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Author Topic: Sigma SD10  (Read 27196 times)
Ray
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« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2004, 06:18:47 PM »
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If you have no need for high ISO the lack of it is not a deficiency.
Erik,
Well, as Jonathan says, it's pretty restrictive being inhibited from using higher than ISO 400 as a lot of owners of the Kodak 14n have probably discovered, but I'd accept this is something one could live with, just as one could live without the need or desire to take 20 sec. night shots.

So we are left with only one positive, that I can think of - supposedly superior color rendition at low ISO's. One thing the dpreview comparison clearly shows is that the SD10 has less color noise, an advantage unfortunately offset by a tendency to color clipping, resulting in halos.

There might be differences straight out of the box with little post processing, but I'd be doubtful if any 'preferred' color rendition from the SD10 could not be created in post processing of a 10D image. Could be wrong though.  Smiley
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janus
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« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2004, 02:53:07 PM »
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[font color=\'#000000\']The general consensus is that it can hold its own against 6MP cameras, which I confirm.

No camera is perfect. For example, the new Kodak 14 in its Nikon or Canon versions have terrible moire issues. And one can pick on any camera. I am sure I can pick on your camera as well.

People generally expect too much from their digitals, only to be disappointed. Yes, I am sometimes disappointed with my Sigma SD10 as well, but with my previous film equipment, I have gotten plenty of lousy shots as well. That's the reality of photographing.

With a film camera you depend on film and choose it carefully for each task.

Likewise, why should I expect my digital camera to be able to mimmick all those films out there? That's a ridiciculous and unrealsitic way of thinking.

We getting closer to realizing this, but we are not there yet.

I am a very picky person, yet I chose the Sigma. Why? I just loved what the Foveon sensor is capable of under a limited set of conditions, which fitted my type of shooting just to a T. Is that a reason for others to put the camera down?

The oriignal Kodak 14n, and even the Contax Digital SLR are capabale of excellent results if the conditions are perfect. People who shoot under those conditions do not need to be criticized for making a choice for Kodak or Contax, no matter how many problems the camera has outside those parameters.

Meanwhile we press the manufacturers to address those issues, as they are serious, and I agree with you. I already sent my wish list to Sigma, and they responded.

They read the forums. As the SD10 is a little better than the SD9, I hope that the SD11 will be different by a mile.

I did not invest heavily in Sigma lenses, as I may jump ship for another brand for a second camera/body.

For example, I am extremely curious about the new Fuji S3.

Time will tell. Will Contax try again? Others? What about the upcoming digital Leica R?

In the meanwhile, while I wait for a more perfect camera, I shoot SD10. Laugh at me all you want. He who has the last laugh, has the best laugh.




  [/font]
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Erik M
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« Reply #42 on: May 07, 2004, 10:28:11 AM »
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Sure did. Of course we all know that would have triggered a red highlight warning on the preview screen. The photographer then would have simply had to have reduced the exposure with the exposure compensation dial when re-taking the photo. It just goes to show how operator error is a constant both in film and digital shooting. Technology is no substitute for proper technique. After all, with the highlight warning and histogram there simply is no excuse for blown highlights, especially when you have the opportunity to re-take the shot.
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Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2004, 04:29:44 PM »
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[font color=\'#000000\']I'm guessing you wrote that gushing review...

BTW, nice chromatic aberration in the water droplets.[/font]
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Ray
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« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2004, 09:10:35 PM »
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[font color=\'#000000\']I would have to agree with Janus on this point. All the test images I have seen support the view that the 3MP SD9/10 is roughly equivalent to a 6MP Bayer type DSLR with around 1.6x cropping (ie. excluding the Contax full frame 6MP) in terms of absolute resolution and general image quality, within certain limitations. In fact, this is probably the chief cause of so much interest in this technology. How can a 3MP camera perform so well? Wouldn't a true 10MP Foveon type sensor be truly remarkable? When is it going to happen?[/font]
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janus
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« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2004, 10:33:42 PM »
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I actually do not see Michael as a prime source for camera reviews. He reviews them only when he has one (like the Sony F818 he recently got). I was kind of saying it teasingly, to make the point that the Sigma SD10 seems like the unknown ace in the hole that nevertheless is a very capable camera.

Kinda' disappointed by the lack of responses here.
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Ray
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« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2004, 07:30:53 PM »
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Kinda' disappointed by the lack of responses here.
Janus,
Well, you can see the problem here! As a 3MP camera, the SD10 has no peer. It'll beat the socks off Canon's D30, for example. But it is not necessarily a better deal than Canon's 300D. You might even claim that the SD10 can produce marginally better quality images than either the 6MP 300D or 10D, but I think that will depend on the quality of the attached lens.

Let's look at the facts. The 300D is considerably less expensive than the SD10, has better low light performance and has a greater range of high quality lenses that can be attached.

It's not clear that the SD10 can produce better quality images than the 300D, but if it can and these differences are clearly noticeable on large prints using a wide range of lenses, then that would be something to get excited about.  
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janus
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« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2004, 02:06:13 PM »
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Well, actually I am thinking about a second high quality camera that does well in low light, although I don't shoot that much in low light. Before the SD10 I mostly shot Fuji Velvia and Provia, so having 100ISO now as my lowest ISO is actually twice the speed I was used to, and actually I often shot Velvia at 40!. Sigma makes a few excellent lenses, their 50mm macro, as indicated earlier, is absolutely top notch.

For my work, I don't need a large plethora of lenses. If the Sony F818 didn't have the noise problem, that would be my second camera. I am still stitting on the fence. Fuji S3? We will have to see.  

A camera with a great wide to tele zoom is ideal since you don't have to worry about all that dust on your sensor. All DSLRs still have dust problems (except the overpriced Olympus E10) and they need to address that in the same way as Olympus did.

Again, as I said, the Sigma shines within its limitations. In that respect it performs much better than the Kodak 14n, because the Sigma SD10 is not finicky at all.
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Quentin
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« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2004, 04:29:10 AM »
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I see the announcement by Polaroid of a point-and-shoot camera using the Foveon sensor, but nothing yet about a bigger chip in a dslr.  

My fantasy was for a 10mp full frame Foveon in a new Contax N2.  Surely a marriage between Contax and Foveon would be ideal?  Even 6mp would be interesting.

Quentin
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Quentin Bargate, ARPS, Author, photographer entrepreneur and senior partner of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2013
keats
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« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2004, 05:12:13 AM »
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check this out:
http://www.d-shell.net/

an adapter for the following lenses on the sigma?
SIGMA SA( Auto )
       CANON EF ( Auto )
       NIKON-F (Manual )
       MINOLTA MD( Manual )
       LEICA-R ( Manual )
       CONTAX/Yashica ( Manual )
       PENTAX-K/M42 ( Manual )
       TOPCON-UNI ( Manual )
      
I don't own a digital camera yet, but I'm am very intrigued by the sigma sd10 and foveon chip.  the original file photos on pbase.com are amazing.  seems to be hands down the best bang for my buck.  I don't think I'll pull the trigger until I see images from the Leica Digilux 2.  Sounds like an amazing lens, leica form factor, intuitive controls, and possibly lower noise levels at an estimated $1800.  Will that be the best money spend?

Regardless, as of today sigma at an 'iso 100 niche' is pretty amazing stuff.

-Keats
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« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2004, 04:22:34 PM »
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Alf,

The information you're providing is incorrect. A 6 MP sensor has 6 million photosites. Each of these contribute to resolution.

The Foveon 3.4 MP sensor has just 3.4 million photosites contributing to resolution. Why? Because the other two sets of 3.4 million photosites sit underneath the first set. The bottom two layers are recording the same spacial information as the top layer.

The reality is that the Bayer matrix does degrade resolution by about 30%, so the Foveon has some theoretical advantages, especially when it comes to colour purity. But, the better demosaicing algorithms have become highly accurate in recent years.

Truth of the matter is that Foveon has not set the world on fire. Fascinating technology, but so far other than Sigma and Polaroid there haven't been any takers.

Michael
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Ray
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« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2004, 04:31:35 PM »
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One of the flaws in modern sioence is that too many scientists ignore that with which they are uncomfortable. So they frantically hold on to what they feel is comfortable for their own understaning. A kind of "fit" between what they would like to believe and what they have chosen to fit into that category.
Janus,
I'd say you've got this the wrong way round. It is more likely the non-scientist who will ignore that with which he/she is uncomfortable. A basic tenet of the scientific method is to question everything and not ignore the evidence.

If you've got any evidence that the SD10 approaches the quality of the 1Ds, let's see it. And I don't mean hearsay and second hand reports from unknown authorities, but comparison images taken using sound scientific methodology, which means, same subject, similar quality lens, same FOV, use of tripod and remote release etc.  Cheesy
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Erik M
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« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2004, 10:08:29 AM »
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This is a silly debate. Sigma and Foveon have *never* positioned their camera or the F7 chip as a competitor to *any* 10+MP imaging device, Bayer or otherwise.

But I would add that the S9 and the SD10 are different. The current Foveon chip in the SD10 does not aritfact (or has greatly reduced artifacting) due to its microlenses like the SD9 did. If you look at the Imaging-Resource review B&W resolution shots, you'll find that the SD10 test shots look a good deal different than the SD9. Let's not base our arguments on a camera that is not the current model. (One a side note, the SD9 may have shown aritfacting on B&W resolution shots, but I'm not aware of any review that could actually point out *made* up detail in real shots.) And since we like to bump up the color saturation in our shots and clone out farm houses, what's wrong with a little made up detail as well?  Just kidding. But you get my point. Finally, at PMA I saw E-1 shots and shots from the new Kodak 14N. Both had visible moire. So I guess this brings us to this point: both technologies have their strengths and weaknesses. I don't think we needed this thread to realize that.
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Ray
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« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2004, 05:12:48 PM »
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The argument that Canon has more lenses than Sigma is kind of silly, because do you know of any photographer who owns them all? How many do you really need? It depends on what type of stuff you shoot. For some people one lens may be enough, for others just a few, etc.

The SD10's great advantage is that I generally do not need blown out highlights, and that was a crucial deciding factor for me, Nothing could be worse, in my opinion, than blown out highlights. That's data lost forever.
The range, type and quality of available lenses can be a crucial factor in choosing a camera system. When I switched from Minolta to Canon a few years ago, it was primarily because of Canon's Image Stabilisation system and the existence in particular of the 100-400 IS zoom. I was also encouraged by the fact that it had a better range of tilt & shift lenses than any other 35mm manufacturer and a range of really top notch lenses, some of which I might one day be able to afford.

If you check out Photodo's site, you'll find only a small handful of Sigma lenses make it to grade 4 and above. The highest is 4.2. But more significant for me would be the lack of an IS system.

Nevertheless, an SD10 coupled with the Sigma 300-800 F5.6 zoom would be a very nice package.  Cheesy

I haven't read anything on the SD10's dynamic range. Are you claiming it's significantly better than that of the 10D?
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Erik M
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« Reply #54 on: February 18, 2004, 12:37:41 PM »
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Ray,

You can download the Sigma SPP software from Sigma. If you visit the Sigma forum on dpreview you'll find people who will give you RAW files, including myself. (I've even mailed CDs full of raw files to people--both good and bad shots.) There is even an X3F server somewhere. (Ask Laurence Matson about it on the forum). Playing with and printing the raw files and using the Fill Light feature is the only way you'll be able to judge dynamic range. I have no opinion on the matter. I just want people to have practical evidence when making a decision. I hope my information has helped you.
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janus
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« Reply #55 on: March 18, 2004, 06:38:10 PM »
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Michael, you are doing your readers and the photographing crowd a disservice with a remark like that! You really ought to put this camera higher on your priory list. It's been out already for a while. Also, if you wait longer, new toys will come on the market, and before you know it, the Sigma SD10 is totally forgotten. This camera deserves better attention.

Kodak found the SD10 body good enough to make the slr/c out of it (well, almost, with some changes!)

As a consolation to Frank (and everyone else, for that matter),

http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/sigma/sd...iew/index.shtml

has a review. he says the camera has "stunning image quality". Couldn't agree more.

As a closing thought:

Just a passing shot of upcoming spring:

http://www.pbase.com/image/26856176/original
OR:
http://www.pbase.com/image/26856176/original.jpg
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Lin Evans
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« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2004, 02:59:27 PM »
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There is no doubt that the SD9/SD10 is a dandy camera, with lots of potential for ideal shooting conditions.

Like any tool, it does best when used within the limitations of its range of abilities. There is no perfect camera for all situations, and that includes the SD9/SD10. Lens issues are important - the reason I gave up my SD9 was precisely because as a professional, I can't justify purchasing a camera body with limited lens selections.

For my Canon and Kodak bodies, I can use Canon, Nikon, Sigma, Tamron and a significant number of other options. For the SD9/SD10 the choices are Sigma - that's it. Until Sigma can provide alternative mounts making a wider lens selection available, they will severely limit the desirability of these otherwise fine instruments.

As far as resolution is concerned - I found the SD9 to be equivalent to my 10D, but significantly less than my 1DS. This is true in practice as well as in resolution chart measurements. Regardless of the very excellent pixel level detail and edge roll-off provided by the Foveon chip, the pixel matrix limits the enlargeability of the capture to less than even a six megapixel bayer. Edge artifacting is visible on any straight lines in images which fall outside 180, 90 or 45 degrees and this detracts from some potential use, especially for architectural subjects where significant enlargement is desired.

The SD9/SD10 cameras have wonderful applications within their limitations just as do the Canon 10D, 1D, 1DS and new 1D Mark II. If there were lens alternatives, I would still have one, but sadly upper management at Sigma has opted out of that possibility, at least for now.

Best regards,

Lin
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Lin
Alf B.
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« Reply #57 on: March 27, 2004, 05:51:10 AM »
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Lin

 "For my Canon and Kodak bodies, I can use Canon, Nikon, Sigma, Tamron and a significant number of other options. For the SD9/SD10 the choices are Sigma - that's it."

Thats incorrect...Both the SD9 and SD10 take M42 screw mount lenses (via a cheap Pentax K to M42 adapter, available in almost every camera store or a CSM422 SA to M42 adapter available from www.d-shell.net) and it takes Pentax K mount lenses (via a very easy small mod to each lens).
D-shell are already working on a SA to Canon FD adapter, a SA to Nikon F adapter and a SA to Contax, SA to Minolta AF and more so as a Sigma user I hardly consider my lens choices as limited.
Besides, as I am not well off, the easily available very sharp but very cheap M42 primes currently suit all my requirements.  

I read somewhere that the Canon EOS mount is 95% compatable with the Sigma SA mount and at least one guy managed to get an EOS mount lens fitted to a Sigma.

Alf B.
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janus
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« Reply #58 on: April 08, 2004, 02:12:12 PM »
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The enthusiasm among SD9 and SD10 users is so high, that a second communal shoot, centering around the theme of "oppostie seasons" was hosted on the pbase website. Check it out:

http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/change_seasons_1


P.S.:
The earlier shoot was called "Worlds Apart....A World Together" and was the most popular gallery on pbase for a while.

http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/sigma_shoot_1


So, as you can see, we are having fun too!
And did you know that this posting has gotten more than 7000+ views? That's far more than any other discussion here.

Can't complain.
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janus
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« Reply #59 on: April 25, 2004, 07:03:48 PM »
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I am just very curious, since this particular forum has had over 11,000 hits, if anybody besides myself, bought a Sigma SD9 or SD10? And what are your impressions?

Are you aware of the Sigma forum on http://www.dpreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forum=1027
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