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Author Topic: Artwork Repro in the MF World  (Read 7507 times)
phero66
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« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2011, 02:16:34 PM »
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Ok, it has been a long week and now I'm finally getting back to tackling this transition to MF.  Glancing over what everyone has said, looks like for single-shot bare minimum is in the p45 range.  There is the Aptus 75s too, but at 33mp it does not offer a whole lot more resolution from what I shoot now.  Multi-shot was a tempting path, but two problems.  First, other than 324 and 528c models, it is quite hard to track down used equipment.  Also I should thank Eric, he was very kind to drop by and demo his 528c & Rollei 6008 setup, but under my lights 16-shot kept giving an error (but no specifics).  Probably it was my ballasts in the Fluorescent lights, so if I want 16-shot mode for resolution I would need to spend $$$ on strobes.  I'm curious though what the minimum (pack/brand) would be for this type of setup light-wise since for very large artwork (13ft long dimension) I'm using 6 Tota's on two poles.  Trying to buy Grafit A4's for this would kill me @ one pack per head as another member is using.

Software: I tried Phocus with the 528c files, and really like the "Reproduction" mode, seems like an easy path for ICC creation & selection for input profiles.  So far I have no issues running it on my Windows7 64bit box.  I need to re-evaluate CP1 since the new version has come out.  From what I remember the correct path is to linearize the tone curve and output with no profile for icc creation.  On DAC I called Hasselblad and they said the circuit board on the 528 could not pass on lens information to the software, only the new back models could do this, so unless I'm wrong I don't think you can do that with the 324 and H2...
Hardware Concerns: the Hard Drives in the image banks concern me.  If it were easy to just open them up, hookup the Hard drive to my system and ghost(image) the disk as a backup that would be ok.  I can find a replacement probably and keep them as spares. But according to Hasselblad USA they have to be shipped overseas for repair - ouch.

I'm thinking about the Mamiya RZ67 at this point.  I believe the 75mm shift, and the 140mm macro would be all I need.  My main concern is the 75mm, using Capture Integrations Focal Length Equivalent Calculator it looks like a 36mm on my 1DSMKIII.  For a few large pieces I shoot (and print 24x36) each year, I usually rent the Canon 135 1.4L, so the Mamiya equivalent needs to be as sharp at the edges and provide at least the same amount of view as what I get with the Canon (sensor crop would be P45).  But which version of the body, is there a significant difference, shooting digital, between the II & IID versions for what I do?  Also I like how the back will rotate on the body over the Phase AF/DF bodies.

I should mention it has also been recommended to me to purchase a DF body with 55mm LS & Phase 120 Macro for the same type of work.  This setup will be many thousands more then the Mamiya, but would be a nice thing to use for other creative processes.  The 55mm would need to be sharper then the Mamiya 75 shift at the corners to justify the purchase though.

Hasselblad route... If I went this path it would be because I could track down a CF-39MS and take advantage of the DAC with a used H1/2 body.  But the cost of Multi-shot, both for the back and adequate 16-shot strobes is inhibiting.

Tech Camera I'm tempted by a used WDS or new WRS body.  I'm just hesitant to have to remove the back each time I compose and focus - which could be quite a few times in a shoot.  Unless of course Live-View works really well for comp along with focusing - I have a feeling is better at checking focus...

If someone has a 4-shot larger multi-shot back they are considering selling let me know, because I know those will work with my current lights.

Thanks again for all the sage advice!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 05:08:03 PM by phero66 » Logged
yaya
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« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2011, 03:16:52 PM »
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Ok, it has been a long week and now I'm finally getting back to tackling this transition to MF.  Glancing over what everyone has said, looks like for single-shot bare minimum is in the p45 range.  There is the Aptus 75s too, but at 33mp it does not offer a whole lot more resolution from what I shoot now.  Multi-shot was a tempting path, but two problems.  First, other than 324 and 528c models, it is quite hard to track down used equipment.  Also I should thank Erik, he was very kind to drop by and demo his 528c & Rollei 6008 setup, but under my lights 16-shot kept giving an error (but no specifics).  Probably it was my ballasts in the Fluorescent lights, so if I want 16-shot mode for resolution I would need to spend $$$ on strobes.  I'm curious though what the minimum (pack/brand) would be for this type of setup light-wise since for very large artwork (13ft long dimension) I'm using 6 Tota's on two poles.  Trying to buy Grafit A4's for this would kill me @ one pack per head as another member is using.

Software: I tried Phocus with the 528c files, and really like the "Reproduction" mode, seems like an easy path for ICC creation & selection for input profiles.  So far I have no issues running it on my Windows7 64bit box.  I need to re-evaluate CP1 since the new version has come out.  From what I remember the correct path is to linearize the tone curve and output with no profile for icc creation.  On DAC I called Hasselblad and they said the circuit board on the 528 could not pass on lens information to the software, only the new back models could do this, so unless I'm wrong I don't think you can do that with the 324 and H2...
Hardware Concerns: the Hard Drives in the image banks concern me.  If it were easy to just open them up, hookup the Hard drive to my system and ghost(image) the disk as a backup that would be ok.  I can find a replacement probably and keep them as spares. But according to Hasselblad USA they have to be shipped overseas for repair - ouch.

I'm thinking about the Mamiya RZ67 at this point.  I believe the 75mm shift, and the 140mm macro would be all I need.  My main concern is the 75mm, using Capture Integrations Focal Length Equivalent Calculator it looks like a 36mm on my 1DSMKIII.  For a few large pieces I shoot (and print 24x36) each year, I usually rent the Canon 135 1.4L, so the Mamiya equivalent needs to be as sharp at the edges and provide at least the same amount of view as what I get with the Canon (sensor crop would be P45).  But which version of the body, is there a significant difference, shooting digital, between the II & IID versions for what I do?  Also I like how the back will rotate on the body over the Phase AF/DF bodies.

I should mention it has also been recommended to me to purchase a DF body with 55mm LS & Phase 120 Macro for the same type of work.  This setup will be many thousands more then the Mamiya, but would be a nice thing to use for other creative processes.  The 55mm would need to be sharper then the Mamiya 75 shift at the corners to justify the purchase though.

Hasselblad route... If I went this path it would be because I could track down a CF-39MS and take advantage of the DAC with a used H1/2 body.  But the cost of Multi-shot, both for the back and adequate 16-shot strobes is inhibiting.

Tech Camera I'm tempted by a used WDS or new WRS body.  I'm just hesitant to have to remove the back each time I compose and focus - which could be quite a few times in a shoot.  Unless of course Live-View works really well for comp along with focusing - I have a feeling is better at checking focus...

If someone has a 4-shot larger multi-shot back they are considering selling let me know, because I know those will work with my current lights.

Thanks again for all the sage advice!


If you are considering the RZ, IMHO (and biased) an Aptus 75 or 75S will give you the most practical and productive solution, mostly because of the quality of Live View but also the way it works on the RZ with the rotating plate and the simplicity in using just one sync cable

Yair
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Dustbak
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« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2011, 03:42:05 PM »
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Hasselblad is right DAC does NOT work with 528 & 384.  The image bank does sound like a weak point however I have not heard often that one broke down, they tend to be extremely reliable. The 39MS and higher do not support microstep, they only have 4-shot mode (the 50 will have a 6-shot mode later this year probably). I use Elinchrom strobes with the MS without problems.

A lot of choices and a lot of details that can be important to you to think off. Good you tried the 528 with Eric, there is nothing as good as see for yourself how stuff works.

Goodluck!
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 01:53:00 AM by Dustbak » Logged
HarperPhotos
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« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2011, 05:04:07 PM »
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Hello,

I agree with Yaya. A couple of years ago I travel around New Zealand shooting art work by a painter by the name of Ralph Hotere. I shot over 300 paintings using a Mamiya RZ with a Leaf Aptus 75 back. The results where spectacular.

Cheers

Simon
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 05:27:14 PM by HarperPhotos » Logged

Simon Harper
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phero66
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« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2011, 05:07:29 PM »
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Thanks Dustbak for confirming that.  On your Elinchrom's, were you using them in 16-shot mode with the 384/528 too or just 4-shot on the newer backs?  What series are they?

Thanks!
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Peter Devos
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« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2011, 05:15:35 PM »
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Phero, did you use Phocus when capturing on a 384. This is not supposed to work. I used all sort of flashlights on my 384: from broncolor light bleu powerpacks, elinchrom 1500/2000/3000 Ws standard packs out of the 1980 ies to profoto and they all worked perfect. But only with Flexcolor, phocus will give a error pop up screen.
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phero66
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« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2011, 06:48:11 PM »
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Hi Peter, no we used FlexColor.  And Eric told me that in the past FlexColor would give an error based on movement or light fluctuation, but in this case it just errored out (no reason given).  It could have been other factors besides the lights, but my guess is its them.  He has had success with similar parameters using Profoto Strobes.  That is good to hear about the compatibility of strobes you used.  I might have to keep this option open.

Yair, is it the 75/75s that has the rotating option on the RZ or newer Aptus backs as well?  Does this apply to only the "IID" model or the "II" too?  I'm actually leaning towards the Aptus II 10 route if I can get it.
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Nick-T
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« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2011, 08:07:22 PM »
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FYI

The 384 works just fine with Phocus.

The image bank would seem to be a weak point (I have a spare) but in practice they are rock solid.

If you are shooting tethered I cannot see why you would need a ghost of the HD that is inside the image bank.

Nick-T
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phero66
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« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2011, 08:42:13 PM »
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Hi Nick, the reason I bring up ghosting is that I'm unsure how the HD is formatted, and if some mini-OS is running on it, etc.  If it is just a basic drive with nothing more than formatting it would be easy to replace.  Since much of this equipment is 8+ years old, and most HDs become suspect by about year 4 (yes they last longer, but in general I like to replace before failure), I would feel better if I had a backup or a way to create a spare image of the drive.  Maybe drive wear/tear is much less because of tethering, dunno.

From what I understand you can shoot with the 384 in Phocus, 4-shot mode, but not 16-shot; however, you can edit the 16-shot images in Phocus if originally shot in FlexColor.
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2011, 12:49:37 AM »
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A bit of a repeat but I've got a question:  We were able to capture 4 shot images at John's with my 528c but not with the microstep for some reason.  I've used this extensively in microstep mode with my profoto strobes and daylight but never with flourecent lights.  John apparently put a lot of effort into sourcing top quality components for them.  The exposure time needed with the lights and polarizers was about 2 secs so a fairly long period of time to record.  

Yes Phocus works great with this back for multishot mode but doesn't support microstep so we used flexcolor.  I happen to like flexcolor.

Yair, I would love to see some of these comparison images you mentioned.

Eric
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 12:09:46 PM by EricWHiss » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2011, 01:06:45 AM »
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Yair, is it the 75/75s that has the rotating option on the RZ or newer Aptus backs as well?  Does this apply to only the "IID" model or the "II" too?  I'm actually leaning towards the Aptus II 10 route if I can get it.

We make rotating adapters that fit ANY RZ model and they come in 3 "flavours" to suit your back's mount: Mamiya/ Phase One, Hasselblad H and Hasselblad V.

So if you are thinking about getting an Aptus-II 10 you have 3 options in terms of the mount you choose to go with

Yair
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« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2011, 01:55:12 AM »
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Thanks Dustbak for confirming that.  On your Elinchrom's, were you using them in 16-shot mode with the 384/528 too or just 4-shot on the newer backs?  What series are they?

Thanks!

I use. Elinchrom RX600, 1200RX & 2400RX generators and Quadra's. I have used these with the 39MS without problems. I have used the 600RX's (mono's) with the 384 in 16-shot. Personally I have had often issues doing microstep (16-shot) but considering the place I work is on the top floor of a mostly wooden building that should be no surprise.
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Nick-T
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« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2011, 12:59:26 PM »
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Hi Nick, the reason I bring up ghosting is that I'm unsure how the HD is formatted, and if some mini-OS is running on it, etc.  If it is just a basic drive with nothing more than formatting it would be easy to replace.  Since much of this equipment is 8+ years old, and most HDs become suspect by about year 4 (yes they last longer, but in general I like to replace before failure), I would feel better if I had a backup or a way to create a spare image of the drive.  Maybe drive wear/tear is much less because of tethering, dunno.

From what I understand you can shoot with the 384 in Phocus, 4-shot mode, but not 16-shot; however, you can edit the 16-shot images in Phocus if originally shot in FlexColor.


You are right the drive is specially formatted. Plug in a new drive navigate to the maintenance menu (you'll need a dealer code) and format.

I missed that you were referring to 16 shot when you said Phocus did not support the 384/528, quite right phocus does not support 16 shot capture and there seems to be less and less demand for it as pixel counts have climbed.

Nick-T
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phero66
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« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2011, 10:50:33 PM »
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I would like to update this a bit with lighting questions.  So I built some new photographic light banks earlier in the year, but now that I'm looking at MF upgrades, Techcams with copal shutters, etc. flash seems to be on the horizon.

Currently I own two lighting systems.
1. 6 Tota Lights on two stands - while not pretty they do a fine job of lighting anything from small to large artwork, but at the cost of setup time (45min or so per job).  Each head is linear - I like that.
2. 2 40" tall Flourescent Light Banks.  I built these for setup speed and CRI (98).  Setup is 5min or less, and they function as a viewing booth of sorts when shooting and viewing the artwork since Color Temp is closer to laptop screen then the Tungston.  Downside is weight, each fixture runs about 22lbs.

Neither of these systems will work with copals because of the 1 sec. limit unless I go electronic.  On the non techcam side I can go Rollei or Phase/Mamiya 645, but limited to single shots, no stitching unless I move artwork.

Anyways, what I'm getting at is how do I keep a fairly linear light source when moving to strobe, since 99% of strobes are round head designs.  Yes there are the hard style softboxes that Hensel, Profoto & Broncolor make, in addition to the striplights (with flat faces) - are these what everyone is using?  But the cost to make a round light source linear is pretty heavy - unless one could get by with say small "soft" softboxes.  Polarizing a regular softbox would not be easy unless using the Chimera Busterbite I think - but correct me if I'm wrong.

The cheaper alternatives & faster setup (except vs. striplights) would be to use 6 monolights and just gel the reflectors, but the idea of overlapping circles makes me uncomfortable - maybe it shouldn't but it just does.  If there is light fall-off I would rather it trail off in a non circular manner so that it is easier to correct in post.  Which brings up the last option, pencil or lightstick heads.  These seems to be a direct replacement to the Totas I already use.  Only problem is gel holder, I might have to modify my Tota's holders, maybe weld an umbrella shaft on their mounting arm, but otherwise could work.  Major downer is I'm back to 45min - 1 hr. setups Sad
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« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2011, 10:44:15 AM »
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As with many technologies that may be a better idea for a while, the advancements go to the technologies that have the most money spent on them. The Bayer array using one shot falls into this category. While the H4D50 MS did shoot sharper images than the P65+ in the test posted here, one wonders if the careful application of sharpening might make the difference moot. We have better sharpening tools than ever before, Nik, even high pass in CS5, so that the penalty in productivity that the MS backs bring to the workflow might no longer be worth it.
Also, instead of pixel-peeping, could we see some examples of the difference in offset reproduction, or even high quality inkjet prints? Always, one must ask, can the client see the difference? Is there truly a difference? 
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2011, 11:53:08 AM »
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If you're using Capture One you can use the LCC tool to even out lighting on the artwork. Obviously it's best that you get the lighting as close as reasonable effort/equipment can get you. However, with a digital back's file latitude and the accuracy of the LCC tool you'll find that even a half stop variation will result in almost no noticeable image quality degradation.

1. Light the artwork as well as you can (using polarizers where possible/practical) and high quality lights that have consistency from one pop of the flash to the next (I suggest Broncolor or Profoto - but I'm very biased - see signature)
2. Place a piece of white seamless over the artwork and fill the camera frame with that white. Avoid wrinkles/bowing. A piece of white mattboard or other taunt material also works - just needs to be white and fill the frame.
3. Capture a frame of just the white material
4. In the Lens Correction tab select [LCC > Analyze] and name it something pertinent
5. Capture a frame of the artwork
6. In the Lens Correction tab select [LCC > {name of the LCC you made in step 4}]

If you're shooting a lot of pieces in the same lighting you can set in the Camera Tab [Next Capture Adjustments > Copy from Primary] so that the LCC is applied to incoming captures (it's still a raw file in case you want to adjust/remove the LCC later) as you shoot them.

This also corrects for any lens fall off (though it should be very slight at the standard f/8-f/11 art repro apertures).

This also corrects for any slight variation in color temperature (from uneven power, poor quality strobes, or aging of the glass/bulb).

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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phero66
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« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2011, 12:05:19 PM »
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Well smack me with a brick, it just dawned on me that all I need to make a strobe less circular in output is to toss the reflector & find some barn doors (hopefully with gel attachment but if not then 3rd party).  Why can't it always be this easy!  Grin

Doug, just saw your comment come in while typeing the above - I have used the LCC module on my last job and found it worked great.  There are times (very large artwork, that can't be hung due to a wall issue) that I have to correct falloff manually in PS.  This is where linear falloff helps, since I cannot really shoot the area with a white sheet or otherwise (floor is visable in shoot area).  In an ideal situation I would hang and shoot on the wall, drape white material as you say, keep taunt and slightly defocus the lens, but for the big stuff I can't Sad

Speaking of Bron, how does the Visatek line handle color temperture and flash-to-flash consistency through its 4 stop range?  The Brons and Profotos of course offer a lot more options, but if these lights are just shooting artwork I don't need a whole lot other then consistency, etc.
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