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Author Topic: Mr Cooter - how is your red  (Read 3236 times)
Morgan_Moore
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« on: December 06, 2010, 03:25:54 AM »
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How is your Red

Im guessing with Epic some Reds might hit the used market - maybe

Do you ever shoot stills with it

who do the images compare to a D3

can you fire a flash

can you hit a button and go from (say) 1/50th 5.6 to 1/250th @ 4

stillswise is it usable at say 800-1200

could you compose a still on the monitor

could I stick it in my bag and do a one tool still motion trip

SMM
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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fredjeang
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« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2010, 05:52:04 AM »
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Good questions. I join my voice here.
This stills topic are also turning my head and really I'd like to know more about that from Cooter or Barrett. Till wich point Red can be usable for stills? BC gave a first clew on the other thread but really it still reminds oscur.
The thing I'd like to know is about stills extracted directly from motion frame, and to give an idea, what would they be comparable to if we had to make a paralell with photo cameras so we can have a pretty clear idea of the limitations?

Because that has a lot of consequences IMO. 

Morgan, I don't get the flash fire capability unless you want to use the Red as a still camera? But isn't it against the nature of the product? On the contrary, if decent usable stills could be extrated from the motion frames that could be just amazing.

ps: I tried that previously with the Canon and Pentax and didn't like the results. What about Red?

Then, the software. Are they bridges to PS ? Do you edit with the naughty final cut?

Sorry BC, now you got it you'll be inundated with questions.
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2010, 10:34:37 AM »
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BC has a couple of examples, of stills

when using red (afaik) you choose a high shutter speed and extract stills - but this does not make good motion

in terms of flash, yep I was just talking about using it for stills

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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bcooter
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« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2010, 12:00:43 PM »
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How is your Red

Im guessing with Epic some Reds might hit the used market - maybe

Do you ever shoot stills with it

who do the images compare to a D3

can you fire a flash

can you hit a button and go from (say) 1/50th 5.6 to 1/250th @ 4

stillswise is it usable at say 800-1200

could you compose a still on the monitor

could I stick it in my bag and do a one tool still motion trip

SMM



Ok I guess  before we answer is it still photography quality we have to rethink what that is.  Is it a 120 megabyte file or a 3000k, 72 ppi file.

And I must preface that I have not shot anything of importance with the RED yet.  We've just had it a week and we are doing lens, sound, sensitivity tests.

So to answer what I know.

No it doesn't sync to flash.

No you cannot one button click to change exposure, as the F/T stop is manual.

Will RED ONE's be falling out of the trees since the Epic is announced.  No probably not.

A lot are in rentals and owned by rental operators.  Also most people willing to sell their RED are on the Epic upgrade list so they want to Lease/sell you a RED ONE so they can retain their upgrade, and use your cash for the upgrade.

It's kind of murky buying a used RED and it took us a long time to find the right seller.

Also you most definitely want the Mysterium X sensor and honestly I can't tell any difference in motion imagery from 200 iso to 1600, though 800 iso is the base

What you can do with the file is freeze on a frame, make a 4k still of it, retouch that still and insert it in your edit. if that's a concept you are trying to achieve.

Oh at does it just fit in your bag.  Not, unless your bag is a large Pelican case.  It's big and it's heavy and just putting it on your shoulder the first thought is wow, if I trip I'm going to knock a large hole in my head.

Some 35mm nikor still lenses look great, (the 85mm for example) some look like crap, (the 35mm 1.4) but you'll probably never get away with just having one set of lenses.  

What the RED ONE is IMO is a dedicated motion camera.  A poor man's panaflex and it requires a much different discipline that a still camera, any still camera.  

I didn't buy the RED to up my game in stills.  I bought it to up my game in motion.

It also has at least as much dr as my digital backs.

As far as high shutter speed looking jerky, it depends on the setting.  I've seen some flicker, then I havent' at even 1/500th, but there is a whole lot of software that can smooth this out.  Once again I'll know more soon.

Not to take this off topic but read this and tell me where you think imagery for advertising is going.

http://www.adweek.com/aw/content_display/news/media/e3i5b647315f27310ef7b93cfd95d948a93
I personally think in a few years it will be a  90% lcd screen world, both in-store, online magazines and for most consumer consumption.  

I also think that the camera makers are all going to have to stop protecting territory and step up to the medium, because the medium now exists, it's just the equipment is ignored.

What I really would like is a motion camera that shoots a 5k raw, with a form factor the size of medium format, (and the EPIC is much larger than that).  A Sensor that goes from 645 to 35mm depending on the crop, accurate autofocus, a new series of supports that are easy to transport.

I don't want workarounds, kludges, line skipping, two cameras, two types of lighting, a bunch of xlr to mini convertors, no real way to monitor sound, etc. etc. etc.

I also don't believe that for serious advertising work it will become a 5d, 7d, d700, little panasonic, little sony world.   They're just not that robust in the world of motion image making and clients are already more demanding in what they want delivered.

These small cameras have a place for tight quarters and fast production, especially with narrow dof, but they still are a workaround.

Once again, IMO

BC











« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 12:33:18 PM by bcooter » Logged
Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2010, 01:07:57 PM »
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Thanks for that

ON the quality of a still file my first delivers are usually (worked) jpg at 8 off a D3, it is very rare to get a request for a tiff, so I kinda dont care about DPI/Res quality, just DR usability etc
----

So by a screen world you see motion as 'it' even if its just a 'simple' moving still like the girl in undies on your site

Thats what I think

Re buying a Red I see (as someone not significantly earning from motion now)

either..

A Red is a dead horse (in two years time) in the way that a 5dmk2 for stills has really made a P25 a dead horse - not becuase a P25 is not better but because a 5dmk2 is often 'good enough'

Two years could bring us a half decent DSLR motion camera - making a Red - dead

OR

Jumping to a Red just skips me taking the losses on four generations of VDSLRs and a couple of AF100s or whatever

Having bought a 5d2, 7d, D90, Ex1 I kind of should have just bought a Red from the off because that heap nearly costs the same (or at least is a good chunk of it)

and still I have dodgy 1080 footage with a baked profile

OR

(and this is probably the best)

A nice shoot on a 5d, 7d or EX1 will display well across most bandwidths (Web/Satelitte) so any extra quality is a waste and if you/I shoot good stuff then the budgets will be forthcoming to just rent

-----

Im suprised it doesnt fire a flash BTW, kind of a killer as a DSMC

I dont see us getting D3 convienience from a StillMo camera soon

I see flash and AF as kinda handy for stills

Although I will only invest in constant lighting from this moment on

S
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 01:10:11 PM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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fredjeang
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« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2010, 02:18:27 PM »
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zzzz....
I personally think in a few years it will be a  90% lcd screen world, both in-store, online magazines and for most consumer consumption.  

I also think that the camera makers are all going to have to stop protecting territory and step up to the medium, because the medium now exists, it's just the equipment is ignored.
...zzzz
Totally agree with that.

Well, in fact what you really want is the MF video camera! teasing.

But as you pointed, we should define first what are our requirements is still quality. I understand, and can it be different today?, that you invest in Red not to enhance your still imagery but video.
My point was not going this way but indeed towards a future video solution that it self could be capable of really stunning stills. Or on the contrary, a MF still camera that would integrate video with a great usability. (and with the backs it could be indeed easier). That's why I'm so interested to know where are we at that point with equipment that I don't have access (yet).

The think is I'm maybe expecting a product that does not exists or will appear in a long term but that will change completly the all process. Exploitable stills will be extracted from video, I mean by that it will be exactly the opposite as now: stills will be an option and motion will be the strongest, and that has directlty something to do with the quote from BC post I mentionned here. I (ingenuously) beleive in one camera for both. The convergence IMO will happen, now we are still in compromises.

The idea is by-pass the inboard downsample task in shooting. If your camera shoots 16MP FF, each video frame will have exactly that resolution and each frame would be editable in ps. then, the downsampling process for HD would be done in pp. Imagine a 40MP Hassy with 40MP video frames? I do! The volume of datas would be crazy but remember that what we have now was unthinkable a few years ago. So this is not so crazy if you think about it.

Michael Reichman seems to bet more for the reasonable and interesting micro4/3 or similar proposals, but what I'm seeing is that the Canon is very very present now and I'm not sure the king will be de-troned, and that, as always in imagery, the bigger, the best.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 08:32:58 AM by fredjeang » Logged
ChristopherBarrett
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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2010, 12:22:28 AM »
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Im suprised it doesnt fire a flash BTW, kind of a killer as a DSMC

I dont see us getting D3 convienience from a StillMo camera soon

I see flash and AF as kinda handy for stills

Although I will only invest in constant lighting from this moment on

S

The Red One was really not built as a DSMC, though many are using it to shoot magazine covers.  It really has the shape and weight of a cinema camera.  The Epic is the one that's designed around the 645 form factor and yes it will have flash sync. 

I can't decide where to go lighting-wise... I've just bought 10 D1's over the last year and I really like those damn strobes.  We did a test shoot yesterday with the hotlights and stuff looked great, though.  HMI's are so big, you have like one heavy ATA case for each head/ballast combo.  Lame!

My head hurts,
CB
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2010, 01:39:03 AM »
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Continuous lighting is an issue

I dont know how bright my Elly Ranger is but it is surely the same brightness as a big HMI, yet comparitivly small light cheap

My daliences with motion I have..

My mains powered light is a daylight flouro (photon beard) - cool (to move) power level, daylight but not that bright

I use this indoors as a key light, sometimes bounced softened

I have some battery LEDs, very low power to give some accent in the dark (very blue)

I use these indoors or at night

Outdoors I have nothing that can compete with the sun apart from silver/white boards and nets

I got rid of three Arri redheads - too hot (physically) no level adustment, and too harsh without modifiers that could go up in flames - horrible

I think the dream is only to light for mood, using a combination of high ISO and different conversions of a raw file to control DR and Color temp here is a blog entry on psudo HDR for video..
http://www.elskid.com/blog/combining-multiple-exposures-dynamic-range-tricks

You may find my blog entries interesting or too simple..
Light.. http://dslr4real.tv/index.php?option=com_zoo&task=item&item_id=31&Itemid=1
Power.. http://dslr4real.tv/index.php?option=com_zoo&task=item&item_id=50&Itemid=1

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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ChristopherBarrett
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« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2010, 08:48:42 AM »
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Thanks for the links Sam.  Yeah, I've really got to think more about lighting.  On one hand, I need to move a little faster than I do on still shoots, but having recently returned from a motion project that I had previously shot stills on... I wish I had lit the video as well.

Lots of learning to do Wink

CB
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Chris Sanderson
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« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2010, 09:06:55 AM »
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Sam, I have to congratulate you on your light & power blogs. There is so much covered there in as short a form as is possible. You have distilled knowledge and experience there that it takes others miles & years to cover!
Chris
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Christopher Sanderson
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fredjeang
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« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2010, 03:25:41 PM »
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Tell me if I'm wrong, but I really do not get the importance of such precise color temp at the point we are with sotwares, included video. It is true that color temp influence to some extend the exposure couple  and certain atmosphere can be acheived or not with a clever color temp choice. But can't we free ourselves from the traditional way because in fact, all a mentality as been built arround analogic devices. Should we apply the rules that where deadly important with film the same way with digital?

I'm not pretending there that the path is doing whatever stupid thing in the shooting and then trusting that software will do their magic blessing, no. I'm thinking that they should be considered an entire part of the creative process, or each folk's lenguage, color temp being completly maleable in pp.

Honestly, who is not applying different color temp in different zone of the image?

Am I missing a point?
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Chris Sanderson
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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2010, 03:40:02 PM »
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Fred - the question for edited video is consistency. Sure mix colour temps in a scene and adjust later but the close up needs to be exactly the same as the wide shot or it is going to look weird. So you need a basic starting point - whatever that is.

Video has not yet reached the 'ignore WB' at shoot time that shooting RAW stills has. It will but not yet. And still we require a base Color Temp for grading scene by scene. Mix at your peril.

Or, mix for a weird look  Grin
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 03:42:15 PM by Chris Sanderson » Logged

Christopher Sanderson
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fredjeang
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« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2010, 03:57:46 PM »
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But the based wb can be different if a scene is supposed to represent a warm indoor intimacy or a cold forest in the morning so isn't the lightning in video as to be the more diverse to face the different atmospheres that can change between scenes, even someone who is going from a dark bedroom to the kitchen to get a beer from the fridge, the person swich on the light wich in a kitchen is different and then open the fridge etc...
So a standart lightning set is almost impossible. IMO.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 08:29:17 AM by fredjeang » Logged
Chris Sanderson
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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2010, 04:18:04 PM »
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You are quite right. The sun gives us consistency and then we can mess with that.

We just need to know with a lighting kit where it is - 2800˚K or 8500˚K and then we need to judge how to balance it. The big problem is our brain which almost automatically dials out colour temp difference. Unfortunately a recording medium doesn't make the same AWB without looking horrible!

Consistency therefore but with the ability, know-how (takes years) and the kit (gels or LED dial) to accurately change it.
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Christopher Sanderson
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2010, 04:31:52 PM »
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From my post you will see avoid tungsten if possible

(exept as a mood practical light)

So mainyl my cams live on daylight

Now TG is bright and cheap if you are near some AC, do you think im missing something here

also with TG you are missing (and therefore pumping blue) which surely degrades image quality

For a mood I do swing the WB in camera - a little warm for domestic, cool some other times

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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ChristopherBarrett
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« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2010, 04:32:48 PM »
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Hmm...  when I'm shooting stills I carry CTO and CTB in 1/4,1/2,3/4 and Full.  I'm still doing a lot of local color balancing in the field.  I just prefer to start my post production with as clean an image as possible.  Also I've been in mixed lighting situations with the RED and when the overall balance was daylight, any tungsten lighting became very obvious because of the color difference.  So I've been playing with HMI a little bit but I don't love it.

CB
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fredjeang
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« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2010, 04:38:13 PM »
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http://www.videomaker.com/learn/production/lighting/

an interesting pdf on the subject: http://www.lightandtime.co.uk/tech/Painting-with-Light.pdf
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 04:45:06 PM by fredjeang » Logged
Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2010, 06:15:34 PM »
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there are some lighting gems in the forum on

http://www.rogerdeakins.com/

He is a great DOP who started as a photographer working under James Ravilous (http://www.jamesravilious.com/) who is a legend here in the West of England

Personally I think a lot of video lighting is either rubbish, (three point which came about from just making stuff show on the screen in B+W SD) or often over done (hollywood)

Im a fan of a big soft source like a window and with 'usable' 800 it is now an option for motion

I dont think vid people have realised what 800 + F2.8 can do

I did some lighting and shooting notes on my (second) indy film which I 'DOP'd..

http://dslr4real.tv/index.php?option=com_zoo&task=item&item_id=20&Itemid=1

S

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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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fredjeang
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« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2010, 03:49:05 AM »
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there are some lighting gems in the forum on

http://www.rogerdeakins.com/

He is a great DOP who started as a photographer working under James Ravilous (http://www.jamesravilious.com/) who is a legend here in the West of England

Personally I think a lot of video lighting is either rubbish, (three point which came about from just making stuff show on the screen in B+W SD) or often over done (hollywood)

Im a fan of a big soft source like a window and with 'usable' 800 it is now an option for motion

I dont think vid people have realised what 800 + F2.8 can do

I did some lighting and shooting notes on my (second) indy film which I 'DOP'd..

http://dslr4real.tv/index.php?option=com_zoo&task=item&item_id=20&Itemid=1

S


I discovered James Ravilous when Rob, the Lu-La member, posted a link in another thread recently. Great photographer.

About natural light through window, I agree with you, there is nothing better than that, but also nothing more volatile.
I'm doing a movie on a painter and we planned to work with this natural lightning in some scenes because at a certain hour, this light is doing magic in his studio. But then, it started to do harsh weather, days and days of cold and pooring rain, no magic lightning and bye bye the filming from now. It is too uncertain in our latitudes. As we are doing this movie without pressure, we can wait the good conditions but it is not generally the case.
 
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