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Author Topic: Phase One P40/45 vs Hasselblad H4d-40....What to Do?  (Read 20284 times)
jsjphoto88
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« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2010, 08:53:25 PM »
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I was recently in the same situation and wound up purchasing the Hasselblad H4D-40 over the Phase One P40+ and have loved my decision.

I tested the two systems back to back for a day in my studio and found that although the quality was great with both systems, the H4D had some huge advantages (at least for my style of shooting).  As a fashion and beauty photographer, True Focus and APL are an absolute blessing (although really only noticeable with wide angle lenses at close distance).  I enjoyed the bigger, more responsive display screen on the H4D back (I found it much easier and faster to review images and check for sharpness than with Phase One backs), and found that I could shoot up to ISO 800 on the H4D with clean images without any need for noise reduction (PhaseOne needed to change to Sensor+ which had much more noticeable noise and a quarter of the resolution).  Phocus was easy to learn and there is apparently a new 2.6 update coming soon which allows real-time remote iPad/iPhone viewing (great for studio shoots to prevent art directors and clients from crowding around the monitor).

Another big factor in my decision was the lens choices.  I previously owned a Mamiya 645AFDII and 55-110 zoom, and had some major issues with this lens and was not about to repurchase this for a PhaseOne system.  Hasselblad on the other hand had the HC50-110 and the HCD35-90 and ALL of their lenses are leaf shutter which sync  up to 1/800 sec so this was another no brainier for me.  FYI: I was also considering the HC50-110 but ultimately purchased the HCD35-90 as it's faster, much more lightweight and with the slight crop of the H4D-40 has the same range as a 35mm 35-90 lens (unfortunately it's also twice the price of the 50-110!).
« Last Edit: October 09, 2010, 08:55:20 PM by jsjphoto88 » Logged
Shrev94412
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« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2010, 12:06:32 AM »
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I want to thank everyone for their input as to the question I originally asked for help. This has been quiet an experience to say the least.

I feel first I need to respond to a few statements I made which some individuals have asked for more information or clarification. The first was image focus and my statement regarding inconsistency of focus on the Hasselblad. It just seemed as we tested the H4D that some images were in focus and some were in focus but not exactly where we/I were placing the focus in the viewfinder. Now, I am not gonna deny that this could have been partly due to bad technique as I was not use to the camera, obviously. But, it was clear, it was an issue. Not major, but clearly not right on every shot. I do not have that problem with my Nikon D3X.....It is, most of the time, right on the money. Again, could have been poor technique and it would not stop me from buying Hasselblad.

Second, I made a comment regarding a +1.7 EV setting on the Hasselblad. I just looked down and noticed the camera was set at this setting. It was interesting because the day before I read the article listed below which commented as to the same. Read the following Article, Paragraph Titled "Image Quality-Methodology"

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/h3d50ii.shtml

I have no further comment except that I think I would need to spend more time with the Hasselblad H4D to confirm if that setting is really necessary.

Now lets get to what really is impacting my decision. Software! I downloaded both Capture One and Phocus and Hasselblad Raw images from the hasselblad site as referenced in an earlier post.

I am an advanced Photoshop user as I have been using it for years and have been to Adobe training all the way thru advanced courses. I am also a Lightroom user.

Let me say that I am VERY impressed with Capture One. I actually pulled up many of my Nikon D3X files and reprocessed them and was amazed. I also pulled up many of my Canon 5D Mark II files and it did an excellent job with those file as well. The software worked flawlessly with my DSLR files and in my testing with the Phase One Rep with the test images we took with the P40 and P45 backs. Yes, Capture one does apply some adjustment as default but I feel like it when it does this it creates a good starting point and I am okay with that. The software is VERY intuitive.

Phocus is another story. Personally I do not feel like it is "up to par" with Capture One. Phocus struggled with my Nikon D3X files and my Canon 5D Mark II files. Many times in Phocus I would click on a Nikon or Canon raw image thumbnail and the image preview would go black. I restarted the software and even rebooted and got the same result. Maybe I didn't set something up correctly??? Anyway, when I downloaded the Hasselblad sample Raw files, Phocus worked flawlessly. It does start with no adjustments so the images look a little bland till you step up some adjustments. I can see where in the end you would achieve a similar end result with both software platforms. By the way, I was running both on a Mac Workstation with Snow Leopard.

So at this point I am still indecisive as to which system to purchase. Hasselblad has both the lenses I need. Phase one only has One, the 28mm. Phase One does not have a new 50-110 zoom so, I would have to spend more money on several primes. I like Capture One much better than Phocus. I like the ergonomics of the Hasselblad better but, I think the V-Grip added the the Phase One 645DF body may solve that issue. I think Service and support will be similar. The Phase One System is more expensive. I think resale may be better for Hasselblad and it seems to be better built, my opinion. I am exhausted....LOL.

Again, Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. I can see why so many people rely on this forum.
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jsjphoto88
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« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2010, 02:23:56 AM »
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The first was image focus and my statement regarding inconsistency of focus on the Hasselblad. It just seemed as we tested the H4D that some images were in focus and some were in focus but not exactly where we/I were placing the focus in the viewfinder. Now, I am not gonna deny that this could have been partly due to bad technique as I was not use to the camera, obviously. But, it was clear, it was an issue. Not major, but clearly not right on every shot. I do not have that problem with my Nikon D3X.....

I had the same issue when I switched from a Canon to Mamiya 645AFDII years ago.  Medium-format is notoriously more sensitive than 35mm format and if shooting in natural light wide open you normally need to shoot at a much faster shutter speed than the standard 1/focal length formula.  (i.e. if shooting with a medium-format 80mm lens hand held will most likely need to shoot at 1/125 sec to get sharp images).  Also, shooting at f/2.8 on medium format is like shooting at f/1.2 or shallower on 35mm format - very easy to be off with your focal point.  Have you tried the PhaseOne DF camera compared to the H4D? 
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 02:29:13 AM by jsjphoto88 » Logged
Nick-T
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« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2010, 03:08:13 PM »
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Hi Shrev
Couple of quick points from a Hasselblad user. The H system AF is very good but you do need careful technique to make the most of it. There is absolutely no inherent focus problem inherent to Hasselblad (unless there was something seriously wrong with the camera you tested). I run a forum with over 1000 users so I think I can state the above with confidence.

The Luminous "review" comparing the Hasselblad 50MP multi-shot to the Phase P65 is I'm sorry to say, a very poor piece of journalism written by someone with good credentials but very poor knowledge of the Hasselblad system. IMO that review should not be on this site (which is known as an excellent source of information). The +1.7 EV thing is nonsense and as others have pointed out would seriously compromise your side-by-side tests.

In terms of ISO performance the H4D40 is in a class of it's own, and will out-perform the Phase cameras at full resolution, if ISO is important to you then I would test.

Finally Capture One is an excellent piece of software and does a superb job with 3rd party files. Phocus is much younger but is coming along in leaps and bounds, I do believe with the right hardware (Phocus likes a powerful graphics card) it's a worthy competitor to Capture One. Get a real expert to show you both pieces of software.

Nick-T
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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2010, 02:23:21 PM »
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The H system AF is very good but you do need careful technique to make the most of it. There is absolutely no inherent focus problem inherent to Hasselblad
Nick-T
... but at the Hasselbuddy event today we noticed that the H4D would not true-focus well with a lens hood on a big lens, as the focus assist light cannot see the whole subject!
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eronald
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« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2010, 03:27:39 PM »
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... but at the Hasselbuddy event today we noticed that the H4D would not true-focus well with a lens hood on a big lens, as the focus assist light cannot see the whole subject!

Why should it need the assist light to focus?

Edmund
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Nick-T
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« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2010, 03:59:53 PM »
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I'm guessing it was dark...
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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2010, 01:56:59 AM »
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Why should it need the assist light to focus?

Edmund
The modeling lights were not very bright... if they had been bright enough they would have grilled the model.
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eronald
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« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2010, 02:48:48 AM »
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The modeling lights were not very bright... if they had been bright enough they would have grilled the model.

I've done entire furniture shoots just with modeling lights - what you see is what you shoot Smiley

Edmund
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 02:50:48 AM by eronald » Logged
Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2010, 03:57:00 AM »
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I've done entire furniture shoots just with modeling lights - what you see is what you shoot Smiley

Edmund
With digi WB and a tripod... as long as the furniture stands still, it would not be a problem.
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stewarthemley
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« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2010, 04:20:11 AM »
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... but at the Hasselbuddy event today we noticed that the H4D would not true-focus well with a lens hood on a big lens, as the focus assist light cannot see the whole subject!

Which lens, precisely, Dick? I was there also, same day, same time, same modelling lights, using a 28, 50, 35-90, 120 macro, 150 and 210 on both an HD4 40 and 50 (yes, there was plenty of time/cameras/lenses!) and had zero trouble focussing. All had hoods on. The longest delay I had was about half a second focusing on a model with a black dress and very dark hair under a single modelling light. I doubt whether my 5D2 would have done much better. I found True Focus to be brilliant - a genuine innovation and far better than multi focussing points. You pick your spot, push a button, let go, recompose and shoot.

These points are highly relevant for the OP. You should not listen too much to other people. A little but not too much. Try the things for yourself under CORRECT conditions (none of this ludicrous 1.7+ stuff) and see what YOU think. Once you know the systems well you will be able to see what suits you. And I think you might then find some of the comments that pass as knowledge/facts on this forum (and others) to be anything but.
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James R Russell
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« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2010, 04:29:26 AM »
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if they had been bright enough they would have grilled the model.

Shot with modeling lights,  Aptus 22, Contax, 35mm Superrotator on a 100F day.

Nobody melted.

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stewarthemley
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« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2010, 04:58:54 AM »
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Just to add to the focus ability of Hasselblad in low light, these yesterday from the test day where Dick couldn't get his camera to focus. HD4-40, 35-90, 1600 iso, 1/40 at F5, +1EV, lack of sharpness - courtesy of me handholding. Obviously not any merit in the shots, just a quickly grabbed test by me to see what happens in that sort of light. Used True Focus on the glass (almost on the glass - couldn't see it, it was so dark) and the other shot on the Hass camera. Note that +1EV was used. Pretty dark. Fast previews direct from Phocus, nothing else done.

Edit: session timed out, second shot hopefully added
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KLaban
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« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2010, 06:27:13 AM »
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Nobody melted.

She would have had me hot under the collar and have melted my heart.

Lovely shot.
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eronald
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« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2010, 07:58:08 AM »
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Well, that's what I'd call a bird with a nicely feathered tail Smiley

Edmund

Shot with modeling lights,  Aptus 22, Contax, 35mm Superrotator on a 100F day.

Nobody melted.


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eronald
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« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2010, 07:59:04 AM »
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Well, that's what I'd call a graceful bird with a nicely feathered tail Smiley

Edmund

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jduncan
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« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2010, 09:18:23 AM »
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Shot with modeling lights,  Aptus 22, Contax, 35mm Superrotator on a 100F day.

Nobody melted.


That's a shoot James. Smiley great work as always.  By the way I am glad she didn't melt. LOL
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 09:20:24 AM by jduncan » Logged

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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2010, 09:56:37 AM »
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Just want to jump in on the P40+ Vs the P45+. I will leave the Hassy out of this since I have yet to try it except I know the HD 4/40 is a great system and I am STILL waiting for Hassy to send me one to test. On the Phase stuff I would certainly lean more towards the P40+ which i currently shoot over the P45+ which i know really well from use and testing. The big advantage on the P45+ is the hour long exposure and the crop is 1:1 over the P40 1:3 crop after that I like the P40+ better. First it has the 6 micron Dalsa over the 6.8 Kodak which on the moire side of the house the P40+ will better at it also in regards to noise levels the P45+ after Iso 200 it gets much noisier over the full res. P40+ files which are really good at ISO 400 full res. and at ISO 800 are good as well not great but good. Also the P40+ has Sensor Plus which bins the files down to 10 mpx but greatly increases the noise levels to ISO 1600 easy . I have plenty of sample of that to show how good it really is plus it really acts to me at least like a 15 mpx cam. The 10 mpx in my book are underrated. Another thread another story but here sensor plus stuff http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13379

Also the Kodak VS the Dalsa debate. Interestingly i was a big Kodak fan, Leica DMR,Leica M8, P25+, P30+. Than I moved over to the P40+ and have to say I like it much better as i find it much more neutral in color and tone over the Kodaks. Maybe a way to say that is Kodak has more punch in color and saturation which is not a bad thing but they do have different qualities in look. Many will say they always loved the Leaf look in backs because it has nicer skin tones and Leaf always used Dalsa. Finding that now on the P40+ but when it first came out I did not like it at all and actually tested it three times over a year I believe until Phase C1 really nailed the color than i jumped on it testing it against the Leica S2 which BTW is a Kodak sensor. Not that one sensor is better over the other but they are just different in look and obviously what each OEM makes there profile for it as well.

Now raw processing make no mistake i am really biased towards C1 and have been using it since the 1ds but for time it was a clunky program and recently after getting the P25+ I started using it again and it has vastly improved in it's current state. Phocus I do not know the program well enough to make a realistic users comment so i won't but I hear it is good.

If it was my choice today to decide on what type of sensor than it would be for sure the 6 micron as Phase, Leaf, Hassy, Leica sensors are really nice and the latest technology with good higher ISO results from each one at full resolution and lets just call it they all are great at ISO 400 after that some maybe better but the P45+ is ISO 200 level.

I would at least demo both systems find what is the best for your use between the Hassy, Phase and Leaf also backs than see what works for your style of shooting. Also very important use the raw processing with each system and see what is better and fits your workflow. Interestingly I get asked these what to buy decision all the time and some folks I have recommended Hassy and some Phase depending on there needs and wants in a system. Just don't rush it, there is a lot of money on the line and I have received e-mails from folks that made a bad decision on a system because they did not do there homework. Good luck

End of day these systems will all produce top notch quality. Just need to find what fits you
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 10:03:38 AM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

bradleygibson
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« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2010, 10:57:25 AM »
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Gorgeous lighting, James!

Thanks for sharing, as always.
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ondebanks
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« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2010, 04:22:47 AM »
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Guy raises some interesting points re. the sensors.

Bottom line is: with PhaseOne's current lineup, you can have decent high ISO (Dalsa's 6 micron + pixel binning: Sensor+) or decent long exposures (Kodak's 6.8 micron low darknoise: eXpose+) - but not both together. The P30+ comes closest to offering both together.

With Hasselblad's and indeed Pentax's current lineup, you do have both together - in Kodak's 6 micron, 40MP microlensed, even lower darknoise chip.

Why PhaseOne missed the boat on the Kodak 6 micron chips (40MP & 50MP) is a bit of a mystery. They are now behind the technology curve. I was hoping for a Photokina announcement which would change this, but all we got was Leaf's 80MP back which is going in the other direction entirely - no high ISO, no long exposure.
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