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Question: Can you spot  which files came from the Hasselblad H3D-50?
A C E - 2 (4.3%)
A D E - 7 (14.9%)
A D F - 5 (10.6%)
A C F - 1 (2.1%)
B C E - 3 (6.4%)
B D E - 6 (12.8%)
B D F - 4 (8.5%)
B C F - 4 (8.5%)
no idea, who cares? - 14 (29.8%)
all of them - 0 (0%)
none of them - 1 (2.1%)
Total Voters: 45

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Author Topic: Spot the Medium Format Files  (Read 9772 times)
ced
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« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2010, 02:06:38 PM »
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Why luck?  It was obvious the files were quite different, you can't justify giving your client somethng that you know in truth is of lower quality even if your client is happy.
That he doesn't pay you more for giving higher quality that is another question. 
The day will come when you will regret having given out a job that you knew could and should have been of a higher standard being a professional...
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Dennis Carbo
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« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2010, 02:14:56 PM »
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Why luck?  It was obvious the files were quite different, you can't justify giving your client somethng that you know in truth is of lower quality even if your client is happy.
That he doesn't pay you more for giving higher quality that is another question. 
The day will come when you will regret having given out a job that you knew could and should have been of a higher standard being a professional...

Well Said !
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MH
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« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2010, 02:24:11 PM »
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why is it that important for you that canon/nikon cameras are close to mf...?
i think the answer is that you do only small or medium jobs where you cannot put the rental for a digital medium format system on the calculation, or even buy one for yourself. so it must be very important that your 35mm system is close to that.

next time when i have a hasselblad in my hand i do a comparison with a canon 5d mark 2 and use a focal lenght between 20 and 35mm (on canon) to a equal hassi lens. there will surely be no doubt which pictures belong to which system.
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fredjeang
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« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2010, 02:32:24 PM »
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why is it that important for you that canon/nikon cameras are close to mf...?
i think the answer is that you do only small or medium jobs where you cannot put the rental for a digital medium format system on the calculation, or even buy one for yourself. so it must be very important that your 35mm system is close to that.

next time when i have a hasselblad in my hand i do a comparison with a canon 5d mark 2 and use a focal lenght between 20 and 35mm (on canon) to a equal hassi lens. there will surely be no doubt which pictures belong to which system.

Well Michael, if you go on that lands...MF has got nothing to do with the level of the jobs involved.
There are tons of masters with worldwide reputation that hardly use MF gear and tons of MF gear users that shoot "their garden trees"...
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 09:28:25 AM by fredjeang » Logged
Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2010, 03:21:35 PM »
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Why luck?  It was obvious the files were quite different...

Gee... how was it "obvious" when only 7.5% guessed it correctly!? The only thing that is obvious is that the difference is so negligible (at least for this type of example) that only an extreme minority (if any) knew it, while most guessed it, some of which was then randomly correct.
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Slobodan

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ced
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« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2010, 04:01:44 PM »
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Maybe it is just a reflection of the level of most users on this forum.  I still say it was obvious...
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feppe
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« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2010, 04:17:49 PM »
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Maybe it is just a reflection of the level of most users on this forum.  I still say it was obvious...

Is that natural, or does the smugness come bundled with the MFDB?
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JBerardi
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« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2010, 04:39:28 PM »
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How about plain luck?

why did 92,5% of participants choose something different? 15% chose the canon files, that doesn't mean they are better, it only means the difference is hardly discernable and me personally, I'd rather spend the money and the time I save by shooting a 35mm solution on holidays with my family.

How about I knew what to look for and I found it?

92.5% of participants choose something different because you stacked the deck. You wanted to prove that the MF advantage doesn't really show through under certain output conditions, and you did. Not sure why that would have ever been in doubt in the first place, though.

And if we're speaking personally, I don't shoot MF; hell, I don't even shoot 35mm. I'm not an evangelist here. I have no doubt that your decision to shoot 35mm is a valid one. That said, one CAN tell the difference, even if it is vanishingly small in these examples.
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pcunite
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« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2010, 07:46:07 PM »
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Quote from: ced link=topic=47278.msg394551#msg394551 date=
Why luck?  It was obvious the files were quite different, you can't justify giving your client somethng that you know in truth is of lower quality even if your client is happy.
That he doesn't pay you more for giving higher quality that is another question. 
The day will come when you will regret having given out a job that you knew could and should have been of a higher standard being a professional...

What a load of bunk, please tell the forum when you buy that new 80mp back, anything less is to dishonor your customer. Sorry to be to the point... it is a public forum.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2010, 11:14:49 PM »
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Hi everyone,

In my view this is an interesting comparison. On the other hand the images are scaled down JPEGs, so the resolution advantage of larger sensor is eliminated. Would the MFDBs have an advantage in DR, it would not be possible to see it in JPEG. This is really an example of good enough. 

So this demo puts MFDBs in a perspective, but doesn't in any way demonstrate their full potential. For that we would need actual pixel images, preferably in RAW.

Best regards
Erik

Gee... how was it "obvious" when only 7.5% guessed it correctly!? The only thing that is obvious is that the difference is so negligible (at least for this type of example) that only an extreme minority (if any) knew it, while most guessed it, some of which was then randomly correct.
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bradleygibson
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« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2010, 11:23:48 PM »
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... the images are scaled down JPEGs, so the resolution advantage of larger sensor is eliminated.

Perhaps the resolution advantage is eliminated, but there remain advantages to greater downsampling (averaging of noise to create a higher signal to noise ratio, for example).

What is interesting to me is that this "elimination" of MF's alleged advantage did not produce an approximately equal distribution of selections between medium and small formats.  Assuming the math was correct, self-selected respondents selected the small format images overwhelmingly at ~92%.  It would be interesting to know how the respective files were processed, as clearly something had an effect to skew the selection.

Said plainly, if tiny JPEGs are too small to see the "superior" image quality of MF, then why were the Canon images overwhelmingly favored at a rate in excess of 11:1?

Since the outcome between approximately equivalent choices (JBerardi and ced excepted, of course Wink) should essentially be random, it suggests one or more additional biasing factor(s) were in play.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 11:44:35 PM by bradleygibson » Logged

yaya
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« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2010, 01:13:47 AM »
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What a load of bunk, please tell the forum when you buy that new 80mp back, anything less is to dishonor your customer. Sorry to be to the point... it is a public forum.

No disrespect to you but I trust ced to know about MFDB (and digital imaging in general) more than all of us put together, from developing it to using it in real life. I've personally learned a lot from the guy and if he says this is obvious then it is!

Yair
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« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2010, 02:29:45 AM »
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although I have an idea who ced might be, I am not trusting anyone's opinion who doesn't disclose their name.

thankfully I don't have to be paid by ced or the like, but by companies who are used to commission professional work. The whole production environment really makes the difference between professional and amateur work. and they trust me 100% in choosing the right equipment necessary for the job.
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« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2010, 03:08:44 AM »
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Said plainly, if tiny JPEGs are too small to see the "superior" image quality of MF, then why were the Canon images overwhelmingly favored at a rate in excess of 11:1?
Are you serious? The reason that you got higher contrast at 11:1 is that sharpening is added to the Canon e.g. on the mushroom in the upper left corner on A and B there is a dark edge around head at the transition to the steem on A - that is not how mushrooms look like.
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fredjeang
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« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2010, 03:13:31 AM »
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The files fooled MF daily users, not dslr's only users. Yes they where downsampled and as Erik pointed, a Raw comparaison would have probably make the differences easier to spot.

If some experienced, trustable and above-the-crowd-users have reached the obvious solution, is that the differences where obvious.
If only 2 or 3 people could see this obviousness, is that the differences are unsignificant in most of the commercial assignments.

And, the normally loud crowd of dealers in this forum stayed curiously very silent. Don't they like games ?...or, maybe they where not sure 100% to get the right files?

 
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #55 on: October 13, 2010, 03:33:19 AM »
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The files fooled MF daily users, not dslr's only users. Yes they where downsampled and as Erik pointed, a Raw comparaison would have probably make the differences easier to spot.

If some experienced, trustable and above-the-crowd-users have reached the obvious solution, is that the differences where obvious.
If only 2 or 3 people could see this obviousness, is that the differences are unsignificant in most of the commercial assignments.

And, the normally loud crowd of dealers in this forum stayed curiously very silent. Don't they like games ?...or, maybe they where not sure 100% to get the right files?

 

However, this completely misses on how the files stand up to post production... shooting.

Yesterday at an event in London, I spoke to a photographer who bought his first H3D39 second hand a year or so ago.  Much preferred it for fashion work.. felt he wasn't worried about losing highlights... shadow detail and so on.

Also found it much easier to work with for retouching.

All of those things can't be seen by a simple side by side comparison.
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David Grover
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« Reply #56 on: October 13, 2010, 03:44:34 AM »
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My favourite photographer here now sadly AWOL uses Canon, but I could care less, hes just very good and would be very good whatever he used. Ive seen great images from folk using point and shoot, shite from folk using the latest greatest digital backs and of course visa-versa.

What saddens me here is the lack of respect - and this is true of those who use DSLR and MFD - for other folks choices. I cant understand why folk get so uptight about this stuff, so much angst from so many seemingly bitter and twisted souls.
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« Reply #57 on: October 13, 2010, 06:06:42 AM »
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Sorry, I seem to have closed this thread accidentally by browsing it on my phone. this thread has gained me a lot of insight, so I hope we can keep on with it for a bit.
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geesbert
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« Reply #58 on: October 13, 2010, 06:23:08 AM »
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I think no one and definitely not me stated that DSLR files are as good (whatever that means) as MF files, my point is that as a commercial shootier in my field this quality advantage doesn't show.

What shows is that DSLR solutions are easier and quicker to work with, critical focus is easier achieved, compositional fine-tuning is way easier, financial and technical burden is way less and hardly anyone seems to notice the difference.

there is a lot of stuff that really improved my photography in recent years, e.g. using a dedicated 26" screen only for live view, or using those insanly expensive Fisso clamps to prop my subjects or using a second assistant just to keep the clients happy or swallowing part of the studio rental fee, just because  both me and my clients are more comfortable and many things more. the tedious workflow of MF certainly work in the other direction.

The argument, that MF files leave more room for manipulation doesn't really count for me. My shooting environment is very controlled, it just can't happen that I blow my highlights or kill the black.


Maybe I should disclose my workflow for these files:

Hasselblad: shot into Phocus, edited there to get the look I liked, exported to 16bit tiff, into lightroom.
Canon: shot into eos capture, edited in lightroom.

then I tweaked the colors to equalise them. I only used global adjustment and very little of that. downsampling and color space conversion by lightroom.

using Hasselblad DNGs in lightroom wasn't successful.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2010, 09:53:41 AM »
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... why were the Canon images overwhelmingly favored at a rate in excess of 11:1?... it suggests one or more additional biasing factor(s) were in play.

Additional biasing factor = Canon files look better? Just saying Wink
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Slobodan

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