this years gold, white is the new black, at least when it comes to buying an Audi.

Anyway, I doubt if I'll buy a white camera, but I think it's funny, everyone wanted a black blad, but when you think about it, if it looked like a cheaper camera, then it didn't have the bling of a blad.

(I think that rhymes).

JR

I have an image of a black H lined up with Mamiya, Nikon, Canon etc etc black offerings.  I have to say, the H just does not look right.  Anyway, I am probably used to its normal clothing.

Japan always loved White cars... slowly creeping in here in the UK too.
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David Grover
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