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Author Topic: LF how to get into it?  (Read 7462 times)
Zenny
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« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2010, 04:56:09 PM »
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Very interesting thread with immensely useful pointers to LF from the experienced!!! Love it!!! Would love to read further!!!

zenny

***http://www.thehumanape.org***
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Rob C
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« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2010, 02:40:31 AM »
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Very interesting thread with immensely useful pointers to LF from the experienced!!! Love it!!! Would love to read further!!!

zenny

***http://www.thehumanape.org***


Stay tuned, baby, stay tuned!

Rob C
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Fritzer
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« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2010, 01:30:40 PM »
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You lads made me just buy a Sinar Norma - shame on you ... Wink
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ced
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« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2010, 07:01:07 AM »
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"You lads made me just buy a Sinar Norma - shame on you ... Wink"

How and on what are you going to use it?
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Rob C
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« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2010, 07:21:27 AM »
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Probably on Norma.

Rob C
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Fritzer
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« Reply #45 on: November 22, 2010, 09:17:33 AM »
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No saucy remarks , please !
I'm not sure Fred is old enough to hear that . Wink
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Rob C
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« Reply #46 on: November 22, 2010, 12:29:21 PM »
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he he...going LF is not to make landscapes neither concrete and glass in my mind  Grin



Big Normas, then?

Rob C
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jsch
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« Reply #47 on: November 22, 2010, 04:02:50 PM »
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...
The big advantage with the movements is, that you can put the sharpness where you want it or you remove sharpness from parts of the image where you don't want sharpness. I use it often to bring in a portrait with a tilted head both eyes into sharpness by camera movments. In a full body shot I can keep the head sharp and can control the sharpness fall of from shoulders to legs also by camera movements. A Leica f1 and a Canon f1.2 can't do that. I tried this with the TS-E 45 and 90 lenses. But you are not seeing what you are doing in that small Canon viewfinder. Perhaps it would work with a 10 inch monitor as a live view device.
...

Hi,
here I post an example to show what you can do with movements with an 8x10 inch camera and how the same image looks with a fixed lens to support my remark above:
ex-8-10.jpg is Sinar p2 spezial 8x10, Schneider Symmar 360/6.8@9, tilt
ex-dig.jpg is Canon 5D Mark II, EF 50/1.2L@1.2
If you look at the feet you see the difference that comes from tilting. I did not try to match the bw styles of film and digital here. Digital is only a back up if something with the film goes wrong.

Best,
Johannes

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fredjeang
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« Reply #48 on: November 22, 2010, 04:18:18 PM »
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Thank you for this clear and nice example Johannes. And with a human being! I apreciate that.

Cheers.
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Zenny
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« Reply #49 on: November 22, 2010, 05:24:30 PM »
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@Johannes, thanks for the visually-enlightening example with a live girl. The example inspired me to go for LF from MF and 35mm.

What about Sinar P and Sinar F? Are they good LF camera? Is there any pointer about the prices of LF cameras including lenses?

zenny

***http://www.thehumanape.org***
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jsch
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« Reply #50 on: November 23, 2010, 06:05:31 AM »
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@Johannes, thanks for the visually-enlightening example with a live girl. The example inspired me to go for LF from MF and 35mm.

What about Sinar P and Sinar F? Are they good LF camera? Is there any pointer about the prices of LF cameras including lenses?

zenny

***http://www.thehumanape.org***

You are asking for 8x10 cameras? I like Sinar. I use them for more than 20 years (first a 4x5 f1, now as described 8x10 p2 and Norma). But they are not so "portable" (in my opinion it is no hiking camera) - but very modular and easy to find on ebay. And the Copal behind the lens shutter with automatic cable that closes the lens and stops down, when you insert a film holder are very comfortable. For a working system you have to invest a minimum of 1000-2000 Euro: Camera, Lens, Filmholders. The real weight comes not from the camera but from the film holders. And the expenses come form the film and the development: bw (film 3-6 Euro + development 5-9 Euro = 8-15 Euro per click) color (film 10-16 Euro + development 5-9 Euro = 15-25 Euro per click). You should really consider to develop yourself. That is not too difficult and something where you easily save money (4-8 Euro per click).

If you look for a light system, you can consider this camera: http://www.argentumcamera.com/eng/pages/cameras/excursor_eng.htm
I haven't touched it so far, but I'm very interested in it.

Best,
Johannes
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Adrian Roy
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« Reply #51 on: November 23, 2010, 07:44:52 AM »
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Here is a picture for you to compare the size of a 10 x 8 (Peco Universal III) with the Contax 645.

If you are looking to get a monorail, then I would also recommend the Sinar Norma, you could pick one up with a couple of lenses easily for under 500 euro. Then if you got on with the camera could purchase a 10 x8 rear standard for a couple of hundred euro.

One thing to bear in mind is the cost & weight of the 10 x 8 film holders. 12 film holders weigh just under 10kg and cost between 25 - 40 euro 2nd hand. 80 euro new.

Adrian



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KevinA
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« Reply #52 on: November 23, 2010, 08:43:15 AM »
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There is a big range in price, I bought a made in India folding 5x7 field camera for I think 150. 'ish, then fitted a Sinar Norma 5x7 back which came with it. I bought a 1870 brass lens which was supposed to cover only 3x4, I use it stopped down at f100 and something and it covers 5x7 very nicely, it's also very sharp. I think about 60. bought that lens. My 305 mm Kodak portrait lens from about 1950 was 350. I think that is the most I have spent on a lens. Some I bought taking a chance the shutter could be cleaned/repaired for very little money indeed.
I would stress if you are new to film, feeding a LF is expensive and the bigger the format the bigger the cost. I would go as far as to say getting a 6x9 with a roll back is a good place to start or a 5x4 with a roll back. You have all the movements without anywhere near the cost for film.
Chances are you will want to try B&W and process yourself, although darkroom equipment is seen as cheap and given away, it never works out that way when you want it and no point in skimping on a cheap poor quality enlarger if you want to try wet prints. In fact I think the enlarger choice will have more effect on the output than the camera if wet prints is your goal. A sturdy even light that takes any future format you might use in good condition can still fetch a reasonable sum, say 200 plus.
Seriously, if you have not shot film or LF before stay clear of the tempting 10x8 or bigger cameras, 5x4 or smaller is the way to go for now.

Kevin.
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Kevin.
jsch
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« Reply #53 on: November 23, 2010, 10:00:52 AM »
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...
Chances are you will want to try B&W and process yourself, although darkroom equipment is seen as cheap and given away, it never works out that way when you want it and no point in skimping on a cheap poor quality enlarger if you want to try wet prints. In fact I think the enlarger choice will have more effect on the output than the camera if wet prints is your goal. A sturdy even light that takes any future format you might use in good condition can still fetch a reasonable sum, say 200 plus.
Seriously, if you have not shot film or LF before stay clear of the tempting 10x8 or bigger cameras, 5x4 or smaller is the way to go for now.

Kevin.

Sorry Kevin, let me add my point of view. "Nothing Personal" ;-)
In my opinion 8x10 is the King/Queen for Portrait/People/Fashion if you go LF - for anything else I would not use LF at the moment. Check whether your hero photographers use/used LF and whether it is still necessary to get the look you want. I tried to describe it above what I mean with this.
I work hybrid. Develop the film an scan it. A 8x10 inch enlarger and equipment to make big prints is really big and costs money and is very time consuming. On the other side the development of film with the Jobo 3005 Drum and a CPA or CPP processor is easy and quick for bw, C41 and E6.
I photographed this year already 30 people in black and white. In the beginning I gave the film to a (good) lab but quickly started to develop myself. After 80 sheets of film I reached the return on investment for the Jobo tank and processor. And you can control your negatives so much better.
But be sure you want/need this for your images. Without that it is a nice hobby to kill time - even a form of mediation or something that a photographer should do once in his life.
You know this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpIZ_S38A_0&feature=related

Best,
Johannes
« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 10:04:52 AM by jsch » Logged
KevinA
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« Reply #54 on: November 23, 2010, 10:41:25 AM »
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Sorry Kevin, let me add my point of view. "Nothing Personal" ;-)
In my opinion 8x10 is the King/Queen for Portrait/People/Fashion if you go LF - for anything else I would not use LF at the moment. Check whether your hero photographers use/used LF and whether it is still necessary to get the look you want. I tried to describe it above what I mean with this.
I work hybrid. Develop the film an scan it. A 8x10 inch enlarger and equipment to make big prints is really big and costs money and is very time consuming. On the other side the development of film with the Jobo 3005 Drum and a CPA or CPP processor is easy and quick for bw, C41 and E6.
I photographed this year already 30 people in black and white. In the beginning I gave the film to a (good) lab but quickly started to develop myself. After 80 sheets of film I reached the return on investment for the Jobo tank and processor. And you can control your negatives so much better.
But be sure you want/need this for your images. Without that it is a nice hobby to kill time - even a form of mediation or something that a photographer should do once in his life.
You know this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpIZ_S38A_0&feature=related

Best,
Johannes
Johannes,
I do not disagree with you one bit. but to get to the level you are at takes a lot of time and practice, you can practice all those things at smaller and cheaper level than 10x8, wasting 5x4 sheets is bad enough, 10x8 is four times worse. Just loading a sheet of film in a holder the right way, remembering to change round the sheath to not double expose, closing the lens, cocking the shutter, locking the movements etc all those basics you do out of habit takes some learning. I say learn on 5x4 and save a packet.

Cheers,

Kevin.
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Kevin.
fredjeang
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« Reply #55 on: November 23, 2010, 11:35:56 AM »
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You are asking for 8x10 cameras? I like Sinar. I use them for more than 20 years (first a 4x5 f1, now as described 8x10 p2 and Norma). But they are not so "portable" (in my opinion it is no hiking camera) - but very modular and easy to find on ebay. And the Copal behind the lens shutter with automatic cable that closes the lens and stops down, when you insert a film holder are very comfortable. For a working system you have to invest a minimum of 1000-2000 Euro: Camera, Lens, Filmholders. The real weight comes not from the camera but from the film holders. And the expenses come form the film and the development: bw (film 3-6 Euro + development 5-9 Euro = 8-15 Euro per click) color (film 10-16 Euro + development 5-9 Euro = 15-25 Euro per click). You should really consider to develop yourself. That is not too difficult and something where you easily save money (4-8 Euro per click).

If you look for a light system, you can consider this camera: http://www.argentumcamera.com/eng/pages/cameras/excursor_eng.htm
I haven't touched it so far, but I'm very interested in it.

Best,
Johannes
Those cameras are made by Argentum are simply beautifull!

Actually, my interest for 8x10 is of course fashion and people. Yes, it's like meditation, and that's why I also probably want it. In this overspeed and crazy digital world this is a very interesting alternative to have.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 11:54:25 AM by fredjeang » Logged
Audii-Dudii
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« Reply #56 on: November 23, 2010, 01:10:40 PM »
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Check out Joel Sternfeld's work, as he often shoots people with an 8x10 ... street photography, even!  In fact, it was seeing his images that convinced me to move up from 2x3 and 4x5 to 8x10, with a Toyo 810G studio camera, of all things.  For many years, I was able to find outdated color transparency film for $1/sheet or less, which worked out well from a budgetary perspective, but it's become almost impossible to find these days because nobody is buying it in any quantity any more.  :-(
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bcooter
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« Reply #57 on: November 24, 2010, 04:19:26 AM »
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I don't think there is a better way to learn photography, than using an 8x10 camera.  It teaches you how to see outside of the camera, compose and treat each frame as something worthwhile.

Saying that and with respect to the artists mentioned, I don't believe there is an inch of difference between shooting an 8x10 camera and one of today's modern or almost modern digital backs.

This week we were doing an image search through one of our servers and came upon some old 8x10 film drum scans.  Beautiful scans, very nice look, but looking at them close the only difference I saw was the slight grain, which can easily be added in post.

Large film may seem romantic and to some galleries and collectors more "pure", but I think at this stage in photography film is more of a romantic notion of the past than it is any real artistic of technical improvement.

The only think I know that film does easier (short of having a lab process it), is when you put strong light behind a subject film tends to wrap smoother and seems to have less of an abrupt cut off than digital.  the only other plus I see from film of any format is  . . . well actually I don't.

Even if you shoot film 99.999% are still going into the digital domain and require photoshop, then purposed either back out in a chemical or ink jet print.    In fact of many of the fine artists film photographers everyone mentions, more than you would every know place their images in retouching and then output to a wet print.  They may not admit it in a press release, but I've seen it time and again.

Once again, shoot with the camera you like,. enjoy and learn from the process, but remember it's only the final image that matters, not the capture device.



IMO.

BC

« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 04:21:41 AM by bcooter » Logged
KevinA
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« Reply #58 on: November 24, 2010, 07:39:34 AM »
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I bet you did not start photography shooting 10x8. We have a generation that thinks film is a new exciting path in their photography, we were brought up with film from the beginning, our first cameras took film. 10x8 is certainly the deepest of deep ends to jump into when learning about film and LF. If money is not a factor then 10x8 is fine to learn on, if money is a consideration 5x4 and a roll back will save a great deal of money while ironing out the 101 basic mistakes he is going to make many times over.

Kevin. :-)
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Kevin.
Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #59 on: November 24, 2010, 10:02:07 AM »
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I don't think there is a better way to learn photography, than using an 8x10 camera.
My father used to say that he could not understand how anyone could be a good car driver if they had not driven a pony and trap... and we must try to convince ourselves that it should be possible to become a good digital photographer without have first used film?

It is quicker to learn digital, as you get instant feedback, but not necessarily better.
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Hasselblad H4, Sinar P3 monorail view camera, Schneider Apo-digitar lenses
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