Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: [1] 2 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: basICColor DISCUS  (Read 9623 times)
Czornyj
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1436



WWW
« on: October 04, 2010, 11:29:41 AM »
ReplyReply

http://www.basiccolor.de/cms/de/07about/erlkoenig.html
It seems to be a very interesting, new product! Does anyone know anything something more about that sensor? The tech specs look pretty impressive...
Logged

Mark D Segal
Contributor
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7054


WWW
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2010, 11:41:44 AM »
ReplyReply

Could be interesting if they published this in a language I understand.
Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
probep
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 149


« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2010, 12:12:03 PM »
ReplyReply

Could be interesting if they published this in a language I understand.
See  section "BasICColor Discus" in http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-10055-10942
Hm, $1200... And I suppose it works only with basICColor.
Logged
Mark D Segal
Contributor
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7054


WWW
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2010, 12:17:01 PM »
ReplyReply

Thanks for that link. OK, now that we see what the product is, at that price point it raises a question (and by now age-old debate) about whether one should invest in an i1 Pro spectro and use it for everything from display to print, or buy this product for the display and a spectro for the prints. I know much has been written on this issue, but this may be a good place to discuss any up-dated insights on the question.
Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Czornyj
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1436



WWW
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2010, 12:55:12 PM »
ReplyReply

Hm, $1200...
I just knew it's gonna have some drawbacks...
Logged

tho_mas
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1696


« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2010, 01:09:04 PM »
ReplyReply

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-10055-10942
Quote
It can measure any type of computer monitor, including wide gamut ones, and incorporates eight different calibrations that correspond to the most common display technologies, including LED.
those eight different tables can be updated... i.e. you can basically choose which monitor characteristics you want to have stored in the "discus". This is why the guys at BasICColor say it will measure also future displays with even larger gamuts accurately.
Generally these guys really know their stuff... so I assume the "discus" will be a fine device.
Software is BC Display, yes. That does not necessarily mean that other softwares won't support the "disucs" at some ... only begs the question in how far other softwares can take advantage of the respective correction tables.
As BC Display supports full hardware calibration on all Eizo CG and NEC SV monitors it is usable at least for users of these displays.
Logged
pherold
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 133


« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2010, 01:20:51 PM »
ReplyReply

If it does all that it claims, this will certainly fill a niche in the industry at the moment.  Wide gamut high end displays often times don't calibrate all that accurately using standard colorimeters.  For accuracy we frequently suggest people use spectrophotometers to calibrate these.  But spectros are more likely to muddle up the shadow detail because they tend to be noisier, so a good quality colorimeter might be just the ticket for a high end user who needs accuracy and good shadow detail - and is willing to pay for it!  For optional reading, we discussed the differences between spectros and colorimeters in a recent newsletter article.
Logged

-Patrick Herold
  Tech Support
www.chromix.com
stefohl
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 59


WWW
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2010, 02:01:18 PM »
ReplyReply

According to Karl Koch, Eizo will support the Discus in a future version of ColorNavigator. Basiccolor is preparing a SDK, so it's possible that we will see support for Discus in other software as well.
Logged

Stefan Ohlsson
Projektor
www.projektorutbildning.se
digitaldog
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9226



WWW
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2010, 03:36:36 PM »
ReplyReply

If it does all that it claims, this will certainly fill a niche in the industry at the moment.  Wide gamut high end displays often times don't calibrate all that accurately using standard colorimeters.  For accuracy we frequently suggest people use spectrophotometers to calibrate these.  But spectros are more likely to muddle up the shadow detail because they tend to be noisier, so a good quality colorimeter might be just the ticket for a high end user who needs accuracy and good shadow detail - and is willing to pay for it!  For optional reading, we discussed the differences between spectros and colorimeters in a recent newsletter article.

The question I have (and playing devils advocate) is just what is meant by “Wide gamut high end displays often times don't calibrate all that accurately using standard colorimeters.”? You ask for D50 or D65, or CCT 6500K and the results are off a fixed amount? And if so, is this a big deal? The numbers are just that, numbers. Do we all agree that by asking for D65 from the same device using differing software packages we get D65? Or that we automatically get a match to the print? I find I have to start at some value, then massage the values to get a visual match. If my NEC SpectraView matches my GTI booth when I enter CCT 6750K because D65 and D55 didn’t produce a visual match, do I care if its really 6750K or any value as long as they match?

I’m not suggesting having filter matrices that can be updated are not useful. Or that having a Spectrophotometer being used as a spectroradiometer that could measure blacks as well as a colorimeter would not be a good thing. I’m wondering if the lack of these things is a huge big deal making it impossible to calibrate a display to produce a match?
Logged

Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers”
http://digitaldog.net/
tho_mas
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1696


« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2010, 04:24:04 PM »
ReplyReply

The question I have (and playing devils advocate) is just what is meant by “Wide gamut high end displays often times don't calibrate all that accurately using standard colorimeters.”? You ask for D50 or D65, or CCT 6500K and the results are off a fixed amount? And if so, is this a big deal? The numbers are just that, numbers. Do we all agree that by asking for D65 from the same device using differing software packages we get D65? Or that we automatically get a match to the print? I find I have to start at some value, then massage the values to get a visual match. If my NEC SpectraView matches my GTI booth when I enter CCT 6750K because D65 and D55 didn’t produce a visual match, do I care if its really 6750K or any value as long as they match?

I’m not suggesting having filter matrices that can be updated are not useful. Or that having a Spectrophotometer being used as a spectroradiometer that could measure blacks as well as a colorimeter would not be a good thing. I’m wondering if the lack of these things is a huge big deal making it impossible to calibrate a display to produce a match?
I think the issue here is not to tune the display to visually match a certain white point target (or to get a colormetric match, if this is desired for some reason).
The issue are the high saturated colors current colorimeters are not able to measure accurately. Software correction tables (as in BC Display, iColor Display or Color Navigator) being designed for colorimeters that are actually only capable of measuring ~ sRGB primaries are a good workaround... but they are just that: a workaround. So if the measured gamut of the display stored in the monitor profile is too large, everything looks de-saturated, if it's too small, everything looks over-saturated. Now, if the greens are too de-saturated, the blues too saturated, the yellows have a slight color shift towards red ...and so on ... it gets tricky to manually fine tune the monitor hardware (i.e. the color chanels) to get a good gamut representation of the display. It's doable, but it's not exactly as one would guess it's supposed to be.
So a measurement device that is capable of measuring higher saturated colors and at the same time a more accurate grey scale (due to temperature compensation... which is in fact a serious issue with colorimeters) is basically a very good thing... IMO.
Logged
digitaldog
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9226



WWW
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2010, 04:28:57 PM »
ReplyReply

I think the issue here is not to tune the display to visually match a certain white point target (or to get a colormetric match, if this is desired for some reason).
The issue are the high saturated colors current colorimeters are not able to measure accurately. Software correction tables (as in BC Display, iColor Display or Color Navigator) being designed for colorimeters that are actually only capable of measuring ~ sRGB primaries are a good workaround...

I suppose that’s possible but I’ve used both an “sRGB” expecting colorimeter and a Spectrophotometer on my wide gamut displays and find the disconnect is in the white point. It does beg the question why some high end display manufacturers do allow us to use these sRGB expecting Colorimeters on wide gamut units. Hence my questions to Patrick. Is there consensus that the issues with older Colorimeters affects wider gamut colors? Do we know what colors the software even sends to the units and how they might be affected?
Logged

Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers”
http://digitaldog.net/
tho_mas
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1696


« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2010, 05:04:59 PM »
ReplyReply

Is there consensus that the issues with older Colorimeters affects wider gamut colors?
As far as I know from some talk to FOGRA guys: defintely yes. Correction tables are based on averaged device-deviations for certain colors (and this only works for the combination of both the display and the respective colorimeter). Highest tolerances are accepted in particular in cyan and in deep blues. An ~ sRGB colorimeter simply can't "see" a deep blue of a wide gamut display (the 0-0-127 patch for example). So a correction table says: "if this particular colorimter measures value ABC for this color patch on this particular monitor it's actually DEF" and so on... (ABC and DEF stands for certain XYZ resp. Lab color values).
I'm sure there is much more and it all depends on the sophisticated maths of the programmers ... but this is the basic principle ... AFAIK!
Logged
digitaldog
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9226



WWW
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2010, 03:07:59 PM »
ReplyReply

An ~ sRGB colorimeter simply can't "see" a deep blue of a wide gamut display (the 0-0-127 patch for example). So a correction table says: "if this particular colorimter measures value ABC for this color patch on this particular monitor it's actually DEF" and so on... (ABC and DEF stands for certain XYZ resp. Lab color values).
I'm sure there is much more and it all depends on the sophisticated maths of the programmers ... but this is the basic principle ... AFAIK!

Maybe someone can look this over and explain. This is my NEC 3090 calibrated to the same target values with a very old RevA EyeOne Display-2 on the left and an EyeOne Pro RevD on the right. Now of course this is generated using the device itself but the gamut map (the full color being the gamut of the measured display) seem oddly similar with a smaller gamut in greens (which you’d expect from the sRGB assuming instrument).

Logged

Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers”
http://digitaldog.net/
Czornyj
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1436



WWW
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2010, 01:14:00 PM »
ReplyReply

Thanks a lot for all the information. There's an introductory offer till 30.11, so I've decided to make an order.
Logged

Mark Paulson
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 89


« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2010, 07:41:31 PM »
ReplyReply

Thanks a lot for all the information. There's an introductory offer till 30.11, so I've decided to make an order.

Where did you find the special offer?
Logged
Czornyj
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1436



WWW
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2010, 08:58:21 AM »
ReplyReply

Where did you find the special offer?


One of the LuLa forum members had told me, that there was a special offer at Photokina - so I asked at basICColor, and it is still valid (666Euro + VAT in preorder)
Logged

WombatHorror
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 299


« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2010, 11:29:29 PM »
ReplyReply

I suppose that’s possible but I’ve used both an “sRGB” expecting colorimeter and a Spectrophotometer on my wide gamut displays and find the disconnect is in the white point. It does beg the question why some high end display manufacturers do allow us to use these sRGB expecting Colorimeters on wide gamut units. Hence my questions to Patrick. Is there consensus that the issues with older Colorimeters affects wider gamut colors? Do we know what colors the software even sends to the units and how they might be affected?

There is a huge disconnect in the white point but there are plenty of others as well. Look at the gamut measured on both and you can get terribly different results. They track saturation curves totally wrong too.
Logged
WombatHorror
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 299


« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2010, 11:31:08 PM »
ReplyReply

Maybe someone can look this over and explain. This is my NEC 3090 calibrated to the same target values with a very old RevA EyeOne Display-2 on the left and an EyeOne Pro RevD on the right. Now of course this is generated using the device itself but the gamut map (the full color being the gamut of the measured display) seem oddly similar with a smaller gamut in greens (which you’d expect from the sRGB assuming instrument).



spectraview just so happens to apply wide gamut compensation matrices to the i1D2 devices
measure the gamut using say Colorimetre HCFR and you'll see a huge difference
or use a DTP94b
Logged
Czornyj
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1436



WWW
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2011, 01:20:50 PM »
ReplyReply

I finally got my DISCUS today! It's build like a heavy-armoured tank, and works like a charm! The calibration is precise as expected, I've also cross-validated it with my i1pro and the wtpt and colorants coordinates are spot-on... I'm waiting axiously for new basICColor dispaly 5, that should introduce more functions and possibilities, but my initial impressions based on v.4.24 are very positive alredy.





« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 01:38:58 PM by Czornyj » Logged

trinityss
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 36


« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2011, 11:47:06 AM »
ReplyReply

Cool!

Have you measured dark colors and compared with the i1?
What about the stability? What if you measure after 5', 10', 30', 60', 120'?

kr,
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad