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Author Topic: Phase One P40/45 vs Hasselblad H4d-40....What to Do?  (Read 20254 times)
Shrev94412
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« on: October 08, 2010, 01:55:33 PM »
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Let me first apologize....I am new to the forum and I am sure some of this has been covered as I have read a couple of existing posts.

I am a Nikon D3X user and I am looking to move up to Medium format. I have been looking for some time now to make this move. I shoot Fashion, Glamour, Landscape and moving into Bridal shooting. I do both studio shooting and on location and a lot of handheld shooting. The past week I have spent time with both the Dallas Texas Hasselblad Rep and The Phase One rep. Let me say they both are wonderful to work with and very straight forward.

During my reviews I shot both cameras. Not at same time as an optimum comparison would be but, similar settings. I understand that this is not the best way to compare. After doing this, I am VERY confused as what to do for various reasons.

The two Systems I am looking at are as follows:
Hasselblad H4D-40, Hasselblad 28mm and Hasselblad 50-110 Lens
Phase One 645DF, P40 or P45 Back with Schneider 28mm Lens and Mamayia 55-110 Lens

1) It seems to me that the image quality from the Phase One 645DF with a P40 or P45 back and an LS 80mm Schneider Lens is a better quality image.

2) The Hasselblad has way better ergonomics to me.

3) The Hasselblad as tested was set to +1.7 EV (I read on this site that this is typical with Hasselblad)

4) The focus was inconsistent on the Hasselblad but not the Phase One.

5) The Phase One 645DF body seems very plastic.

6) I like Capture One. I even pulled in some of my Nikon .NEF Raw files and It seemed to me that the Capture One software processed the Nikon RAW file with much better image quality than Photoshop ACR. I also like the Phocus Software from Hasselblad. (Makes me want to go reprocess a bunch of Nikon Images in Capture One…Geeez!!)

7) Phase One Does not have an LS 50-110 Lens, They do have the old 55-110 Mamayia

So, it seems to me that overall phase one is better except for ergonomics and quality. What do I not like about Phase One? It seems to me that its resale value is terrible. Even their trade in program is 50% except for the back which is 90% on the first eighteen months. I have enjoyed that I have lost very little money as I have traded up my Nikon Gear over the years. I have even made a little money on some Nikon lenses I sold after their large price increase last year.

What I have not tried is the Phase One back P40 or P45 on an H2F Body with Hasselblad Lenses. This would solve the Ergonomics issue and seemingly cheap body of the DF and bring price down substantially but my concern with that solution is ….Are the Schneider Lenses better that the Hasselblad Lenses??? Are the lenses contributing greatly to the image quality when shooting the Phase One solution or is the Phase One back the Major contributor to Image Quality? Are the Lenses of Hasselblad and Schneider comparable or is one substantially better.

I want sharp crisp Images with beautiful resolution and color. I need Flash Sync speed above a shutter speed of 250 (Nikon limitation) with strobes. I want those absolutely beautiful table book quality Landscape images with high Depth of field and beautiful resolution.

I like both Systems but each have pros and cons. Any Suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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BrendanStewart
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« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2010, 02:08:35 PM »
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Woops, just saw you are in Texas.

I have to say from my perspective, the Hassy made more sense. The closed system really appealed to us and Phocus has worked really well.  As wedding shooters we cannot fuss, we just need it to work, and Hasselblad has provided that for us.  The lens range also has real appeal. And all Hassy lenses are Leaf shutter.

I'm not saying the Mamiya system isn't good. You've listed some great reasons to like them. I'm just giving my experience. Also, we can modify NEF and CR2's in Phocus as well.

I've got some stuff here with Strobes: http://www.flickr.com/photos/symbolphotography/sets/72157624913368149/

That's with the H3DII-31. I have to say, it's a dream to use. Both systems lack 900k screens like the Nikons, but we shoot tethered a lot now with it and like the results better on the laptop screen.

If you have any questions on the Hasselblad system, feel free to PM me.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 02:15:15 PM by BrendanStewart » Logged
Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2010, 02:12:38 PM »
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Hi...

You have not mentioned phocus,,, and this I think is one of the major advantages of a Hasselblad back.

For most studio work you would mostly be able to keep within the latitude without the excellent fill and recover features, but I thing they are invaluable for landscape and bridal.

The clarity tool is also magic.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 02:14:42 PM by Dick Roadnight » Logged

Hasselblad H4, Sinar P3 monorail view camera, Schneider Apo-digitar lenses
Chris_Brown
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« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2010, 02:31:07 PM »
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I'd take a very close look at the supporting software and file management schema. Capture One was borne out of support for their camera backs. When Hasselblad merged/bought Imacon, they used their scanning software for their backs. Is Phocus a variant of Imacon's Flexcolor or is a complete rewrite?

Excellent results can be attained from both systems, but you will be married to the software.
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aaron
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« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2010, 02:40:59 PM »
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You mentioned that you haven't tried the Phase P40 - P45 on the H2F body......

If I remember correctly the Hassy 28 mm lens will not work on the H2F body  Embarrassed so that may narrow your options.
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Dustbak
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« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2010, 03:29:33 PM »
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A P40-P45 will not work on a H2F. A HCD28 will work on a H2F if it has a CF back attached.

I use Hasselblad. Their lenses are excellent but not at the same level as Schneider Digitars or Rodenstock HR. The difference is not large but it was visible to me. I don't know about the Schneider lenses for the P1 but I am sure they are excellent.

I now changed completely to the H, I preferred the ease of use of the H system over my Rollei X-Act. Having said that I am pretty sure I could have made the the P1/DF system work for me too.

It is beginning to get something like Nikon vs Canon. I also use Nikon...
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 03:33:38 PM by Dustbak » Logged
gazwas
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« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2010, 04:03:18 PM »
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My experience of testing the H4D-50 and the P40 was that straight out of the camera the Phase is a lot sharper. The Phase look is sharp, punchy, with plenty of contrast and I'm sure they must add some corrections to the files at capture. Hasselblad are the opposite. Its as if their RAW files are just as the camera chip captures and they leave the rest up to the photographer in Phocus.  My testing found you could easily sharpen and add contrast to the Blad files to the levels of the Phase backs and it seemed you could sharpen the Blad files more before signs of over sharpening.

I thought the Blad files looked a bit more film like where as the Phase backs were a smoother more digital look so very much down to a question of taste.

IMO the major draw of the Phase system is the Schneider glass and the abitity to use their new tilt/shift lenses.  A great shame Hasselblad don't allow this.     
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John.Williams
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« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2010, 04:13:03 PM »
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You can run the Phocus software and check it out yourself for free.

1. Download sample images here

2. Download Phocus here

If you are not registered, it will take a minute to register, then you are set to go.

We have found that if you know CaptureOne, it takes about 15 minutes to know Phocus. Tools are in different places, recipes are known as adjustments...

At least the readers of this forum would be able to move from speculative to knowing Smiley

The TruFocus on the H4D-40 is a real and valuable photographic tool (keeps the intended focus when the camera is repositioned after focusing) and you must experience this if possible - I have heard all the usual complaints and groans from those who have not even tried it, balanced by others who were impressed how it solves a real problem. Even some of the toughest Hasselblad critics, too.

If you are intellectually honest with your assessment, you will find that the Hasselblad H4D-40 stacks way up to the Phase One P40/45; that is difficult to do unless you get hands-on with both systems. Not just research nor the advice of salespeople. Or grumpy people Smiley

As far as tilt/shift, the HTS 1.5 works with the 28mm, 35mm, 50mm, 80mm, 100mm, 150mm, 210mm, and 300mm - 8 lenses.

John

If you are in Miami next week - come get your hands on this gear at Aperture Studios Thursday, Oct 14th (Digital Techs - training the evening before at OneSource 6-9PM)


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« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2010, 05:23:34 PM »
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I don't believe HTS works with any lens greater than 100mm.

Steven
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KevinA
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« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2010, 07:48:55 PM »
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Which system will earn you the most, Phaseone, Hasselblad or the Nikon? go with the one that keeps your bank account the healthiest.

Kevin.
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« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2010, 07:54:46 PM »
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If money is not an object, go with the system that has the best local support and feels best in your hand.  Which camera makes you want to shoot? That's the one to own. Both systems can produce fantastic images, but both have their real irritations. Which of C1 or Phocus do you prefer? You will be spending more time with one of those pieces of software than you will with your spouse, so you better be in love  Wink

Good luck and lets us know how it turns out.

- N.
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Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera
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« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2010, 11:56:11 PM »
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You can run the Phocus software and check it out yourself for free.

1. Download sample images here

2. Download Phocus here

If you are not registered, it will take a minute to register, then you are set to go.

We have found that if you know CaptureOne, it takes about 15 minutes to know Phocus. Tools are in different places, recipes are known as adjustments...

At least the readers of this forum would be able to move from speculative to knowing Smiley

The TruFocus on the H4D-40 is a real and valuable photographic tool (keeps the intended focus when the camera is repositioned after focusing) and you must experience this if possible - I have heard all the usual complaints and groans from those who have not even tried it, balanced by others who were impressed how it solves a real problem. Even some of the toughest Hasselblad critics, too.

If you are intellectually honest with your assessment, you will find that the Hasselblad H4D-40 stacks way up to the Phase One P40/45; that is difficult to do unless you get hands-on with both systems. Not just research nor the advice of salespeople. Or grumpy people Smiley

As far as tilt/shift, the HTS 1.5 works with the 28mm, 35mm, 50mm, 80mm, 100mm, 150mm, 210mm, and 300mm - 8 lenses.

John

If you are in Miami next week - come get your hands on this gear at Aperture Studios Thursday, Oct 14th (Digital Techs - training the evening before at OneSource 6-9PM)





Is that like saying if you know Adobe Photoshop, it will take you about 15 minutes to know Adobe Elements?  Grin


Steve Hendrix
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mtomalty
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« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2010, 12:33:46 AM »
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[quote ]
IMO the major draw of the Phase system is the Schneider glass and the abitity to use their new tilt/shift lenses.  A great shame Hasselblad don't allow this.     
[/quote]

If I'm not mistaken only one of the three recently announced Schneider lenses works
with Phase backs. The other two only cover 35mm DSLR's

Mark
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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2010, 01:20:39 AM »
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I use Hasselblad. Their lenses are excellent but not at the same level as Schneider Digitars or Rodenstock HR.
You can use Schneider Apo-Digitars on the Hasselblad with a view camera.
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Dustbak
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« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2010, 01:32:47 AM »
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Dick,

Do you ever read someone's post entirely?

Quote
I now changed completely to the H, I preferred the ease of use of the H system over my Rollei X-Act. Having said that I am pretty sure I could have made the the P1/DF system work for me too.

I used Schneider Digitars & Rodenstock HR with a view camera and CF(MS) back which is why I know these lenses are better than the H lenses. I preferred ease of use over a marginal improvement in lenses hence the X-act had to go.
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shaun
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« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2010, 01:55:12 AM »
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Hi

3) The Hasselblad as tested was set to +1.7 EV (I read on this site that this is typical with Hasselblad)

Wasn't aware that was the case. Seems a bit much to me, I would have thought a half stop. Had a search and can't see any reference to this.

Shaun
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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2010, 02:45:29 AM »
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Dick,

Do you ever read someone's post entirely?

I used Schneider Digitars & Rodenstock HR with a view camera and CF(MS) back which is why I know these lenses are better than the H lenses. I preferred ease of use over a marginal improvement in lenses hence the X-act had to go.
In you previous post, you did not state that you use, or had ever used, Apo-Digitars with a Hasselblad back.

English is my mother tongue, and I have been a Technical Author, and I do sometimes read every work in posts.
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Hasselblad H4, Sinar P3 monorail view camera, Schneider Apo-digitar lenses
stewarthemley
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« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2010, 05:05:12 AM »
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3) The Hasselblad as tested was set to +1.7 EV (I read on this site that this is typical with Hasselblad)

Oh dear, is this going to be yet another of those internet "facts" that is anything but. I find it interesting, putting it politely, that only one person has commented on the above. Expecting any cam/back comb to perform well almost two stops overexposed is not being sensible. Who decided this was a good setting? If it was the rep, then maybe he should just go work directly with Phase... he's certainly not doing Hasselblad any favours. And if it was yourself (understandable mistake if you don't know the system) I would still blame the rep for not setting it up correctly. It's possible one or two shots might need that sort of compensation but expecting them all to is stretching incredulity just a tad too far. If it was the camera, then it needs checking. I remember when I compared Phase with Hass I made a similar mistake but in H's favour. Tried them again when I knew how to set both up and found the file quality, when correctly processed, to be equal. For me then it became ergonomics, etc.

Regarding C1 vs Phocus. Someone above nailed it: C1 goes for impact in its default settings. Phocus assumes you know what sort of look you want and so starts with a fairly neutral look. And this would impact on apparent sharpness of any lens comparison, if left at default settings. Yes, I know you can set both up how you want but many times I have seen newbies "led astray" by C1's defaults.
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jduncan
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« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2010, 07:19:59 AM »
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4) The focus was inconsistent on the Hasselblad but not the Phase One.

Can you elaborate a little bit more?
I am confused, there are so many people that says that the AF on the hasselblad is very good (for MF), but I have noticed some months ago a  grow of the number of comments like yours. I am not saying you are not right. I just like to understand your findings a little better .
Thanks
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JonathanBenoit
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« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2010, 07:21:32 AM »
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Dick,

Do you ever read someone's post entirely?

I used Schneider Digitars & Rodenstock HR with a view camera and CF(MS) back which is why I know these lenses are better than the H lenses. I preferred ease of use over a marginal improvement in lenses hence the X-act had to go.


This statement does not help the OP. He is looking at slr and digital back combinations. At no point has he mentioned that he will also be buying a tech/view camera and if he did, the Schneider and Rodenstock lenses will work with any digital back. Although, your statement that they are better than Hasselblad lenses is correct, it is also correct that they are better than any lenses for Phase One / Mamiya as well. So it's moot point.
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