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Author Topic: You can't do That with medium format  (Read 53946 times)
yaya
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« Reply #340 on: November 04, 2010, 01:18:52 AM »
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Ray you'll probably be shocked to hear that most MF cameras nowadays offer a hotshoe!!!!! Some even have a built-in pop-up flash!!!

You can even use the hotshoe to mount a flash unit and with the correct adapter, have TTL function!!!!

For your question, I think lighting those shadows with an off-camera unit (can be an SB-XXX if you want as you can trigger it remotely) will give better control and better results.
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Dustbak
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« Reply #341 on: November 04, 2010, 02:00:30 AM »
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Dustbak,
As far as I can tell from the SB-900 manual, you can choose the flash intensity, the distance to the subject, the aperture for appropriate exposure, and the angle of coverage. (As well as many other options).
I imagine that vignetting would take place if the angle of coverage is either not set correctly, or is outside the design limits of the flash unit.

If I buy one of these units, it looks as though I'll have to spend a lot of time reading the manual. Things seem to be getting more and more complicated.

Ray,

You are hitting your shutter blades because your sync limit is actually lower than 1/320th with the D700 in a lot cases. This shows as half a black frame from the bottom upwards.

It seems you are either not reading what I wrote or you have no idea what max sync speed actually is and what happens if you cross it (or where you cross it with the D700). This has nothing to do with the angle of coverage of the flash.



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Ray
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« Reply #342 on: November 04, 2010, 02:19:06 AM »
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Ray you'll probably be shocked to hear that most MF cameras nowadays offer a hotshoe!!!!! Some even have a built-in pop-up flash!!!

You can even use the hotshoe to mount a flash unit and with the correct adapter, have TTL function!!!!

For your question, I think lighting those shadows with an off-camera unit (can be an SB-XXX if you want as you can trigger it remotely) will give better control and better results.

I'm not so much shocked as mystified. I did a bit of Google searching to try to find out what flash options are available to attach to DMF cameras, and couldn't find any satisfactory answers. I checked out the Phase One site where there are lots of video tutorials on the Phase 645DF, but the only reference to use of flash related to external units.

During my search, I came across a 'getdpi.com' forum where people were showing off their high-ISO DMF images downsampled to DSLR size, and congratulating themselves that such images were comparable to DSLR output. They seemed to have completely ignored the fact that that at high ISO the MFDB manufacturers tend to exaggerate their ISO ratings by a greater extent than do DSLR manufacturers. The real ISO of the P65+ back at ISO 1600, for example, is very close to the real ISO rating of the D3X at the nominated ISO 800.

Talk about 'fanboyism'!
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Ray
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« Reply #343 on: November 04, 2010, 02:28:27 AM »
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Ray,

You are hitting your shutter blades because your sync limit is actually lower than 1/320th with the D700 in a lot cases. This shows as half a black frame from the bottom upwards.

It seems you are either not reading what I wrote or you have no idea what max sync speed actually is and what happens if you cross it (or where you cross it with the D700). This has nothing to do with the angle of coverage of the flash.


I'm reading the D700 (and SB-900) manuals. They tell me that maximum flash sync speed is 1/320th. What problems there might be in using the SB-900 at this flash sync speed of 1/320th are another matter. Regards vignetting, I can only comment from experience with other TTL flash units. There's vignetting if the FL of lens used is outside the specifications of the flash unit, or if the FL range has not been set properly.

This advice at  http://nikonclspracticalguide.blogspot.com/2008/03/10-auto-fp-high-speed-sync-explained.html  is 2 1/2 years old but perhaps still helpful. To quote:

Quote
As I mentioned, a focal plane shutter mechanism moves the curtains at a very precise speed. This speed is determined during manufacturing of the mechanism and is governed mostly by how recently the shutter was designed. In older 35mm cameras, this speed was 1/60th second, but with time, shutters got faster and faster, and in the new D300 this speed is 1/320th sec.


« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 02:58:46 AM by Ray » Logged
perjorgen
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« Reply #344 on: November 04, 2010, 03:47:10 AM »
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I'm not so much shocked as mystified. I did a bit of Google searching to try to find out what flash options are available to attach to DMF cameras, and couldn't find any satisfactory answers. I checked out the Phase One site where there are lots of video tutorials on the Phase 645DF, but the only reference to use of flash related to external units.

A Hasselblad H-series has a few flash options (I'm not sure about the other MFs but I quess they have something similar)
  • built in fill flash with TTL
  • hotshoe where you can mount normal flashes and with the appropiate adapter a TTL flash
  • PC plug where you can mount cord base flashes
All these flashe options syncs to 1/800 - well there is only one case that I know of where you dont have max sync speed and that is when you use slow wireless remote triggers but that is not really the cameras fault.
When using faster sync than the flash duration you don't get the full benefit of the flash power.
You can choose to sync the flash in the beginning or at the end of the exposure, which is very nice when shooting moving objects leaving the ghosting trail behind the object instead of in front.

I have been following this thread and find it very entertaining even though I have difficulties seeing what its actual purpose is. I seems that the OP ask if MF is too expensive, too heavy, and too unflexible to be worth getting and as the thread progresses it appears that the question is more rethorical than actual.
To me it's like asking: Why does anybody wan't to buy a 18 wheel truck - it's heavy, it's very expensive, nobody else buys it, it doesn't run very fast, it's difficult to drive and even more difficult to park?
The best answer I can come up with is a few people needs it's ability to move stuff and a few freaks just like to drive it. I wouldn't recommend it for a sunday drive unless ofcourse you mostly enjoy destroying your environment.
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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #345 on: November 04, 2010, 03:55:41 AM »
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A Hasselblad H-series has a few flash options...
All these flashe options syncs to 1/800 - well there is only one case that I know of where you dont have max sync speed and that is when you use slow wireless remote triggers but that is not really the cameras fault.
Can you tell us which wireless remote triggers work well, and give fast sync speeds?

Metz?

Pocket Wizard?

Elinchrome?
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perjorgen
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« Reply #346 on: November 04, 2010, 04:32:14 AM »
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Can you tell us which wireless remote triggers work well, and give fast sync speeds?

Metz?

Pocket Wizard?

Elinchrome?

I don't have much experience with wireless flash. But since the challenges you face with high sync speed with focal plane shutters are very different from the ones you have with a leaf shutter, all the fancy sync modes you get with Pocket Wizard will not help you. Elichrom says up to 1/250 on their web site and seems to be designed for focal plane shutters. My best quess would be Profoto air which it is designed for leaf shutters and they say up 1/1500 on their site.
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philipmccormick
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« Reply #347 on: November 04, 2010, 06:25:29 AM »
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Flash heads, as in not Nikon Speedlights which you won't find on a professional set of any genre in photography.


Em, there are loads of professional photographers who regularly use Nikon/Canon etc speedlites on location, especially in editorial and travel work, using them creatively, often off-camera, often producing powerful and artistic work.
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Philip
Rob C
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« Reply #348 on: November 04, 2010, 06:35:10 AM »
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It's probably all different now - what the hell isn't? - but even in the days of the 500C and theoretical synch at 1/500 of a sec with its lenses, the received wisdom was to stay down at around 125th and, at a push, a 250th. This was because synch wasn't always that accurate and also because many big bang studio units were only powerful because the flash was a long-duration one; the danger was clipping part of that output via the shutter and, as a result, not getting the exposure your meter told you that you would be getting... maybe Polaroid had value after all.

Rob C
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BrendanStewart
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« Reply #349 on: November 04, 2010, 07:25:10 AM »
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Can you tell us which wireless remote triggers work well, and give fast sync speeds?

Metz?

Pocket Wizard?

Elinchrome?

Elinchrom works very well. All my photos in the above link were taken with Elinchrom strobes. They have some great systems.
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BrendanStewart
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« Reply #350 on: November 04, 2010, 07:26:41 AM »
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I don't have much experience with wireless flash. But since the challenges you face with high sync speed with focal plane shutters are very different from the ones you have with a leaf shutter, all the fancy sync modes you get with Pocket Wizard will not help you. Elichrom says up to 1/250 on their web site and seems to be designed for focal plane shutters. My best quess would be Profoto air which it is designed for leaf shutters and they say up 1/1500 on their site.

Just to be clear, Elinchrom syncs to 1/800th and 1/1600th no problem.  Ranger RX AS and Quadra's both. I use them exclusively with my Hassy.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 07:28:56 AM by BrendanStewart » Logged
Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #351 on: November 04, 2010, 08:55:39 AM »
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I don't have much experience with wireless flash. But since the challenges you face with high sync speed with focal plane shutters are very different from the ones you have with a leaf shutter, all the fancy sync modes you get with Pocket Wizard will not help you. Elichrom says up to 1/250 on their web site and seems to be designed for focal plane shutters. My best quess would be Profoto air which it is designed for leaf shutters and they say up 1/1500 on their site.
I do not use any cameras with focal plane shutters, and I have Hassy V and H systems, and Copal shuttered MFDVC and LF lenses, and I am about to get eShutters for my Apo-Digitars, so why will "all the fancy sync modes you get with Pocket Wizard... not help" me?

eShutters are limited to 1/250th, and I have (old) Elinchroms.
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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #352 on: November 04, 2010, 08:59:03 AM »
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big bang studio units were only powerful because the flash was a long-duration one;
Rob C
I think that the trick is to use big flashes (1,500ws) at fractional power.
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perjorgen
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« Reply #353 on: November 04, 2010, 10:35:02 AM »
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Just to be clear, Elinchrom syncs to 1/800th and 1/1600th no problem.  Ranger RX AS and Quadra's both. I use them exclusively with my Hassy.
Maybe the 1/250 on different sync vendors websites should be understood as "It is fast enough for 1/250 sync speed on a focal plane shutter camera" since it would be problematic if they goes out promising sync speeds up to 1/1600
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BrendanStewart
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« Reply #354 on: November 04, 2010, 12:08:07 PM »
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Maybe the 1/250 on different sync vendors websites should be understood as "It is fast enough for 1/250 sync speed on a focal plane shutter camera" since it would be problematic if they goes out promising sync speeds up to 1/1600

Agreed, it's a fine line in how you word things. What it should state is;

For focal plane shutter cameras, we sync up to 1/280th (The new speed mode promises 280th)

For Leaf Shutter cameras, we sync up to 1/1600th with less than half a stop loss of light.  (Which is true, i've tested it)
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Nick-T
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« Reply #355 on: November 04, 2010, 02:55:35 PM »
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Am I the only one who is utterly thrilled at the prospect of seeing what Ray can do to Ankor Wat with on camera flash?

Nick-T
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BrendanStewart
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« Reply #356 on: November 04, 2010, 03:10:29 PM »
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Am I the only one who is utterly thrilled at the prospect of seeing what Ray can do to Ankor Wat with on camera flash?

Nick-T

Nope Smiley
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hjulenissen
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« Reply #357 on: November 04, 2010, 03:30:22 PM »
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Sorry for interupting, but I cant follow you on this flash stuff.

Are we down to the main benefit of MF over smaller sensor sizes is the ability of fast flash sync??

-h
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hjulenissen
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« Reply #358 on: November 04, 2010, 04:30:02 PM »
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I found Mr Rockwell quite illuminating on this topic.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/syncspeed.htm

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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #359 on: November 05, 2010, 10:05:04 AM »
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Sorry for interupting, but I cant follow you on this flash stuff.

Are we down to the main benefit of MF over smaller sensor sizes is the ability of fast flash sync??

-h
No. that is one of the advantages of leaf shutters, which are fitted to good MF cameras.

It seem to be lost on most people now, but the other advantage of leaf shutters is the lake of distortion of fast moving subjects.
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