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Author Topic: Version 4 print profiles and Snow Leopard (is the issue Adobe?)  (Read 14094 times)
Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2010, 08:46:57 PM »
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I’ll inform the party with the new product. But now its even more complicated as to what the hell is going on here.


Oh no. Now I wished I would have created more of a stink about this when I first brought this up back in June.

http://forums.adobe.com/message/2918572#2918572

But hay, I was creating profiles from MP for everything I was printing from LR and PS. And everything I was printing from ID that I was using Relative Colorimetric rendering for I created the profiles from PMP. So it just was not affecting me. But maybe I need to cancel my order for the new product.

But when you come right down to it I still think it is an Apple bug. But what the hell is triggering it?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 09:01:59 PM by Doyle Yoder » Logged
Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2010, 09:01:10 PM »
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I updated the previous linked file with the Measurement Data files.

http://www.dypinc.com/V2.icc.zip
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na goodman
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« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2010, 09:41:10 PM »
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This is from an earlier discussion on this forum from when my issues first started.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=43919.0

I'm guessing you used an i1 with iMatch software to create the profile?  Three of my group noticed the same behavior -- it appears to be an issue with the i1 software on the latest Mac OSX.  We all print on Epsons and you didn't mention your printer, but it could also be Epson/Mac/i1 specific issue. Epson canned profiles do not exhibit this behavior, only i1 generated profiles. 

It seems as though OSX>Epson is treating an i1 profile as an absolute colorimetric profile regardless of how you print with it. Note that if you build your profile by reading the target on a white base, it prints a lighter gray/cyan outside the print area than if you create the profile reading the target over a gray backing -- so it does appear to be an issue with how i1 is reading and then rendering the profile.  And FWIW this was with a version 2 profile out of i1 3.6.3, so I rebuilt the profile using i1 3.6.2 and had the same issue.

I think it has to do with what program is used in making the profile. At least it looks like it is pointing that way. Mark sent me a profile so I'll test it as soon as I can.
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Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2010, 09:53:06 PM »
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I am using a i1Pro UV cut reading the targets with Measure Tool. Saving as for PMP and Saving LAB and converting for MonacoProfiler. So both PMP and MP measurement data came from the same read. These were Bill Atkinson's targets 1728 or 4096.

The printer I am was using for these tests is a Canon iPF9000. Latest driver version 2.17. I haven't tried the Epson 9600 that hasn't been used for awhile but I do not think this has anything to do with printer drivers. Because of the initial bug in 10.6 and the fixing of that with 10.6.4 only to have another bug surface in 10.6.4 seems to point directly at Apple.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 09:59:13 PM by Doyle Yoder » Logged
digitaldog
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« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2010, 11:18:56 AM »
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I am using a i1Pro UV cut reading the targets with Measure Tool. Saving as for PMP and Saving LAB and converting for MonacoProfiler. So both PMP and MP measurement data came from the same read. These were Bill Atkinson's targets 1728 or 4096.

So with the same Lab data, you build a profile using PMP and PROFILER. The PMP V2 has the scum dot (on the Canon as well as Epson?) but the PROFILER does not?

Quote
The printer I am was using for these tests is a Canon iPF9000. Latest driver version 2.17. I haven't tried the Epson 9600 that hasn't been used for awhile but I do not think this has anything to do with printer drivers. Because of the initial bug in 10.6 and the fixing of that with 10.6.4 only to have another bug surface in 10.6.4 seems to point directly at Apple.

On my iPF6300, with the driver or Plug-In, I can’t get a scum dot so this is indeed odd.

We need to stop (as Chris Murphy wrote to me off list), for a second because the matrix is getting too big, and we're going to lose track of what we've tested.

Here’s what I have thus far:

1. The V4 profile “scum dot” is only showing up with Lightroom and Photoshop print paths thus far.
2. These profiles that produce a scum dot in these app’s don’t produce this effect in InDesign 5, Aperture or Preview.
3. These profiles do not produce a scum dot with printing to a Canon iPF6300 with the Photoshop Export module or print driver (at least for me).
4. It appears that V4 profiles built on this end, with PROFILER 4.8. do not produce the scum dot. Profiles built with a beta and PMP on this end do. V2 profiles do not.
5. Here on Luminous Landscape, one user who was building V4 profiles using the old PULSE software said they get the scum dot, the other said he did not. Since this software is no longer, I’m wondering if we even want to go down this path due to the other issues.
6. Chris and I examined the print spools in Acrobat. There is a vector object around the image that is specified as sRGB (while the image is specified as the output profile) when we print from Photoshop. No vector object when printing from InDesign.
7. Its clear that Photoshop and LR use a different print path than the other app’s. Can anyone say that using other app’s with V4 profiles, built from any product produce a scum dot?
8. Up to know, this is the first post I know of where this scum dot has been attributed to a V2 profile. It would be useful to know the full conditions that produced this and if anyone else can reproduce this and if so, just using the supplied measured data to build profiles or from scratch (print target, measure, build profile).
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2010, 11:39:26 AM »
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Here is a link to that version 2 profile I just created.

Just printed using that profile to my Epson 3880 using CS5, no scum dot.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2010, 04:01:17 AM »
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After reading through this, posting my own version of events (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=48207.0) and reading a lot of other posts here and elsewhere I would have to agree with Jeff Schewe, V4 Profiles are not worth the trouble (if using OSX 10.6 at least). Though I am yet to have the differences explained to me in a straight forward real world (useful, in other words) way the differences between V2 and V4 profiles.

And an update on the testing I have done, now out of my own curiosity. I have no problems with V4 profiles in CS3, CS4 and CS5 on XP, Vista and Windows 7 (32 and 64bit). I only see the issue when using OSX10.6. Those V4 profiles were created in both Profile Maker 5 and EyeOne Match.

I look for forward to hearing about other results your guys are getting.   

 
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Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2010, 06:11:55 AM »
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I just did a test with profiles created with EFI Printer Profiler. No scrum dot with V4 profiles from EFI Printer Profiler. I even took an existing PMP created V4 profile that printed with a scrum dot and imported it into EFI Printer Profiler and regenerated a profile and the new profile does not produce a scrum dot.

This is all very strange. Some profile generation software create profile that produce this and some do not. And even more strange Andrew's Canon iPF6300 does not produce a scrum dot, but with the same profile my Canon iPF9000 does. So I wonder what difference is there, drivers?

Doyle
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digitaldog
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« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2010, 08:44:12 AM »
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Though I am yet to have the differences explained to me in a straight forward real world (useful, in other words) way the differences between V2 and V4 profiles.

http://www.color.org/whyusev4.xalter
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Andrew Rodney
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Simon J.A. Simpson
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« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2010, 04:57:30 PM »
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Sorry to throw another spanner (wrench) into the works here.

I have just inadvertently discovered the same problem using a Canon 9000Pro.

I normally print from Tiger (10.4.11) from a venerable Mac G5 – no problem with V2 or V4 profiles – but the other day I made a print from my laptop (Mac Intel Snow Leopard 10.6.5) and, for complicated (but irrelevant) reasons used a V4 profile.  Lo and behold, a faint blue is printed around the image.  Same profile and same image on the G5 Tiger – no pale blue “scum dot” (I’d love to have an explanation as to why this description ?).

OK, some info:
Mac OS 10.6.5
Photoshop CS4
Latest Canon drivers
Profile created using an X-Rite ColoMunki – V4

When I get time I'll try making some prints from non-Adobe applications to see if the ‘scum dot’s replicated or not (no one hold your breath I’m a bit busy right now).
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Manuel_A
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« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2010, 05:19:54 PM »
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Is your system V4-ready?


Download and print the PDF file.


I hope this helps…
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digitaldog
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« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2010, 11:16:30 AM »
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(I’d love to have an explanation as to why this description ?).

Right now, what we know is, when you print out of SN with a V4 profile, the PDF Spool file has a vector object that is tagged as sRGB (unlike the image). You can see this if you have Acrobat Pro and save out the spool file prior to it getting to the printer from the CUPs folder. The process is a bit convoluted but thus far, the generation of this vector object *appears* to be the culprit.
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Andrew Rodney
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elolaugesen
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« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2010, 02:20:40 PM »
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I have had the same problem with 10.6.5 and version 2 profiles.  I have also had other version 2 profiles without the problems.  seems to be depend on software used to generate the profiles.  profiles work fine with 10.5.8..

ie.  Epson drivers for 3800 work perfectly, most(THE ONES I Have tested) 1isis profiles do not work,  monaco works 

 go look at my post on the MACOSX Combo 10.6.5 update
http://forums.adobe.com/message/3172635#3172635
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=12330271&#12330271
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Simon J.A. Simpson
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« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2010, 07:57:25 AM »
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Manual_A
My system is V4 profile "ready" – apparently.  I'm ready too.  But something else is not.

Andrew
1:  My enquiry about the origins of the term "scum dot" were less technical and rather more tongue in cheek, but thank you.  Seems like a splendid description of something you don't want – I just wonder how you thought of it, or was it the most decently abusive thing you could think of at the time ?!

2:  More seriously, I have confirmed that the pale blue scum dot does not appear when printing from Preview.  This would appear to support the hypothesis that it is Adobe Photoshop related and effects more than one printer vendor, although it would be necessary to try other applications to be sure.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2010, 11:45:07 AM »
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Scum dot is a pretty well, accepted term used in prepress for the behavior I am seeing.
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Andrew Rodney
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Chris_Brown
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« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2010, 12:14:45 PM »
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Info: Ink Dot Scum.
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~ CB
Simon J.A. Simpson
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« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2010, 05:00:25 PM »
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Aha !  Thank you.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2010, 07:22:29 PM »
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Aha !  Thank you.

Note that a scum dot can be produced in other ways than described in the link. For example, I’ve seen ICC profiles with bugs that introduce a scum dot in one or more color channels when converting RGB 255/255/255 to CMYK (where the result is not 0/0/0/0).
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2011, 09:46:18 AM »
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Need help:

My setup: 
iMac with OSC 10.6, Adobe LR3 and Canon 9000 MKII
. My monitor calibrated, and I have created profiles for my camera.
I only can print with Printer managing the colors simply becase could not find how to turn OFF proter managing colors when printing with profiles.  When printing with profiles prints are darker and colors are nor vibrant.

When I select LR3 to manage colors and select paper profile printing screen reminds not to forget (on the print screen) to turn OFF printer management of colors. I never could figure out how and where it should be done. As result printing with profiles creates darker and not clear colors print.
Please, help to find how to disable printer from managing colors.


Leo
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Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2011, 11:55:14 AM »
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Post screen captures of your print dialogs.
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