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Author Topic: Untitled (Backlit man in chair)  (Read 3906 times)
pegelli
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« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2010, 11:59:36 PM »
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I think photographers can be split into several camps: those who know what they want; those who know what they want and how to do it; those who want to be told what they want; those who also want to be told how to do it.


I think every logic that splits people into catagories or camps is flawed from the start.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 12:17:42 AM by pegelli » Logged

pieter, aka pegelli
Rob C
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« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2010, 02:58:21 AM »
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I think every logic that splits people into catagories or camps is flawed from the start.




So where does that leave your post, above? Original sinned?

Rob C
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stamper
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« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2010, 02:58:42 AM »
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I think every logic that splits people into catagories or camps is flawed from the start.



Rob even if we accept your premise about being split into several camps then the photographers will be moving from one to the other?

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those who know what they want and how to do it;

Unquote

It takes time to get there. Advice and experience is part of it. Nobody is born knowing it all? Whilst you may think that someone either has it or not  what you probably don't realise is the subconscious learning that took place even if you didn't seek the concious part?  Undecided
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Rob C
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« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2010, 03:09:00 AM »
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Rob,
I know we've been over this many times before, but I think you are taking these critiques far to seriously. Most of these critiques are not about the photographer's overarching vision or voice (for which I would agree with you), but are instead about the effectiveness of a single image (or small group of images). I not only consider such critiques valuable, I consider them invaluable. Necessary.
There are many reasons such image critiques are helpful. One of the most common is over attachment to an image due to the experience or difficulty of the shoot. I dare say we've all had images whose failings were hidden by our memory of the shoot. In a similar vein, we've all been to fantastic and exotic locales at which we've made photographs which simply don't work, but whose failings are hidden by our intimate and romanticized memory.
Critiques are tools that help keep us grounded by forcing us to relook at our images through different perspectives and viewpoints. To allow us to see successes and failings to which we may be blinded. They are not meant to change us, but simply to open our eyes.

Chuck

I've said the same about romanticizing a situation because of personal experience at the time, but that doesn't mean that anyone else can tell you how you might have improved the shot; it only tells you what somebody else thinks about it. I don't really care - unless it's a client - and neither should anyone else. I think eyes are open from the moment you start to take the game seriously. The thing is, do you want to play it wearing somebody else's glasses?

How is the change of locale treating you?

Rob C
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pegelli
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« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2010, 03:15:37 AM »
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So where does that leave your post, above? Original sinned?

Rob C

Please do not accuse me of "sins" (your words) that you committed. Go back and read the post you refer to and if you can show where I put people in camps I'll buy you a beer Wink

I don't really care - unless it's a client - and neither should anyone else.

That you don't care is your choice, That anyone else cares is their choice, not yours.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 03:23:14 AM by pegelli » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2010, 03:29:57 AM »
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Rob even if we accept your premise about being split into several camps then the photographers will be moving from one to the other?
Quote
those who know what they want and how to do it;
Unquote
It takes time to get there. Advice and experience is part of it. Nobody is born knowing it all? Whilst you may think that someone either has it or not  what you probably don't realise is the subconscious learning that took place even if you didn't seek the concious part?  Undecided

Stamper

Agreed, you have to learn somehow, which is what I said: I asked how to dev and print film. And much later, how to work digi files. But that's world's away from the aesthetic twaddle that I think is offered to people who post images in the critique sections; there, I think you mostly get the impression of 'daddy knows best' which he often does not. And there lies what I perceive as the danger: if neophytes take these people seriously then they can just as seriously damage their own growth and direction. (But that's just me!) To measure the value of such advice, just read the contrasting opinion these posts spawn: how in hell is the poor OP supposed to guess who's right? The only logical conclusion he can draw is that his guess is as good as theirs. Maybe that lesson alone is worth the cost of admission?

I repeat again: just use your eyes and look at lots of pictures and you'll soon eithet get it or not. If you don't, you can only waste time and money looking for gurus, of which there are plenty.

Rob C
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« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2010, 03:35:10 AM »
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Peg

Your sin is in making statements that a logic with which you disagree is flawed from the start; that's every bit as unequivocal as anything I might have stated. You just didn't get the point or I didn't express it in terms you understood. My fault, but your sin (secondary).

;-)

Rob C
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pegelli
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« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2010, 03:52:17 AM »
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My fault, but your sin

Neither a fault, nor a sin in my mind but that's beside the main point of this discussion so I propose to leave it there.

Back to the main topic, if you take pictures I think simplistically you have two related objectives (1) express your vision and (2) reach your audience. So if you post pictures here you're basically seeking reactions from a part of your audience and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. If indeed the photographer takes all these comments as the "truth" he's creating a problem for himself (which is part of what you're opposing). However I think if he judges the comments critically he can take something away from it, he can agree or disagree, he can experiment with it or not, all his own choice. It's just one more input, next to your (I think good) advice to study the masters.
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pieter, aka pegelli
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« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2010, 04:22:01 AM »
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Quote

 if you take pictures I think simplistically you have two related objectives (1) express your vision and (2) reach your audience. So if you post pictures here you're basically seeking reactions from a part of your audience and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. If indeed the photographer takes all these comments as the "truth" he's creating a problem for himself (which is part of what you're opposing). However I think if he judges the comments critically he can take something away from it, he can agree or disagree, he can experiment with it or not, all his own choice. It's just one more input, next to your (I think good) advice to study the masters.

Unquote

This for me sums it up nicely Cool
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Eric Myrvaagnes
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« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2010, 09:32:27 AM »
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Back to the main topic, if you take pictures I think simplistically you have two related objectives (1) express your vision and (2) reach your audience. So if you post pictures here you're basically seeking reactions from a part of your audience and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. If indeed the photographer takes all these comments as the "truth" he's creating a problem for himself (which is part of what you're opposing). However I think if he judges the comments critically he can take something away from it, he can agree or disagree, he can experiment with it or not, all his own choice. It's just one more input, next to your (I think good) advice to study the masters.
Well put. And I'll add that I don't believe anybody (even Cartier-Bresson or Weston) was born with his own "vision" fully formed in infancy. Listening to other people's reaction to your work can help you understand and develop your own vision, provided you don't take the comments as "truth."

Eric
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« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2010, 10:44:34 AM »
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Eric, There's a lot of truth in what you and Pegelli are saying but it assumes that the poster posts something that can be critiqued. As I've said before, an awful lot of the photographs that get posted on User Critiques are snapshots: tourist shots. How can you critique a shot that has nothing going for it except that it's pretty, or that its subject is something unusual? When this kind of picture gets on here the criticism usually amounts to: "I like it," or "It doesn't do anything for me," or "You should crop out some of the sky," etc., etc. What else can you say about that kind of picture?

I can't see how this helps the poster. Seems to me the proper "critique" for a tourist shot is: "Go to the library and check out three books: one by Ansel Adams, one by Henri Cartier-Bresson, and one by Robert Frank. As you go through these three books, see if there's anything in them that makes you want to run out the door with your camera and start shooting pictures. If not, go back to the library and check out a book by Paul Strand, one by Edward Weston, and one by Walker Evans. If you go through these three books and still don't want to run out the door with your camera, consider taking up music or amateur theater instead of photography.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 10:46:17 AM by RSL » Logged

Rob C
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« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2010, 11:01:24 AM »
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Eric, There's a lot of truth in what you and Pegelli are saying but it assumes that the poster posts something that can be critiqued. As I've said before, an awful lot of the photographs that get posted on User Critiques are snapshots: tourist shots. How can you critique a shot that has nothing going for it except that it's pretty, or that its subject is something unusual? When this kind of picture gets on here the criticism usually amounts to: "I like it," or "It doesn't do anything for me," or "You should crop out some of the sky," etc., etc. What else can you say about that kind of picture?

I can't see how this helps the poster. Seems to me the proper "critique" for a tourist shot is: "Go to the library and check out three books: one by Ansel Adams, one by Henri Cartier-Bresson, and one by Robert Frank. As you go through these three books, see if there's anything in them that makes you want to run out the door with your camera and start shooting pictures. If not, go back to the library and check out a book by Paul Strand, one by Edward Weston, and one by Walker Evans. If you go through these three books and still don't want to run out the door with your camera, consider taking up music or amateur theater instead of photography.



Can't argue with any of that!

Rob C
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pegelli
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« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2010, 11:27:11 AM »
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Can't argue with any of that!

Rob C

No you can leave that to others like Eric, stamper and me  Wink

Also I have no problem with people not reaching the levels you think are needed and as long as they're willing to post and learn I think comments are worthwhile to give.

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pieter, aka pegelli
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« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2010, 12:15:38 PM »
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In other words, "I like it," and "Doesn't do anything for me." No doubt the posters are very edified by that kind of "critique."
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pegelli
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« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2010, 12:38:08 PM »
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In other words, "I like it," and "Doesn't do anything for me." No doubt the posters are very edified by that kind of "critique."

Why do you feel the need to first make a caricature and then belittle it? I think you're smart enough not to need that.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 12:39:41 PM by pegelli » Logged

pieter, aka pegelli
Eric Myrvaagnes
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« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2010, 01:23:35 PM »
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In other words, "I like it," and "Doesn't do anything for me." No doubt the posters are very edified by that kind of "critique."
I'll admit that I do sometimes say "I like it" to a photo posted here. The fairly minimal message that sends to the poster is that at least one viewer responded positively and "got" the perhaps obvious point of the photo. Most often I simply skip over any photo that either leaves me cold or for which I don't have a useful suggestion to make. On rare occasions I think I see some aspect that can be improved and I try to describe what I would do.

Interestingly, in two workshops I took eons ago with Minor White he wouldn't allow us to respond to any image with "like", "dislike" or any synonyms of either of them. That did force us to dig deeper into the images we studied to see what was really there.

Cheers,

Eric
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RSL
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« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2010, 02:30:25 PM »
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Interestingly, in two workshops I took eons ago with Minor White he wouldn't allow us to respond to any image with "like", "dislike" or any synonyms of either of them.

Eric, I think Minor was smarter than the average bear.
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RSL
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« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2010, 02:37:23 PM »
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Also I have no problem with people not reaching the levels you think are needed...

Pegelli, I never even suggested it was a matter of "levels." Someone who's starting out to do landscape may be at a low level of development in his ability to capture a meaningful landscape, but at least he's trying to do a landscape. Same thing with street photography. If you try and fail, at least you're trying. That's not the same as not knowing what it is you're trying to do.

Why do you feel the need to first make a caricature and then belittle it? I think you're smart enough not to need that.

Also, you can save the insults. They don't impress me.
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pegelli
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« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2010, 03:12:24 PM »
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Also, you can save the insults. They don't impress me.
Sorry you felt insulted, that was not my intention.
However I still feel you're first making a caricature and then commenting on that rather than accepting that some people want to improve at snapshots and vacation photography and I still don't understand why you're trying to say that doesn't belong here, or should not happen in the first place
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 03:28:24 PM by pegelli » Logged

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« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2010, 03:32:50 PM »
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I'll leave it at that. I think my meaning was pretty clear.
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