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Author Topic: Your Epson Flat Bed Scanner Settings and Procedures  (Read 31640 times)
tokengirl
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« Reply #80 on: January 21, 2011, 06:26:34 AM »
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My Coolscan IV will capture grain like that -- but the problem is that on a lot of slides the curvature of the slide exceeds the scanner's DOF, even setting the focus point to try to split the difference, and you can't stop down with a scanner.  My Epson V700 will resolve grain too, but there is more smeariness to the image, in my opinion from the extra glass surfaces between the scanner lens and the slide.

The DOF issue is a problem with my V750 too.  The nice thing about the 5DMkII/10mm macro lens is that you can stop down to solve that problem (I use an aperture of f8, which is supposedly where that lens is the sharpest).  Also, when doing this, I enable the automatic lens corrections in Lightroom - makes a noticeable difference.

The other problem with the Epson scanners that I have noticed is that it introduces some chromatic aberration when scanning in color at higher resolutions.  Embarrassed
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chichornio
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« Reply #81 on: December 16, 2012, 11:26:17 AM »
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I have done some test using Epson V600 and Epson software and I've got very impressive results. This is my workflow, preparing the image for printing in my z3200ps 44". All are 120-220 negatives, mostly Kodak Portra 160.

1- Scan the file with no color correction at all. 48 bits at 3200dpi, original size.
2- Open the image in PS and assign a Adobe RGB 1998 profile.
3- I do all the toning and color corrections, also all the sharpenning tasks with unsharp mask
4- Rezise the image with 600ppi
5- Print at native 600ppi in LR

I also do some minor HSL color correction in LR, because its very intuitive.
I hope it helps somebody.
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Alan Klein
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« Reply #82 on: December 18, 2012, 08:12:32 PM »
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chichornio:  Do you have any samples you can share with us?  Thanks.  Alan.
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dmerger
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« Reply #83 on: December 18, 2012, 10:02:32 PM »
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Chichornio, just curious, why do you assign aRGB to your scans in PS?  Doesnt you scan software embed a profile when you scan?

I used to do all my corrections in PS, but switched to ACR, and now LR, because for me I found ACR/LR easier to use and I could get better results.  So again, just curious, why do you prefer PS?
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Dean Erger
chichornio
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« Reply #84 on: December 19, 2012, 09:32:13 AM »
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just curious, why do you prefer PS?

PS gives me more tools in sharpenning. Because the scanned image from the Epson V600 looks flat, I prefer to make subtle sharpenning with layers in PS. Then, I apply a last stage of sharpenning in the print module in LR depending which paper Ill going to use. Remember that my workflow its made for printing. If Im going to scan some negs for sharing in the web, I would scan the file at lower resolution and color corrected using the Epson software, assigning a sRGB profile.
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dmerger
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« Reply #85 on: December 19, 2012, 10:05:55 AM »
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Im not questioning why you use aRGB instead of sRGB, but just wondered why your Epson scan software doesnt embed a color profile when you scan. 

(BTW, I use ProPhoto and sharpen in PS, but use PhotoKit Sharpener to do it.  Also, the way I scan, my scan software doesnt embed a profile to my scans, but in PS I first assign my scanner profile to my scan and then convert to ProPhoto.)
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Dean Erger
Mark D Segal
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« Reply #86 on: December 19, 2012, 12:49:29 PM »
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..............

(BTW, I use ProPhoto and sharpen in PS, but use PhotoKit Sharpener to do it.  Also, the way I scan, my scan software doesnt embed a profile to my scans, but in PS I first assign my scanner profile to my scan and then convert to ProPhoto.)


Good workflow.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
chichornio
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« Reply #87 on: December 19, 2012, 07:44:39 PM »
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I dramaticaly changed my workflow again. Im posting a full resolution jpg to share with you (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7858877/img021.jpg). The file has no color correction and sharpenning at all. Its a raw file from my scanner with just the resizing applied in PS (600ppi and Adobe RGB profile applied)
The film its a 220 Portra 160ASA, taken handheld with a Fujica G690BL with a 100mm lens.
Scanned with a Epson Perfection V600 Photo and Epson software version 3.83ES, emulsion side up and original Epson film holders (I scan one film at a time and I use the card supplied with the scanner to flatten the film)

The steps I followed are these:
1- 48 bits color
2- 4800ppi
3- Only Digital ICE applied
4- In the color tab, Continuos Auto exposure, gamma 2.2, level low (my software its in Spanish, sorry for the translation)
4- Saved as a 16 bits tif, with an original Epson sRGB profile
5- Its a huge file, but I think its worth.

Then I open the file in PS, convert to Adobe RGB profile and do all the toning, color correction and sharpening tasks. I stick with Adobe RGB because my printer recognize this color space and the driver doesnt do any other conversion.
I wouldnt go for more than 24" on the largest size of the print (thats a lot!!! for a prosumer flatbed scanner). If I need to print bigger, I would go for a drumm scanner for sure.

Any opinion are very welcome!!
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dmerger
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« Reply #88 on: December 19, 2012, 09:14:44 PM »
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Maybe Mark or someone with more experience with the Epson scan software will chime in, but I assume that the Epson sRGB profile is just the regular sRGB.  sRGB has a much smaller color gamut than aRGB, so you're not capturing all the colors you would if you instead scanned with aRGB, which would also eliminate one color conversion.  Note that just converting to aRGB doesn't get back those lost colors.  Once their gone, you can't get them back.
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Dean Erger
Mark D Segal
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« Reply #89 on: December 20, 2012, 05:47:46 AM »
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Maybe Mark or someone with more experience with the Epson scan software will chime in, but I assume that the Epson sRGB profile is just the regular sRGB.  sRGB has a much smaller color gamut than aRGB, so you're not capturing all the colors you would if you instead scanned with aRGB, which would also eliminate one color conversion.  Note that just converting to aRGB doesn't get back those lost colors.  Once their gone, you can't get them back.

A scanner profile should be characterizing the performance of the scanner, in which case it would profile the scanner's gamut reproduction capability, which may not be the same thing as any of the common flavours of RGB. Whether the user then chooses to render the images in sRGB or ARGB or ProPhoto RGB or some other RGB is a separate decision. And yes, sending a scan to file in sRGB is very limiting. I don't recommend it either unless one knows absolutely for sure the images are destined to the Internet or a narrow gamut device and nothing else, ever.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
chichornio
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« Reply #90 on: December 20, 2012, 10:14:06 AM »
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Whether the user then chooses to render the images in sRGB or ARGB or ProPhoto RGB or some other RGB is a separate decision.
May be I dont get it right... In the Epson Software, if I choose the Auto Continuos Exposicion, gamma 2.2 in the color tab, I dont have the option of choosing a profile. I do have the option when I save the 16 bits tif to insert or not a profile. If I select yes, the software automatically insert the Epson sRGB profile. If I dont select that option, I can insert the profile later when I open the file in PS. What should I do? If Im scanning the 6x9 fim at 48bits color, isnt all the color information already in the tif saved regardless of the icc profile I choose to insert?
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dmerger
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« Reply #91 on: December 20, 2012, 12:40:30 PM »
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Chichornio, it seems very strange that your only option is to use sRGB.  Im not familiar with the Epson scan software, so maybe thats the case, but I can hardly believe so. Isnt there some color management tab where you can select the profile to use? It may be worthwhile to play around with your software to see if you can find another option.

If you dont insert a profile when scanning, then typically youd have a scanner profile that youd assign to your scans when you open them in PS.  A scanner profile may be included in your scanner software.  Usually it would be installed when you install the software.  So, when you open a scan in PS, see if you can find your scanner profile and assign that profile to your scan, then convert to aRGB.  Another alternative is to create your own scanner profile, but I wont go into that possibility now.

(Maybe a little explanation of how your scanner works will help.  I apologize if Im rehashing information you already know.  Your model of scanner captures color in a way that is likely unique to your scanner, not a standard sRGB or aRGB color space.  Hence, the usual procedure to assign your scanner profile first rather than a straight assignment of a standard color profile.  If you select a standard color profile in your scanner software, your software effectually does such a two step process. In other words, say you have a computer program that translates documents. If you have a document written in French and want it translated to English, youd first tell the program that the original document is in French (in other words youd assign French to that document), then convert that document into English.  Instead, if you took the French document and just told the translation program that your document was in English (in other words you assigned English), youd end up with gibberish.  Well, assigning the wrong color profile to a scan is similar, but the results are not as dramatic as in my translation analogy.

Regarding your last question, the short answer is no.  I hope you can bear with another analogy.  Think of your scanner color as water.  Your scanner can output a number of different colors to fill up a gallon jug.  sRGB, however, only holds a quart.  So, to get your scanner colors to fit into a quart container, your scanner software has to throw away a bunch of colors.  Once those colors are gone, you cant get them back. Actually, the colors that don't fit into the gamut of sRGB, for example, are changed into colors that do fit.  So, you end up with a smaller number of colors.
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Dean Erger
chichornio
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« Reply #92 on: December 20, 2012, 03:04:05 PM »
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Thanks dmerger for your detailed explanation. Im very novel to film scanning. I came from the digital world. Now Im shooting some 6x9 negatives with my Fujica G690BL and I have a HP 3200ps 44" printer and a Epson V600 Photo. After several test I did (even with Vuescan and Silverfast) I came to the conclusion I would like to have the best scanned image I can get out of the Epson V600 with almost no intervention of me. Like a RAW file. Im posting the option that the Epson Software gives me, and I can say that this workflow gave me the best TIF file from the many others test I did. If you saw the JPG I posted previously in this thread, with no color correction and sharpenning at all, the scanned file looks very promising for postprocessing and printing. I did a crop and printed it on Satin paper, and I really like the results (specially in the shadows area. They look very well defined with excellent gradients)
Regarding the icc profile, I think the best way to manage it if I understood you right, its to save the file with NO icc profile inserted, and then assign a proper profile in PS (could be a RGB Epson that come bundled with the software, or Adobe RGB, or Prophoto).
Any other suggestions will be very welcome.
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Alan Klein
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« Reply #93 on: December 20, 2012, 03:47:10 PM »
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Do all these color gamuts really matter for practical purposes of scanning landscapes.  I'll be adjusting in post anyway to a certain extent.  I'm not trying to match fabic colors for a shirt manufacturer.  What's the point of going beyond sRBG?
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dmerger
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« Reply #94 on: December 20, 2012, 04:18:29 PM »
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Chichornio, in the Epson configuration panel it appears that if you select "ColorSync" and for "Target" select "Adobe RGB" the Epson scan software will start with your scanner profile and convert to aRGB.  If I'm correct, when you open your scan in PS it should already have aRGB embedded.

I'm not sure about the "Source (Scanner)" option.  I assume that that is the profile for your scanner.  What other choices are offered?  

You might also try checking the "No Color Correction" option and see what that does.

If you don't embed a profile with your scan software, then in PS you'd want to first assign to your scan the profile which the scan has.  Depending on how you have your scan software configured, the profile your scan has could be your scanner profile, sRGB, aRGB or some other profile.  

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Dean Erger
dmerger
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« Reply #95 on: December 20, 2012, 04:32:34 PM »
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I think that a large color gamut is important for my landscape photos.  Let me try another analogy.   You want to make a colorful mosaic.  You can choose two boxes of tiles.  Box 1 contains tiles with 75 different colors. Box 2 contains tiles with all the 75 colors as Box 1, but also has tiles with 25 more colors, mostly more saturated colors. 

Box 1 can make a very nice, colorful mosaic. The mosaic made with Box 2, however, looks better.  Its more colorful, has finer, more subtle tones, has more snap and looks more lively and lifelike.

In my analogy, Box 1 would be sRGB, Box 2 would be aRGB.
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Dean Erger
Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #96 on: December 20, 2012, 04:46:50 PM »
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Quote
You might also try checking the "No Color Correction" option and see what that does.

That's the Raw state of the scanner and is used to build a custom ICC profile by scanning a color target with that setting selected. It turns all scanner tonality and other image enhancing features off. I wouldn't recommend it unless dim, dull, flat scans makes a good starting point for post processing.

Just FYI you should check out the results this guy's getting from MF film scans using a DSLR:

http://photo.net/digital-darkroom-forum/00b7Fk

The amount of detail captured is incredible compared to the Epson scan.
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dmerger
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« Reply #97 on: December 20, 2012, 04:55:59 PM »
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Im very novel to film scanning. I came from the digital world. 

Film scanning still is the digital world.  The essential part of your scanner is its CCD light sensor.  Digital cameras use the same CCD technology (some use CMOS sensors, but for the present purposes are equivalent).  Your scanner is nothing more than a specialized digital camera. 

Obviously there are significant differences between a scanner and dSLR, but on a very basic level they are the same.  I guess what Im getting at is that a lot of the concepts you already know from using a digital camera also apply to scanning, such as color management.  So, I think youre on the right track.
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Dean Erger
chichornio
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« Reply #98 on: December 20, 2012, 04:57:34 PM »
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Chichornio, in the Epson configuration panel it appears that if you select "ColorSync" and for "Target" select "Adobe RGB" the Epson scan software will start with your scanner profile and convert to aRGB.  If I'm correct, when you open your scan in PS it should already have aRGB embedded.

Yes, Ive tried that option, but when you select ColorSync option, the auto continuous exposure is deselected. And Ive gotten much better results in my scans using the auto continuos exposure, gamma 2.2 value and the slider to low (turns a softer scan, but with a room for later sharpening). So if I stick with the bundled Epson software, its better to save the file with no icc profile embebbed and assign a RGB profile in PS.
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dmerger
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« Reply #99 on: December 20, 2012, 05:17:23 PM »
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Im not sure what auto continuous exposure does, but if its working for you, use it. So, when you use it, and you have selected embed profile in the other panel, what happens?  Still no profile embedded when you open your scan in PS?
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Dean Erger
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