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Author Topic: Epson Exhibition Fiber clone  (Read 9077 times)
chez
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« on: December 19, 2010, 07:02:02 PM »
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I read somewhere on this form about another version of the EEF that is distributed by another source. Can someone let me who else makes this paper and what the name of this paper is.

thanks  harry
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hsmeets
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« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2010, 03:03:56 AM »
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I read somewhere on this form about another version of the EEF that is distributed by another source. Can someone let me who else makes this paper and what the name of this paper is.

thanks  harry

I read a remarks by Keith Cooper / Northlight Images that he found the EFF to be surprisingly similar to Innova's IFA49. It could be more likely that the Epson EFF is the clone and not the other way around.
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neile
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« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2010, 09:28:55 AM »
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I specifically asked about this through a friend who has close contacts at Epson, and they insist that while there are plenty of rumours out there, EFF is different than the Innova.

Neil
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Neil Enns
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Aristoc
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« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2010, 01:21:25 PM »
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If you do find such a thing it is prob. going to cost the same, if that is what you're looking for a clone.
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keith_cooper
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« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2010, 01:50:37 PM »
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There are slight differences in the surface finish between the Innova and Epson, which I'm rather glad of, since the Epson TPP (ExFib in the US) is the only paper so far to exhibit any surface marking in our 8300.

The paper companies are very coy about admitting who they deal with (they may not even be allowed to) but from looking at the two papers together I find the IFA 49 very close (but not the same).

After talking with a different paper supplier, selling their own branded papers, I found out a lot more about this. Unfortunately the info was strictly for my own use in producing some profiles for them, so I can't freely discuss it, other than to point out the well known fact that there are only a limited number of paper mills and a limited number of specialised coaters

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narikin
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« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2010, 03:41:58 PM »
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Its basically the same as Innova IFA49, give or take a tiny bit of tweaking.   Keith was certainly not the original one to unravel this. 

If you want to compare papers, use Ernst's Spectrum Viz:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

from this you can see who makes what pretty effectively,
eg:  Canson Baryta Photographique and Ilford Galerie Gold Fibre Silk. have a surprisingly similar plot  Wink

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keith_cooper
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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2010, 05:40:50 PM »
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 ...Keith was certainly not the original one to unravel this. 

Nope, never made any claim to that :-)

As 'paper design' and printers get better, I do have to admit finding it more and more difficult in saying that any one combination is superior to another, without just saying that it's because I like the look of X+Y better than A+B for a particular image of mine...

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deanwork
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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2010, 10:53:53 PM »
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Innova was the first by at least a couple of years to produce this paper.  After Crane produced the Silver Rag, Innova was the first to make a brighter white fiber gloss media, then followed by Ilford, then everyone else. We were using the Innova US Gloss and the Semi-Gloss, that I like better, a long time before Epson got into those products.

The differences between the Innova  and EEF are the weight. The EEF wasn't available in rolls for a long time because of its thickness, which as many have pointed out isn't always a good thing, depending on your printer. If they offer it in rolls now I assume it isn't as thick and difficult to flatten.

I recently bought a roll of the Moab Colorado and it looks and profiles the same as the Innova. I assume Innova makes this for a number of companies now, maybe with very subtle differences so they can claim they aren't the same. Epson used to say the same thing about the papers that Premier Art made for them, and continue to make for them too, with very subtle differences if any. Epson has always contracted out their paper production of course. Since they are such a big customer I'm sure their suppliers are sworn to keep their mouths shut about it.

j
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keith_cooper
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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2010, 04:27:52 AM »
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It seems to be a more fragile surface on the TPP/ExFib which leads to marking in our iPF8300, rather than any weight difference. I've run noticeably thicker media through it with no marking.
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2010, 04:56:32 AM »
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I recently bought a roll of the Moab Colorado and it looks and profiles the same as the Innova. I assume Innova makes this for a number of companies now, maybe with very subtle differences so they can claim they aren't the same. Epson used to say the same thing about the papers that Premier Art made for them, and continue to make for them too, with very subtle differences if any. Epson has always contracted out their paper production of course. Since they are such a big customer I'm sure their suppliers are sworn to keep their mouths shut about it.

j

Spectrum plots are quite identical between the Moab Colorado Fiber Gloss (and Satin) and Innova IFA49.

I expect to add more Epson papers to the list within the next two weeks. Someone has a sample book that I don't have and Epson didn't respond so far.

There will be Tecco papers added too.



met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

New: Spectral plots of +180 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm


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narikin
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« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2010, 06:16:07 AM »
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Spectrum plots are quite identical between the Moab Colorado Fiber Gloss (and Satin) and Innova IFA49.

I expect to add more Epson papers to the list within the next two weeks. Someone has a sample book that I don't have and Epson didn't respond so far.
Ernst Dinkla

Thanks Ernst, I was hoping to see Epson's 'own' paper range in there sometime.
Maybe I can send you a USA sample pack if you like?

SpectrumViz and Aardenberg are two new and extremely useful resources now. we did not have either of these a year/18months ago.

with all this talk of EEF/Innova IFA49/ Moab Colorado, then you look up EEF on Aardenberg and find it has really POOR longevity.  All those FWA's going bad and ruining the images.

I am mad about it as I used EEF for a large important exhibition in 2008, at great expense, that was all very costly to frame. d'oh.  Thanks to Aardenberg and Ernst I am now wiser. But back then Epson marketed it as a premium paper for Exhibition prints, hence the name and the price!  Sad
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deanwork
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« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2010, 04:04:33 PM »
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Wow, I just checked out Aardenburg and the obas are burning out rapidly on the EEF. Just don't 'exhibit' it in daylight.  I assume the same for the Moab Colorado and the Innova as well. So much for bright white fiber gloss.

At the same time I looked at the results of the Hahnemuhle Photorag Baryta and Photorag Pearl and they are holding up extremely well. The base color of the PR Baryta isn't going anywhere.

By the way the Cone Type 5 100% rag is just as good as the Silver Rag and a lot cheaper. It is producing the absolute best gloss results with the HP Z series and the black and white color is perfect and no bronzing visible..... and I love the texture, even with small things.

john
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Light Seeker
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« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2010, 04:29:57 PM »
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By the way the Cone Type 5 100% rag is just as good as the Silver Rag and a lot cheaper. It is producing the absolute best gloss results with the HP Z series and the black and white color is perfect and no bronzing visible..... and I love the texture, even with small things.

I have both EEF and Cone Type 5. I bought EEF to take my Cone Selenium prints to a cooler tone than one gets with Type 5 (i.e. variety). I found it very interesting to compare colour prints made on both (3800). One would think that EEF's bright white surface would make this paper punchier. However, in spite of it's warmer tone I found Cone Type 5 punchier than EEF. It's also a Baryta paper, so it's sharper.

Type 5 is OBA free and John's right, the texture is beautiful. I chose it over Photorag Baryta and Photorag Pearl (and EEF). It's worth a look if a slightly warmer tone would suit your work.

Terry.
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Aristoc
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« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2010, 06:29:22 PM »
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if you print black and white on EEF, Hah Photo Rag Baryta, Pearl...aren't the colours going to look different with each paper?
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neile
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« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2010, 08:06:24 PM »
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What is this "Cone Type 5"? Never heard of it!

Neil
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Neil Enns
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deanwork
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« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2010, 08:24:39 PM »
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http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.362672/sc.13/category.28018/.f

I did a color test yesterday with the Atkinson target and the color rendition looks good, as good as Silver Rag and PR Baryta so I ordered a 44" roll. Good price in rolls and excellent for monochrome with all these printers.

john
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Light Seeker
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« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2010, 08:43:00 PM »
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if you print black and white on EEF, Hah Photo Rag Baryta, Pearl...aren't the colours going to look different with each paper?

I make black and white prints with dedicated monochrome inks and yes, each paper will interact with the inks and produce a different "tone". The choice of paper is part of the creative process for me.

Terry.
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neile
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« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2010, 11:35:48 PM »
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I make black and white prints with dedicated monochrome inks and yes, each paper will interact with the inks and produce a different "tone". The choice of paper is part of the creative process for me.

Terry.

Reminds me of being in the darkroom making lith prints, where different combos of developer/dilution and paper produce different results Smiley

Neil
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Neil Enns
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narikin
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« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2010, 05:18:58 AM »
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Type 5 is OBA free and John's right, the texture is beautiful. I chose it over Photorag Baryta and Photorag Pearl (and EEF). It's worth a look if a slightly warmer tone would suit your work.

where does it say Cone Type5 its OBA free? I can't see that on the sales page linked.
if it is, they should make more of that fact.

Yes I think the fact that Aardenberg allowed the EEF paper report out for free shows how seriously bad a result it is. I can imagine a class action lawsuit happening, as they promote it specifically for exhibiting, and its one of the worst papers you could use for that.
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2010, 05:46:36 AM »
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Yes I think the fact that Aardenberg allowed the EEF paper report out for free shows how seriously bad a result it is. I can imagine a class action lawsuit happening, as they promote it specifically for exhibiting, and its one of the worst papers you could use for that.

It isn't in the list of Digigraphie certified papers. Looks like the use of different standards by Epson.

It would be interesting to compare that list with Aardenburg's test results.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/




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