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Author Topic: Is it possible to have a Prophoto RGB monitor  (Read 15206 times)
ErikKaffehr
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« on: October 08, 2010, 03:05:36 PM »
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Hi,

We had a recent discussion on this forum about using Adobe RGB vs. sRGB on monitors.

As I guess we all know there are visible colors outside Adobe RGB and a digital camera has a significantly larger gamut than Adobe RGB. Similarly, a printer can print some colors outside Adobe RGB. So weather sRGB or Adobe RGB we will not able some of the colors we actually have in images and also in prints.

For the time being I have the impression that Prophoto RGB, or some derivation thereof, is the best working color space available today. Will we see monitors some day, supporting Prophoto RGB?

Would that be possible at all? The primaries are outside the "horseshoe" of the CIE 1931 xy diagram, meaning that they would be more saturated than spectral colors! Could such a monitor be built, and would it have real benefits?

Best regards
Erik
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Schewe
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« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2010, 03:14:58 PM »
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Will we see monitors some day, supporting Prophoto RGB?

Not likely...bigger than Adobe RGB would be likely but not PPRGB since parts of the gamut are outside of human vision.
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TimBarker
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« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2010, 05:38:03 PM »
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"Outside"?  Infra-red, Ultra-Violet?
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Tim Barker (aka MandoTiM in other forums),
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« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2010, 05:54:04 PM »
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"Outside"?  Infra-red, Ultra-Violet?

Outside as in ProPhoto RGB's chromaticities for RGB fall outside of CIE 1931 color which represents human vision...it has nothing to do with infrared or ultraviolet which are wavelengths.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2010, 12:37:12 PM »
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Will we see monitors some day, supporting Prophoto RGB?

Only when the evolution of our species allows us to see outside the current visible electromagnetic spectrum. By then, we will not need displays, we will be closer the Arthur C. Clarks super embryos <g>
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Andrew Rodney
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NikoJorj
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« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2010, 02:34:30 PM »
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It might need the same trick done for printing : once you can't saturate more your 3 primaries (how's about a CIE-RGB monitor? Tongue ), you still can extend the gamut by adding other primaries like orange or green?
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Nicolas from Grenoble
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« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2010, 02:45:58 PM »
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It might need the same trick done for printing : once you can't saturate more your 3 primaries (how's about a CIE-RGB monitor? Tongue ), you still can extend the gamut by adding other primaries like orange or green?

It would no longer be an RGB working space (color space).
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2010, 03:04:12 PM »
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Hi

multi primary inaging has been about for a while but not mainstream as you will no doubt gather fro this link.

http://www.isl.titech.ac.jp/~guchi/NV/NV-IntroE.html

But who knows?

The nearest you can get to "real life" imaging is the Lippmann Method
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/articles/biedermann/

Very interesting stuff!
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NikoJorj
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« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2010, 05:18:13 AM »
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It would no longer be an RGB working space (color space).
I would rather have thought that the monitor space couldn't be matrix based, just as the printer spaces?
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Nicolas from Grenoble
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FranciscoDisilvestro
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« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2010, 07:29:03 AM »
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Is there a physical limitation? The fact that we cannot see those colors doesn't necessarily mean they cannot be achieved.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2010, 07:35:54 AM »
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Hi,

The "horse shoe" in the diagram represents spectral colors. So each dot on the curve would represent a pure monochromatic spectrum color. I don't think that a physical implementation of any primary outside the horseshoe diagram would be possible. But I'm no color scientist, I might be wrong.

Best regards
Erik


Is there a physical limitation? The fact that we cannot see those colors doesn't necessarily mean they cannot be achieved.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2010, 09:07:02 AM »
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Is there a physical limitation? The fact that we cannot see those colors doesn't necessarily mean they cannot be achieved.

If you can’t see them, they are not a color:

Quote
Color, is a perceptual property. So if you can't see it it's not a 
color. Color is not a particular wavelength of light. It is a 
cognitive perception that is the end result of the excitation of 
photoreceptors followed by retinal processing and ending in the 
visual cortex. We define colors based on perceptual experiments.

A coordinate in a "colorspace" outside the spectrum locus is not a 
color. We often refer to these as "imaginary colors" but this is by 
and large also erroneous (you can't map an imaginary color from one 
colorspace to another as the math (and experimental data) for each 
colorspace breaks down outside the spectrum locus.
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Andrew Rodney
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FranciscoDisilvestro
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« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2010, 10:00:46 AM »
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Quote
So if you can't see it it's not a
color

Thanks for the responses, but I have another doubt. Suppose a full spectrum but very low intensity light, below the minimum level to excite the cones, so only Rods can see it. We will perceive a monochromatic image.

Based on the previous statement we could conclude (erroneously) that there is no color, but if you take a photo it will show the colors.

Another thought, and forgive me if this is nonsense, I'm just curious: Suppose a color blind person, we could think as him having a smaller gamut vision than a normal vision person. Would this color blind person perceive a color inside his color gamut if it was produced by primaries outside of this gamut (inside the visible spectrum for a normal vision person)?
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WombatHorror
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« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2010, 11:35:25 PM »
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Hi,

We had a recent discussion on this forum about using Adobe RGB vs. sRGB on monitors.

As I guess we all know there are visible colors outside Adobe RGB and a digital camera has a significantly larger gamut than Adobe RGB. Similarly, a printer can print some colors outside Adobe RGB. So weather sRGB or Adobe RGB we will not able some of the colors we actually have in images and also in prints.

For the time being I have the impression that Prophoto RGB, or some derivation thereof, is the best working color space available today. Will we see monitors some day, supporting Prophoto RGB?

Would that be possible at all? The primaries are outside the "horseshoe" of the CIE 1931 xy diagram, meaning that they would be more saturated than spectral colors! Could such a monitor be built, and would it have real benefits?

Best regards
Erik

many already show many more colors than adobergb covers, none are close to ProphotoRGB, not even our vision actually
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hjulenissen
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« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2010, 01:40:39 AM »
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Is there a reason that a large-gamut monitor has to adhere to some sRGB/aRGB/... standard only? Does it not make more sense that these specialized monitors come with a precise color profile that lets the color management software take advantage of whatever it offers?

-h
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MelissaF
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« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2010, 03:37:13 AM »
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It would no longer be an RGB color space.
Regards,
Ali.
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hjulenissen
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« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2010, 03:50:18 AM »
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It would no longer be an RGB color space.
Regards,
Ali.
Does it matter what it is as long as it does what it is supposed to do well?

-h
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FranciscoDisilvestro
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« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2010, 01:49:05 PM »
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If it has three primaries R,G,B and they are inside the "horseshoe" CIE xy diagram, it will indeed be an RGB Color space, regardless of being different than sRGB or AdobeRGB

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WombatHorror
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« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2010, 07:18:40 PM »
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Is there a reason that a large-gamut monitor has to adhere to some sRGB/aRGB/... standard only? Does it not make more sense that these specialized monitors come with a precise color profile that lets the color management software take advantage of whatever it offers?

-h

There is no reason. And they don't.
Most have a gamut that does not match AdobeRGB, it is usually smaller in intense yellow-greens and far larger in certain other areas.
This is why it makes no sense to use them in ADobeRGB mode when using color-managed software.

And they are certainly still RGB colorspaces, they still use R and G and B primaries.
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madmanchan
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« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2010, 09:15:25 AM »
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No, since two of the primaries (green and blue) are not physically realizable.
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