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Author Topic: >61MP image files for peepers  (Read 29911 times)
John R Smith
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« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2010, 02:45:59 AM »
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Thank for the feedback John, my feathers are still held firmly in place Smiley

I say Tongue to the digicam stitch analogy and I invite you to compare your creamy 39MP digicam to this "thing" as soon as your nearest Leaf dealer get their demo unit in a few weeks time

Cheers

yair

Yair

We are I am sure all grateful to you for posting these examples here on the LL Forum. And I didn't really mean to be rude about your whizzy new back. But I do spend just about every evening working on RAW files from my MF back in Lightroom, so by now I think I have something of a "feel" for how I expect them to look. I expect there are several reasons why I was a bit underwhelmed -

* As others have noted, this is a pre-production example. Firmware will be different.

* The files I am looking at are JPEG, not RAW. This must affect quality at 100%.

* The landscape subjects you have chosen seem very flatly lit, so I am not getting a feel for edge contrast and "pop".

I think you have made the assumption that the subject that would show off your back the best would be something with amazing amounts of tiny detail. Well, yes, but all that really demonstrates is that you can print with this back to A1 rather than A2, and have as good a resolution as a 40MP back but twice as big (I think most of us already had that figured out, anyway). Which is all very well if you are into posters or wall-sized prints, but it doesn't really say anything about pictorial quality. I would rather see two or three really cracking pictures which pop off the screen and where tiny detail is just part of the story. And which show me something which I can't do with my 39MP, other than bigness.

John
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 03:32:03 AM by John R Smith » Logged

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bcooter
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« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2010, 03:28:16 AM »
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I guess waiting for proper software/firmware wouldn't be a problem unless anyone remembers lc10.

Anyway, it the real purpose of this back is to show it has detail and doesn't moire, shoot a full length subject with a blue sweater.  Actually shoot a full length subject in horizontal wearing anything blue.   That'll do it.

Or maybe hire a professional photographer to showcase a professional camer . . . oh sorry what was I thinking?

BC
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yaya
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« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2010, 03:56:49 AM »
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Anyway, it the real purpose of this back is to show it has detail and doesn't moire, shoot a full length subject with a blue sweater.  Actually shoot a full length subject in horizontal wearing anything blue.   That'll do it.
Or maybe hire a professional photographer to showcase a professional camer . . . oh sorry what was I thinking?
BC

This is being taken care of.

Don't forget that there are applications other than people that require high amount of detail and lack of moire;) and yes these ARE professional applications...

Yair
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bcooter
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« Reply #43 on: October 05, 2010, 04:28:55 AM »
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I understand giving a sneak peak of what's to come for expensive products.

Car makers have done this forever, showing  a $30,000 future car with shaved door handles, lowered stance, bigger wheels and a better look than the production car will ever achieve.  It might be a little bit of a fake but it looks good and creates some positive buzz.

These aptus samples are the opposite because for whatever reason they're flawed.

You can market your camera any way you want, but it always seems counter productive that companies and dealers show not so flattering images from expensive cameras, to professionals that shoot expensive productions, expecting a positive response. 

it just goes against the basic tenants of advertising.

Of all the medium format makers, when it comes to marketing, Hasselblad seems to get it.  They align their marketing and website with interesting professional images, which is why anyone buys expensive equipment in the first place. 


IMO

BC
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Rob C
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« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2010, 04:57:08 AM »
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"Of all the medium format makers, when it comes to marketing, Hasselblad seems to get it.  They align their marketing and website with interesting professional images, which is why anyone buys expensive equipment in the first place."


Absolutely, bc, and not only for MF but all formats. I remember way back, how cool the brochures that you would get from Nikon and Hasselblad used to look; wonderful pictures with great lighting; even Rollei used to produce good ones as did Mamiya for its RZ series and also their lenses; ditto the 67 RF one. Beautiful print quality, too. So good that I used to keep them filed, even when I had decided not to buy something.

Today you have the web if you want to look at something - enthusiasm becomes a self-created mind game, if it can be raised at all.

How much has been thrown away!

Rob C


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RobertJ
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« Reply #45 on: October 05, 2010, 07:04:07 AM »
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The lesson I've learned is to disregard sample images, even though Yair is kind enough to provide them.  Look at samples from the past and present from Canon and Nikon, Phase (Phase samples didn't really exist...).  They are, for the most part, horrible.  Then when you get the camera in your hands, you know what it can really do.

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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #46 on: October 05, 2010, 03:00:55 PM »
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Of all the medium format makers, when it comes to marketing, Hasselblad seems to get it.  They align their marketing and website with interesting professional images, which is why anyone buys expensive equipment in the first place. 
IMO
BC
I have Hasselblads, and I have ordered an H4D-60,,, but I thought that Hasselblad were unusual for a manufacturer in that they seem to concentrate more on getting the product ¿and service? right than on Marketing it.
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Gigi
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« Reply #47 on: October 05, 2010, 04:38:00 PM »
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WIth all respect to those who know more, my reaction at looking at these files was very simply,

OMG.
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Geoff
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« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2010, 04:41:13 PM »
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Señor Roadnight,

¿Why the incessant ¿?¿?¿? when you're not even asking a question in spanish? ¿They show up in every post you type?

¡Inquiring minds want to know!

(If you blew all your cash on the Hassy gear, we can pool money together for a new keyboard if that's the cause. Least we can do for all your visual contributions.)

¨I'm glad I'm not the only one wondering about that..
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JonathanBenoit
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« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2010, 06:01:04 PM »
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¨I'm glad I'm not the only one wondering about that..

Or his virtual viewpoint technique and the mysterious H4D-60 that is on its way.
I think he's just a little bit quirky. Nothing wrong with that.
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LKaven
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« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2010, 06:07:52 PM »
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Señor Roadnight, ¿Why the incessant ¿?¿?¿? when you're not even asking a question in spanish? ¿They show up in every post you type?
I don't see this in any of his posts on my browser.
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feppe
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« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2010, 06:54:18 PM »
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Or his virtual viewpoint technique and the mysterious H4D-60 that is on its way.
I think he's just a little bit quirky. Nothing wrong with that.

Definitely not, I'll take quirky over mundane any day. But some things are just plain annoying, especially when repeated.
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JonathanBenoit
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« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2010, 07:57:53 PM »
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I'm going to burn in hell for this; I don't care. For the last year and a half it's become beyond annoying with the "H3D this and H4D that" (Hasselblad makes great stuff, but that's beside the point here), endless Sinar P3, this 60MP vs that 60MP, DSLRs are for amateurs, and more from Señor R. Blah, blah, blah.

I shoot full time and I've owned a digital back, a dozen medium format cameras, a dozen 35mm and DSLR bodies, endless amounts of gear and it all doesn't matter. Hand me any camera, and I'll create something for me or for my clients. Gear doesn't make a photographer. Business skills, professionalism, contacts, networking and creativity. I'll gladly take my Canon G9, or Canon 5DII with a Zeiss 50mm and just go create instead of being bogged down with gear. Measurbation of pixels, too much emphasis on gear generates a creative mental block, an excess, a glut, that leads to nothing, empty pixels.

$100K of camera gear should be used to create some amazing stuff, I'll leave the judgement to others: http://www.hasselblad.com/hoc/photographers/richard-roadnight.aspx

Wait a second, are you telling that Hasselblad put a 50 megapixel picture of a f^%king cat on their website (reduced of course for web, plenty of full res cat photos on dpreview for the taking).

If you're going to talk the talk then walk the walk with a certain level of work. Some do and some don't. It's the constant noise that gets to me when I see nothing that shows that level.

Someone like bcooter can say whatever he wants, because he can back that shit up with kickass work and a long career to boot that we would all kill for. His success comes from within his head, not pixels and gear glut. That I respect. Others I don't.

Signing out for a good while.

Google is not our friend, it is our enemy:

http://www.mail-archive.com/prodig@connectinternetsolutions.com/msg01598.html

http://www.nick-t.com/blog/2010/03/no-youre-not-a-photographer-you-just-own-a-camera-facebook/#comment-46

http://www.photographyblog.com/news/160_megapixel_seitz_6x17_digital/#3

Truly some weird stuff. My advice, if you are going to be equipment pompous, then bring a truckload of elite photos, not a truckload of elite gear.

I've noticed that a photographer who says negative things about another photographer is insecure about their own skills. There is no place for insulting people. It makes you look weak.
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John R Smith
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Still crazy, after all these years


« Reply #53 on: October 06, 2010, 02:50:31 AM »
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Ahem.

Well, just for a moment, I will have a think about what Yair's new 80MP DB might be really good for, from my own professional experience.

* Aerial photography. Obviously, with APs, both oblique and vertical, detail is king. Especially vertical ones which will be geo-rectified and integrated into a corporate GIS.

* Historic building recording where the images will be rectified and used as the base for a CAD archive.

And outside of my personal experience I would imagine -

* Product photography where 5x4 is normally used (fabrics, food, watches, jewellery).

* Formal architecture and interiors.

I expect others here could add to this list. For my own work, which is largely pictorial and opportunist, I don't see much advantage over what I already have - except the ability to make a really severe crop and still have 40+ MP left. Which could admittedly be very handy when I make a total hash of framing something up.

John
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 02:52:56 AM by John R Smith » Logged

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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2010, 03:13:47 AM »
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I've noticed that a photographer who says negative things about another photographer is insecure about their own skills. There is no place for insulting people. It makes you look weak.
Thank you, Jonathan... but could I really be insulted by being quoted?

I have been wanting to get on to the Hasselblad info site for over a year, but they insist on seeing six pictures, and I could not find six pictures that I was not ashamed of... I took the photograph of the cat (and the silver goblet) about a decade ago on film. I hope soon to be able to upload some better pictures. As I have stated several times on various boards, I have been ill since I bought my H3D11-50 and I have not been able to much with it.

¿What is the problem?

...My theory is that the leading inverted question make tells the reader that the following text is a question (it is, of course, obvious if the sentence starts with "what"), before they get to the question mark at the end of the sentence?

If there is a poor student (or photographer) in the UK Midlands who would like to use my equipment (and help me get it up and running) I would be very glad to hear from them... I think it is very difficult to get financially established as a photographer when you are on a budget and you are competing with tens of thousands of photographers with similar equipment... this is why I have been spending so much on kit (but much of it I have bought used on eBay over the years). T/S lenses and post processing techniques make it possible to do (almost) anything without a monorail, but I hope that there is a market for specialist photography for which my kit is suitable. 

A great nephew of mine used my lighting kit for his 'A' level photography exam, and I hoped that he might have taken up photography as a career and taken over my kit when I retire... also a nice, who has just taken up a place at university to study psychology.

I do not know of any UK educational establishment that teaches Merklinger and would be likely to have a student that would be likely to be interested in my equipment and techniques.

Yair... I am sorry you thread has been side-tracked, perhaps we should start a new topic.

I hope my H4D-60 will be "more than adequate" for many applications for many years and I will not have to upgrade. I bought the H3D-50 with the option to upgrade to the 60, which will enable me to print 18 *24" @ 360 original camera pixels per print inch, (without scaling or resampling).
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fredjeang
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« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2010, 03:17:27 AM »
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I'm going to burn in hell for this; I don't care. For the last year and a half it's become beyond annoying with the "H3D this and H4D that" (Hasselblad makes great stuff, but that's beside the point here), endless Sinar P3, this 60MP vs that 60MP, DSLRs are for amateurs, and more from Señor R. Blah, blah, blah.

I shoot full time and I've owned a digital back, a dozen medium format cameras, a dozen 35mm and DSLR bodies, endless amounts of gear and it all doesn't matter. Hand me any camera, and I'll create something for me or for my clients. Gear doesn't make a photographer. Business skills, professionalism, contacts, networking and creativity. I'll gladly take my Canon G9, or Canon 5DII with a Zeiss 50mm and just go create instead of being bogged down with gear. Measurbation of pixels, too much emphasis on gear generates a creative mental block, an excess, a glut, that leads to nothing, empty pixels.

$100K of camera gear should be used to create some amazing stuff, I'll leave the judgement to others: http://www.hasselblad.com/hoc/photographers/richard-roadnight.aspx

Wait a second, are you telling that Hasselblad put a 50 megapixel picture of a f^%king cat on their website (reduced of course for web, plenty of full res cat photos on dpreview for the taking).

Someone opens their wallet and manufacturers pander.

If you're going to talk the talk then walk the walk with a certain level of work. Some do and some don't. It's the constant noise that gets to me when I see nothing that shows that level. Give the f%$king camera to some poor, barely scraping by photo student who is truly the next vunderkind!

Someone like bcooter can say whatever he wants, because he can back that shit up with kickass work and a long career to boot that we would all kill for. His success comes from within his head, not pixels and gear glut. That I respect. Others I don't.

Signing out for a good while.


Truly some weird stuff. My advice, if you are going to be equipment pompous, then bring a truckload of elite photos, not a truckload of elite gear.



I'd like to see a real video of a new product, shoot in real situation by someone like B.C from the beginning to the end. No words, no explainations but just the shooting experience. Is that exists? For what I know it does not.
 



  
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 09:40:11 AM by fredjeang » Logged
James R Russell
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« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2010, 01:13:30 PM »
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B
I'd like to see a real video of a new product, shoot in real situation by someone


Fred,

This is difficult.

To begin with we're a sound-bite society.  Most people want to hear a phrase.  If it's one line and works on facebook it's ok, if it takes a paragraph then it probably gets passed by.

Super detail, new lenses, shoots fast, something that seems like an obvious plus.  That's why they now sell a 80mpx back with no other improvements other than 80mpx.  As crazy as it seems even though there are full page 12 mpx 6 figure images running on the cover of every major magazine and on building sized images in times square, all the makers including the 35mm genre still cling to more megapixels on each new release.  

This thought is exasperated by the dozens of print and on line publications, and many more dozens of self appointed web experts,  that either push for advertising dollars, or close associations with the makers/sellers of equipment.  I mean which one of those sources is going to tell you not to buy something?

Michael Reichman probably is the best of the bunch as he tends to give a warts and all review of any camera that passes his way, but most, just push the kool-aid of their favorite brands and politely diss, or ignore  the brands that they don't associate with.  

But to show the process is basically showing that using any camera for heavy production is real work, sometimes hard work and that's not a message anyone wants to pay for.

Few makers ever want to spend the time and resource to show the complete professional process, that begins before you shoot and can finish weeks, even months after a project wraps on set.

Take pre production. Lenses and contacts have to be cleaned, sensors tested and cleaned (numerous times), drives and cf cards formatted, firewire cables and backups tested along with multiple computers.  That doesn't even include the charging of 12 or so batteries.

That can easily take a day and who wants to see a first assistant sitting at a table with a white cloth diligently cleaning lens contacts and firing blank frames into a computer.  (The camera/computer pre production really should be shown by all makers because it would cut down their complaint calls by 95%, but it's never really put out there).  It's funny because losing this day can mean a disaster on set.  I've heard a lot of photographers say my ______________ is crap because it crashed, but how many of them really went through a detailed process of preparing their equipment and testing everything before working?

The shoot day is really all anyone wants to see, since there are models on set and people are running around saying lovely, fabulous, etc. and from the outside it looks like fun.  If a software glitches, an image moires, or focus is missed that stuff is never seen as everyone has a brand to protect.

Anyone that tells you they never have a camera problem is probably standing on a manufacturer or dealers stage at a trade show, because no professional camera is perfect or bulletproof . . . that's why everyone owns or rents multiple backups.  This stuff is complicated and once again, either somebody is fibbing or doesn't work their equipment that hard.

The next process, intermediate post production where we process out jpegs and make web galleries, edits and contact sheets also falls into the boring category.  Who wants to see two red eyed techs or assistants, drinking red bull,  standing over an I-mac making adjustments and waiting for jpegs, or a tech trying to balance skin tones from an over sensitive digital camera.  Nothing sexy in that.  

Try to match skin tones of 14 subjects and still  hold the integrity of the surrounding image and do this on 1,2000 images a night.  I doubt if that will ever make a you tube video.

(Actually, give us a camera that shoots less sensitive skin tones that are easy to match and for my business, that's something to really talk about).

Then the final process of selecting images, making retouching markups, processing and retouching out to final is the one thing that every medium format maker should show and never does, because that is the only step in the process where medium format really excels over the 35mm competition.

You can learn phocus, c-1, lightroom, sinar capture, dxo whatever, (and you should), but in reality at this stage of the process 95% of all images of importance are processed in photoshop.  I know . . . horrors of horrors, but it's a fact.  To add fuel to this thought 95% of all images of importance and manipulated heavily in post production and once again the sharpness and details of medium format make this easier for the retoucher when working a file close, deep and especially when multiple images are combined.  Also one thing medium format fails to mention is that due to this sharpness, it's damn hard to tell a 21mpx image from a 40 mpx image if you uprezz in the raw convertor.  I shoot a p21+ next to a p31+ and I can promise you we work an image deep and most of the time I either forget or can't tell which image is from which back.

This is a simple image (these are fast screen shots) shot with a Contax and I think with a p21+ and when it gets to final (we're not there yet), it will have more layers than a government bailout program.  It's not that it wasn't good out of camera, or the model needed really any work, it's just in the world of digital capture and professional image making it takes a lot of post work to get to final, a lot of suggestions from clients, creatives and the whole post production team.  If this part fails, all that effort went for nothing so post production is not something to be passed over lightly.





It also takes a view from multiple platforms.  It needs to be printed large and viewed web small as both uses have equal importance and what looks great full page, can look kind of plastic on the web.  Different mediums require a different look.

Regardless, Fred what you want, need, should see before plopping down even a buck fifty for a piece of equipment you probably never will see, or know of the issues until you write the check.  

JR
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 01:16:23 PM by James R Russell » Logged

fredjeang
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« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2010, 04:08:17 PM »
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Thanks a lot James for this post.

Actually the sample you provided is the kind of pictures i would like to see more often, even if screen shot.



When I watch the crop, I'm pleased: real work situation. I know what can be extracted in pp, not like the over sharpened pics that are spread most of the time.

About that, I don't know if there is not a cultural tendency, built by the internet brain washing from decades about resolution. Resolution is fine but this is just one little part of the equation as you pointed.
So what is valuable now, are on one side the bluring experiments of the micro-stockish stuff or the Nasa satelites resolutions for landscapes leaves. But I find this resolution crusade actually giving detailed-cold-rigid imagery. That would suit perfectly for a dictature's propaganda.


But still, the MF manufacturers should really make an effort. Leica spent a fortune in fake fashion shooting in Cuba, and new-rich sophisticated tales for their rangefinders, so I guess there is money for doing big production when they want. Isn't that funny that Zacuto did the first video testing that could have been qualify realistic. If Zacuto can, Phase, Hassy and Co can also. Not in YouTube maybe, in their own website and 100% samples on request for their clients.


Who wants to tether any more after seen that? : http://www.peterlindbergh.com/#FILMS/15
Enjoy the movie.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 09:37:06 AM by fredjeang » Logged
John R Smith
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Still crazy, after all these years


« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2010, 06:09:45 AM »
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A really good post from James, thank you for that. It makes me very thankful that I deal with un-temperamental subjects like churches and boats.

Thinking more about what I would personally really like to see in a new MF digital back (compared to my Hass CFV-39) -

* Not at all more megapixels. Unless it somehow means really enhanced IQ at small print sizes as well as huge ones.

* A truly useable ISO 800 would be great, rather than files which are crawling with noise.

* And please, not a bigger screen on the back, but just one which I can actually see outdoors on a bright day.

* And please, please, please - a battery level indicator!

John
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« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2010, 12:53:11 PM »
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BC wrote,

"it will have more layers than a government bailout program.  It's not that it wasn't good out of camera, or the model needed really any work, it's just in the world of digital capture and professional image making it takes a lot of post work to get to final, a lot of suggestions from clients, creatives and the whole post production team."


To me, that statement sums up what has become one of the failings of the new digital 'reality'.  Just because you can, does it,necessarily, mean you should?   (by 'you' I mean the collective 'you' and not BC)

Will that in mind, will your client sell one more pair of jeans or footwear based on all the additional effort expected in post ?

Again,BC, this is directed generically and not specifically at you or the linked image.

MT
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