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Author Topic: Mark D Segal's review of Epson 4900  (Read 17030 times)
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« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2011, 11:33:59 AM »
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There was one reported observation in this forum that the 4900 showed more color inconstancy with changing light ("metamerism") compared to a 7890 printer output.

You mean metameric failure don't ya? :~)

I tend to discount that one observation as an outlier...I've printed with every Epson printer since the 10000 and can tell you that with each round of head and ink improvements, metameric failure is continually reduced. I don't see any metameric failure with my 9900 and I have several viewing booths to use for comparison. I would also note that gloss differential also seems better with the 9900 at least on the papers I print on; EFP, Luster, Semi. GD isn't an issue with fine art paper.

I would also say that Epson has tended to understate the usefulness of O & G for photos...originally designed for proofing to hit spot colors, Epson was actually worried that the added O & G would make it more difficult to profile (they had the same worry back when they released the R800 with red and blue inks). But I don't think the 9900 is any more difficult to produce profiles for than any other printer. The new dithering produced in association with Munsell and the internal separations from input to Cc, Mm, Y, K1 K2 K3, O, G seem very reliable for both photo and proofing as long as you print at 1440 or above (there is an issue when printing out at 720 but I won't get into that here).
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2011, 01:30:24 PM »
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I saw no issues creating a custom profile for the 4900/Ilford Gold Fibre Silk combination.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
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« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2011, 01:50:15 PM »
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I have completed further consultation with Epson about the two matters Jeff raised: High speed on versus off, and head alignment.

On the speed issue I am advised: "There is no perceivable visual quality difference between high speed on and off for continuous tone color photography at normal viewing distances. If you are going to get into a dot placement "pixel peeping" accuracy discussion for those looking with a loop then there can be a visible difference .......... where there may be some overshoot/spray of the dot on the return pass. .......if your system is incapable of keeping the printer at full speed (it pauses in between passes) then the recommendation is to shift to uni-directional.......We also use Uni-d on media types that have higher ink loads and longer dry down periods. Again this is mostly proofing applications with Clear and Metallic films. ...............High Speed On and Off is a tool to be used as needed depending on the circumstances and or personal preference."

On the alignment issue: "If you are going to do your own profiling then it is best to start from a known reference and run a head alignment."

Thanks for raising these matters Jeff. I think this is now sufficiently clear on both counts and your advice is consistent.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2011, 02:28:44 PM »
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You mean metameric failure don't ya? :~)


No. For that you need two patches made with different colorants and they shouldn't match under a light source. I didn't mean a metameric match either as that is about two patches with different colorants that make a match under a light source. I did mean color inconstancy under changing lighting and added ("metamerism") as that is the term normally but incorrectly used in forums like this one. I do so because sometimes there are readers that want to correct the incorrect use of ("metamerism") but I add ("metamerism") to get the message across to people that are less strict on terms but still know what it more or less means in practice. But your response means I should take yet another route to get there :-)

Yes, that single observation isn't supported by other observations so far. The fact that the prints were created on an Epson booth with Epson people at hand and the writer very sure about the conditions the prints were made under and his decission to go for a 7890 instead of a 4900 for that reason gave it some impact. Still curious what actually happened.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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Noel Greene
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« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2011, 02:36:23 PM »
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I have just finished reading this extensive review. I have a 3800 but need to move to a roll capability printer so I am considering the 4900. Mark's excellent review has given me a lot to think about and has answered a lot of questions. Great review .. thanks a lot
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2011, 02:37:08 PM »
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No. For that you need two patches made with different colorants and they shouldn't match under a light source. I didn't mean a metameric match either as that is about two patches with different colorants that make a match under a light source. I did mean color inconstancy under changing lighting and added ("metamerism") as that is the term normally but incorrectly used in forums like this one. I do so because sometimes there are readers that want to correct the incorrect use of ("metamerism") but I add ("metamerism") to get the message across to people that are less strict on terms but still know what it more or less means in practice. But your response means I should take yet another route to get there :-)

Yes, that single observation isn't supported by other observations so far. The fact that the prints were created on an Epson booth with Epson people at hand and the writer very sure about the conditions the prints were made under and his decission to go for a 7890 instead of a 4900 for that reason gave it some impact. Still curious what actually happened.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/


From all I've read on this distinction we are indeed discussing "color inconstancy". That was the issue going back to the 2000P and that is what one examines for ever since: the same colour changing appearance under different illuminants. I'd also be curious to know how that apparent outlier result occurred. Any way to find out?

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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2011, 03:11:32 PM »
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From all I've read on this distinction we are indeed discussing "color inconstancy". That was the issue going back to the 2000P and that is what one examines for ever since: the same colour changing appearance under different illuminants. I'd also be curious to know how that apparent outlier result occurred. Any way to find out?



The original thread was wiped by accident but I tried to pin down in that thread possible faults in the printmaking process but none could be found. Same paper was used etc.

Some miracles shouldn't be explained.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

New: Spectral plots of +190 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2011, 05:12:15 PM »
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I have just finished reading this extensive review. I have a 3800 but need to move to a roll capability printer so I am considering the 4900. Mark's excellent review has given me a lot to think about and has answered a lot of questions. Great review .. thanks a lot

You are welcome - glad you found it useful.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
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« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2011, 06:21:41 PM »
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I'll be back in the office next week and can print on both a 4900 and a 7890 and a 9900.  It'll take me a couple of days to catch up to have time.

Does anyone have a suggested image for testing this issue?  I'd be happy to mail out the results to someone like Ernst for analysis.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2011, 10:15:34 PM »
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Phil, this should be very interesting if you can manage to do it. I think any image which has a good representative tonal scale when converted to B&W in as neutral a manner possible would probably be ideal. To normalize the test conditions the profiles for all the printers/papers (I would suggest one matte and one gloss) should be done with the same spectro and software, and of course you would be using the same papers in all printers, and in each case the Epson driver with as similar settings as possible between the printers. With as much as possible normalized, only the printer vintage and inkset should be the determinative factors of any differing outcomes.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
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« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2011, 10:42:19 PM »
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Gloss and matte is a good idea and I'll do that.  I intend to use Epson media with Epson canned profiles and appropriate driver settings, using a standard colour managed workflow.  I think that should minimise errors and variations.

Perhaps I should do both colour and B&W both with and without ABW.  3 printers, 2 media, three outputs = 18 prints.

I'll get back to this middle of next week, once I'm caught up with work, which will no doubt be overflowing upon my return!
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2011, 04:23:25 AM »
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A gloss paper with a wide gamut and an Atkinson evaluation image (including the B&W greyscale range) printed in color mode should be a worst case scenario. Epson paper and profiles. If possible a paper with little FBA to exclude that effect on color constancy and a paper with more FBA. 6 prints only needed. If that total doesn't show problems then there are no problems. Don't look for an absolute match under 5000-5500 K as there will be no match (at least not between the 7890 and x900 prints), it is about unexpected shifts per print when lighting is changed. You will notice the differences if there are differences. I observed it between the Z3100 prints made with the HP driver (good) and made with the Wasatch SoftRip, same inkset, same paper, different media presets and profiles.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

New: Spectral plots of +190 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm





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iCanvas
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« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2011, 06:56:11 AM »
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Mark,

can you tell me about the back of the 4900? I have a 4880 and I print on canvas. With my 4880 I can put through the back of the printer a 18.25" piece of canvas and print a 16x20 with about a 1" bleed of canvas. (Of course I have to take off the roller attachment to do this) A 1" bleed of canvas is sufficient for me to stretch the canvas on a stretcher bar. This is great when I only need to print one 16x20. I only print 16x20's on my 9900 when I need pairs. My local Epson dealer doesn't have a display model. I would opt for one of these if I knew I could do the same with the 4900.

Thanks,

Gar
Pittsburgh, PA
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ceyman
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« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2011, 07:34:02 AM »
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Thank you for this excellent review.  It is a great service to 3800 owners like myself who have been considering the move.  Personally, your review has saved me a lot of money...well, not really.  It has just redirected it to a new lens instead of a new printer.

Thanks,

Carl
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2011, 08:33:02 AM »
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Mark,

can you tell me about the back of the 4900? I have a 4880 and I print on canvas. With my 4880 I can put through the back of the printer a 18.25" piece of canvas and print a 16x20 with about a 1" bleed of canvas. (Of course I have to take off the roller attachment to do this) A 1" bleed of canvas is sufficient for me to stretch the canvas on a stretcher bar. This is great when I only need to print one 16x20. I only print 16x20's on my 9900 when I need pairs. My local Epson dealer doesn't have a display model. I would opt for one of these if I knew I could do the same with the 4900.

Thanks,

Gar
Pittsburgh, PA

With the Epson 4900 you do not remove the roll-holder. For thick media you use the front manual feeder, making sure there is some room behind the printer for the paper to adjust to the print position. The print will come out from the front resting on the tray. All very convenient.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
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« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2011, 08:39:07 AM »
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A gloss paper with a wide gamut and an Atkinson evaluation image (including the B&W greyscale range) printed in color mode should be a worst case scenario. Epson paper and profiles. If possible a paper with little FBA to exclude that effect on color constancy and a paper with more FBA. 6 prints only needed. If that total doesn't show problems then there are no problems. Don't look for an absolute match under 5000-5500 K as there will be no match (at least not between the 7890 and x900 prints), it is about unexpected shifts per print when lighting is changed. You will notice the differences if there are differences. I observed it between the Z3100 prints made with the HP driver (good) and made with the Wasatch SoftRip, same inkset, same paper, different media presets and profiles.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

New: Spectral plots of +190 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm


Yes, I agree - the Atkinson printer test page would be an excellent test object for this exercise. It has everything one needs and then some. The one option I would perhaps recommend however would be to also select one matte paper, to test for whether the paper surface makes a difference to colour constancy appearance under different illuminants. Ernst, if you know for sure from your previous work that it doesn't, then this suggestion could be skipped, saving time and paper.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
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« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2011, 03:04:31 PM »
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Thanks Ernst and Mark for your continued suggestions for this.
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jwlimages
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« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2011, 06:35:07 PM »
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Mark, thank you for your very thorough review. Sounds like an excellent printer - I've been waiting quite awhile for this, patiently nursing my ancient SP4000 along...

Sorry to come out of left field here - don't want to hijack the thread, but had to ask:

You mentioned that you've successfully used the old Pulse ColorElite system with OS X 10.6.4. This was among the many things I lost when I upgraded my old Dual G5 to a 2009 quad-core 'Nehalem' machine. Running 10.6.5, the install disk won't run.

How did you get ColorElite installed on your system? Is your Mac hardware comparable to mine (I'm wondering if it's a h/w issue instead of Snow Leopard)?

Thanks again, & best New Year wishes.

John Lund
JWL Images
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2011, 06:56:15 PM »
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Mark, thank you for your very thorough review. Sounds like an excellent printer - I've been waiting quite awhile for this, patiently nursing my ancient SP4000 along...

Sorry to come out of left field here - don't want to hijack the thread, but had to ask:

You mentioned that you've successfully used the old Pulse ColorElite system with OS X 10.6.4. This was among the many things I lost when I upgraded my old Dual G5 to a 2009 quad-core 'Nehalem' machine. Running 10.6.5, the install disk won't run.

How did you get ColorElite installed on your system? Is your Mac hardware comparable to mine (I'm wondering if it's a h/w issue instead of Snow Leopard)?

Thanks again, & best New Year wishes.

John Lund
JWL Images

XRite doesn't support this and they were very surprised when I told them I got it to work. Seems as if it is hit and miss. I am still on OSX 10.6.4. - haven't installed the update to 10.6.5. I'm using a Mac Pro with a pair of 6-core Intel Xeon processors with hyperthreading, 2.66GHz. I inserted the program disc into the tray and just installed it in the usual way one installs programs on a Mac. No special manoeuvres, and so far so good.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
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« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2011, 07:17:52 PM »
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Quote
XRite doesn't support this and they were very surprised when I told them I got it to work...

--  Hmmm, well, who knows about some of these things. Thanks for the response, tho.

Maybe I'll try a network install from the Dual G5 machine.

Regards,

John
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