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Author Topic: Coating Canvas with a Roller - Dust / Hair?!?  (Read 6347 times)
Light Seeker
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« on: December 16, 2010, 03:26:05 PM »
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I have been developing my rolling technique (Timeless on Breathing Color Lyve) and my biggest issue is avoiding dust, hair, etc. on the print. I would love to hear your best practices & techniques to avoid this. For that matter, any other suggestions you have for rolling coating onto canvas would also be appreciated.

Thanks all.

Terry.
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bill t.
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« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2010, 03:45:56 PM »
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Make very wet coats that take a while to set up.  The painted surface should look smooth like the surface of a pond.  That way you have time to pick off hair etc with a tweezers without leaving marks in the coating.  You can also slide a thin pin like a hat pin under hairs, as soon as lift a bit of the hair out of the paint, press it against the pin with a finger to extract the rest.  But WET is the key here.  If you only discover a hair when the pain is getting tacky, you might be best off removing it after the paint dries which will generally leave less of a marred surface.

Carefully clean the dry roller before use.  Tap the entire surface of the roller with a piece of masking tape to pull off any dirt and especially to pull off any loose foam.  There is usually loose foam on the rounded sides.

Tape the print down on a very clean surface, and wipe everything clean with a slightly moist towel before coating.  Remember the the roller will need to go considerably past the edges of the prints, make sure that area is clean as whistle.  Sometime before the print is completely dry, remove the tape so the print does not pincussion towards the center.

Try to nail it with one single coat.  If you do multiple coats, there is a tendency to pick up partial dried drecks of paint along the edges from the previous coating session.  And it is very hard to cleanly remove a piece of unnoticed crud from under a top coating.

If you get a dried-on piece of hair, tease it out gently under a magnifier using the a #11 Xacto blade.  Sometimes if you carefully cut out a 1/4" or so section of the hair, the rest may follow easily pulled by a tweezers.  Or you can make very gentle almost-non-penetrating cuts right right over the hair, tracing its full length, and try to rub out the hair with a moist paper towel.

If you mess up a dried surface, just paint over that section with a generous coating of slightly dilute coating, using a fine brush.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 03:59:06 PM by bill t. » Logged
Dan Berg
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« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2010, 05:07:54 PM »
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Cannot add a whole lot to Bills excellent advice. Get some paint strainers from Sherwin Williams and pour your material through a strainer before using. You will be amazed at what is filtered out. I've pretty much gotten away from rolling other then demonstrating the process for workshops. When spraying a hung print most of the issues of sediment and dust contamination are eliminated.
I have 3 large homasote (Similar to corkboard) boards that I hang all my canvas prints for final drying. After rolling just wait until it gets tacky and hang it up. It will dry faster and hopefully with no dust or foreign debris.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 05:11:06 PM by Dan Berg » Logged

Light Seeker
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« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2010, 03:58:22 PM »
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Bill and Dan. . .  thank you for your thoughts & suggestions. . .  very, very helpful.

My low print volumes and space restrictions preclude spraying, but perhaps that will change. I have focused on fine art papers in the past, and I'm hoping that canvas will create some growth for me.

Or you can make very gentle almost-non-penetrating cuts right right over the hair, tracing its full length, and try to rub out the hair with a moist paper towel.

This is the only suggestion I was unclear about. Would I be trying to get the hair to pop out, using the moist towel? Do I rub across the hair (it's width), or up and down its length?

Terry.
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Ian99
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« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2010, 05:03:05 PM »
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I am very much a beginner in canvas wraps and I have only done about 50 of them, typically 16x20 with the Hahnemuhle Easy Wrap system, so I hesitate to comment alongside the experts. But …

1.   Because I am a small operator, only doing 4 canvases at a time, I roll the varnish.

2.   I gave up on Glamour II, because mixing the gloss with the matte, then the water, introduced so many bubbles and inconsistencies that I lost about 15% of the output. Timeless solved that for me and is fast to dry, but I still leave them at least 24 hours before framing.

3.   I use a new foam insert every time, and I tap it and wipe it before mounting on the handle. I then try and use the least amount of varnish that gives me no roller marks. That means I do not make it look like a pond of varnish. With thin varnish I find it much easier to remove the few hairs or crud that land on the print.

4.   Make sure your lighting is oblique to the print, so that you can see any interruptions in the sheen before letting it dry.

5.   Do not hesitate to recoat. Usually this takes out all the roller marks or repair marks, and you have nothing to lose anyway.

6.   The big problem with dust is your workroom environment. Why do you have dust? Eliminate it from the A/C vents by installing foam filters on the vents. Separate your varnish room from any woodworking shop, or similar. In local sign making shops, I  have seen hanging curtains of cheap drapery “netting” to reduce air movements and trap crud.  Remove any cats or dogs from the building!

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bill t.
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« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2010, 06:37:46 PM »
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This is the only suggestion I was unclear about. Would I be trying to get the hair to pop out, using the moist towel? Do I rub across the hair (it's width), or up and down its length?

You just want to break the coating surface a little so that moisture from the towel can undermine the paint a bit and reach down to the hair.  Vaguely like scoring glass to break it.  The depth of the cut is not super critical, but if you get it right the rubbing will tease out the hair while repairing the vacated space without need for repainting.  Best to do within a few hours of coating, but not too soon.  Works good most of the time.

Most of the contamination sort of floats to the top of coating, you don't usually have to dig very far to reach it.  Sometimes all you need is a few hard swipes from a moist paper towel, with no cutting.  It's worthwhile to first look at the crud with a magnifier to evaluate how close it is to the surface. The towel should not be super wet, you want it to have a little friction against the paint.

Once in a while removing a big chunk of something will take a bit of image with it.  Mix up some gray or black acrylic with some coating to match the general density of the background and dab it over the spot.  The dab will dry a little bit darker than when wet.  I used to try to mix the actual background color but discovered that neutral tones of gray somehow looked less obtrusive than a slightly wrong color dot, especially in the sky.
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namartinnz
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« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2010, 07:16:15 PM »
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Just adding what I have found with coating and having the same dust issues. I use a cheap coffee plunger to filter my glamour coating of any lumps and have a poster paper with sticky backing which I roll the roller over to remove any dust off it.

As for doing another coat if I discover a small imperfection I get a fine cloth, slightly dip it in the coating and lightly brush over the canvas. Done evenly and even more than once, this leaves the surface still even with no sign of 'brush strokes'.

Neal

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kdphotography
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« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2010, 08:32:13 AM »
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Terry,

Years ago, I used to roll on Glamour II on BCs Chromata White, and actually got quite good at it, learning a few tidbits of the quirkiness and sometime difficulties of rolling.  For example, I found not to be a cheap sob and turn on the heat.  (It gets chilly where I live).  Glamour II rolls better at more comfortable room temperatures.  Mix with very warm water too.  Wide mouth glass jars are perfect for small batches----get rid of old solutions after a couple of weeks or so, regardless of rolling/spraying.  Use foil or plastic wrap under the lids just like grandma did with canning.  No tray---just pour on a puddle in the middle of the canvas and roll.  Using a tray tends to introduce bubbles and contaminants.

But really----even with low volumes, investing in a cheap sprayer system ala Wagner hvlp (about US$80) makes coating canvas so much easier.  Faster.  No headaches.  No quirkiness of rolling.  It almost takes the love out of the art it's so easy.  There is much less opportunity for contaminants to enter into the equation as rolling.  The hardest part (and it's not) is simply cleaning up with hot water.  My guess is that your "re-do's" will nearly go away, paying for the Wagner Control Spray.  Getting rid of the frustrations and irritations of rolling is worth it alone.  If volume picks up, you won't blink at buying a better hvlp sprayer.

 Smiley  ken
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Light Seeker
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« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2010, 03:55:57 AM »
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But really----even with low volumes, investing in a cheap sprayer system ala Wagner hvlp (about US$80) makes coating canvas so much easier.  Faster.  No headaches.  No quirkiness of rolling.  It almost takes the love out of the art it's so easy.

Ken, I would prefer to spray, but my understanding is that outside ventilation and a suitable room is required. Is that correct, or is there a way to make this work in a home studio setting?

Terry.
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fetish
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« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2010, 05:55:46 AM »
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Ken, I would prefer to spray, but my understanding is that outside ventilation and a suitable room is required. Is that correct, or is there a way to make this work in a home studio setting?

Terry.

I do both rolling and spraying depending on the type of canvas i use. generally i tend to spray heavier canvasses and roll thinner ones.

I very much prefer rolling due to material penetration, coating thickness and evenness, although the chances of destroying the entire print is much higher when rolling.

For spraying with a wagner, just have a large plastic sheet or some alternative covering the floor out to about 2-3m away from the ground zero of your spraying should be fine.
the canvas should be taped on a surface of about 15 degrees slant (like on an easel) for spraying.
most spray laminates are water based so fumes are not an issue. you might wanna have some n95 or p100 breathing filters if you're worried about particles getting into your system.
The particles generally settle down onto the ground in about 5mins in a room with zero ventilation. i would prefer NOT to have any moving air so the stuff can go straight down instead of flying all around my studio, and also less chances of airborne debris getting onto the wet canvas.

I have used quite a number of laminates in the market (BC, liquitex, golden, etc..) including making my own and i would say Aquathane from australia is about the best spray lam at the moment. It's outdoor rated under australian sun and also graffiti proof. I tried doing an experimental 2nd coating of acrylic based lamination via rolling (for added thickness and mechanical protection) and the whole 2nd layer slid (like a reptile shedding its skin) right off the sprayed-on aquathane first coat.
the downside is that it smells a tiny bit, dries a bit too fast and extremely difficult to roll.
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Light Seeker
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« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2010, 02:37:05 AM »
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But really----even with low volumes, investing in a cheap sprayer system ala Wagner hvlp (about US$80) makes coating canvas so much easier.  Faster.  No headaches.  No quirkiness of rolling.  It almost takes the love out of the art it's so easy.

Would this be suitable?



http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Products-0417005-Control-Sprayer/dp/B000DZBP60

Quote
From the Manufacturer
This Wagner power paint sprayer uses HVLP air technology to spray thin materials with maximum control and lower overspray than traditional sprayers. Pattern shapes can be changed from vertical or horizontal fan patterns for larger surfaces to round patterns for more detail work. Material size and flow rate are adjustable at the trigger. Sprayable materials include deck stains, clear wood sealers, waterproofers and enamels. Great for deck railings, yard play sets, kids toys, and yard furniture.

Product Description
Control Spray, HVLP Paint Sprayer, High Volume Low Pressure Paint Sprayer For Spraying Thin Bodied Coatings, Sprays In 3 Patterns Horizontal Fan, Vertical Fan Or Round Fan, Variable Trigger Flow Control With Patterns From 1-10", Built In Air Turbine & Sprayer, Cup Holds 1-1/2 QT, Lock-N-Go Technology For Fast Color Changes & Easy Cleaning.

Thanks.

Terry.
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Gemmtech
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« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2010, 03:32:41 AM »
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I agree that spraying is the way to go and Graco makes some very nice guns, even cordless units.  As far as keeping dust down?  I've been using water for 30+ years and it still works; just mist the area, no air flow until spraying or rolling complete, if spraying a lot then you will use an exhaust fan.
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kdphotography
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« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2010, 10:43:23 AM »
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Yes---that will work.

You can spray your canvas outside or in a suitable covered area, and then bring your canvas in to dry.
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Roscolo
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« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2010, 12:31:02 PM »
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That Wagner is perfect. Beats rolling hands down. In the time it takes to roll 1 canvas you can spray 10 or more. Cleaner. Much less hassle. You would literally have to try pretty hard to screw it up. I've had not ventilation problems. I just open up a couple of doors, but I'm spraying water-base product in a 1600 sq. ft. room with 14ft. ceilings. I spray with my canvas flat on the floor, so the spray goes right where I  put it anyway.
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fetish
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« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2010, 12:37:40 PM »
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I agree that spraying is the way to go and Graco makes some very nice guns, even cordless units.  As far as keeping dust down?  I've been using water for 30+ years and it still works; just mist the area, no air flow until spraying or rolling complete, if spraying a lot then you will use an exhaust fan.

yea graco makes awesome sprayguns. been eyeing the cordless one but it costs a bomb. Sad

I've tried the ryobi cordless paint sprayer too but it's too uncontrollable. the wagner control max is the one i'm currently using. it's wonderfully efficient and very easy to clean and maintain.
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fetish
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« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2010, 12:43:31 PM »
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That Wagner is perfect. Beats rolling hands down. In the time it takes to roll 1 canvas you can spray 10 or more. Cleaner. Much less hassle. You would literally have to try pretty hard to screw it up. I've had not ventilation problems. I just open up a couple of doors, but I'm spraying water-base product in a 1600 sq. ft. room with 14ft. ceilings. I spray with my canvas flat on the floor, so the spray goes right where I  put it anyway.

doesnt spraying canvasses on floors create uneven coatings due to the indirect angle of the spray against the canvas?
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bill t.
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« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2010, 02:41:00 PM »
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The Wagners etc can put down a very nice coat.  However...they suffer badly from clogging of the minuscule filters on the tiny air inlets that are very near the nozzle.  Having a fan pulling overspray quickly away from the gun might help prevent clogging.  Might be a good idea to rubber band some thin fabric over the filter inlets.

If you are going to do production level spraying, a better system with a separate turbine box is just about a necessity.  Put the turbine in another room, run the hose through a hole in the wall or at least through a barely opened door.

I normally spray outside with a Fuji Q4 system with maximum airflow and the needle backed waaaayyyy out.  One dense, absolutely torrential coat of thick Glamour is all it takes.  Works great.  About a minute to coat a 4x8 foot piece of foamcore taped up with canvases.  Oh yeah, have to dig a few art-loving bugs out during certain parts of the summer, but no big deal to do on the flood-plain coats.  Other than that, I almost never have to remove crud from the surface, and even I can hardly believe it.  But if I roll a small canvas inside, it will attract at least 2 hairs and few dust motes big enough to matter.
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Light Seeker
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« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2010, 04:15:46 PM »
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I normally spray outside with a Fuji Q4 system with maximum airflow and the needle backed waaaayyyy out.  One dense, absolutely torrential coat of thick Glamour is all it takes.  Works great.

Bill, my canvas volume is low (hoping that will grow) so it's hard to justify a system approaching $1000. However, I value quality, and understand that it's often better to spend more at the outset than to take an upgrade approach. Is there an entry point to a production level system that is a step, rather than a large jump, above the cost of the Wagner pictured previously?

Terry.
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kdphotography
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« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2010, 04:33:10 PM »
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Terry,

IMHO, if it were the difference between a $700 fictional Wagner and a Fuji $1000+ system, you might give pause for thought.  But the Wagner costs about US$75 and really isn't a bad choice for low volume.  If you want to upgrade, the "loss" put into the Wagner won't make you cry a bit.  Using hot water to rinse everything off (and run through your sprayer) will keep things running smoothly.

 Smiley
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BobDavid
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« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2010, 09:21:34 AM »
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I've finally thrown in the towel as far as roller brushing on big canvas prints. I have been using a solvent-based lacquer, but have decided I can't deal with the toxicity and the fumes. Solvent based lacquer does however seem to have better leveling properties than water-based coatings.

I went to Lowes yesterday and bought a gravity feed spray gun that claims it can handle latex paint ($59). I've got a 1.5 horsepower air compressor with 4 gallons tank capacity. The gun requires 60 psi to work. I just ordered a quart of Glamour II.  I've got a space in my studio with 12 feet of wall space that butts up to 12 X 8 feet of flooring that I'll cover with plastic.

I hope this set up works. I'm sick of dealing with stinky lacquers, uneven coatings, hairs, bubbles, and fumes.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2010, 09:23:31 AM by BobDavid » Logged
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