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Author Topic: Barbieri Spectro Swing or Xrite i1iSis ?  (Read 6391 times)
atlproimaging
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« on: January 10, 2011, 12:42:21 PM »
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Hello Folks,
Need some help deciding on which one should I get? Purpose of buying one of these prodoucts is for creating profiles for digital RA4 printers. Products such as Kodak Endura Papers and Fuji Professional Papers.
Thanks in advance for your feed back.
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Iliah
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« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2011, 07:07:52 PM »
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It depends on the profiling target you are going to use and profiling package. Barbieri is pretty limiting with the stock targets, and making custom targets for Barbieri is not quite easy. Recently I needed to make a custom target containing 2511 patches to profile Metallic paper for Noritsu. i1 is much easier in that regards, especially if you create custom targets using ColorPort. In terms of measurement accuracy my Barbieri is better than my i1.
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atlproimaging
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« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2011, 07:24:57 PM »
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Thanks for your reply,
Software would be profile maker 5.0 or higher. Probably wider chart with more patches.
Primary paper media would be Kodak and fuji Luster and album (Thin) paper.
Any feed back will be greatly appreciated!
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Iliah
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« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2011, 07:31:17 PM »
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Based on my experience with minilabs basICColor Print http://www.basiccolor.de/english/Datenblaetter_E/print_E/print_E.htm is an excellent solution, better than PM5, and it works well with ColorPort output. However if you are redy to invest time creating targets for Barbieri it is also a very good solution.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2011, 07:40:26 PM »
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Barbieri is a wonderfully well made (and expensive) but if you plan to use ProfileMaker Pro, or the new i1P software coming, I think you’ll be better off and your life easier with the iSis which is far more fully supported.

The barcode target functionality is super cool and useful as are the custom target generators in PMP and i1P.
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Andrew Rodney
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atlproimaging
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« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2011, 08:40:37 PM »
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Hi,
Last profiles done on my equipment was on Spectro Scan with profile maker 5.0
I would say these profiles are the best I have seen in the last 10 years of digital printing.
Ofcourse it is not feasible to out source all the time. And it is hard to find Spectro Scans.
Andrew, Please help us to find the right equipment and the right software. We work with 100%
wedding and portrait clients.
Iliah, is ColorPort output a standard on these devices?
Thanks for your advice.
www.atlproimaging.com
karim@atlproimaging.com


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Iliah
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« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2011, 09:02:14 PM »
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> is ColorPort output a standard on these devices?

I'm afraid I do not understand the question. ColorPort is a free utility that helps creating, printing and measuring targets with Gretag/X-Rite tools (it does not work with Barbieri tools), as well as maintaining a sort of database for the target references and outputting targets for various instruments. One needs to try it to see if the benefits it suggests over similar MeasureTool functionality are worth using it. ColorPort is capable of outputting a measurement file in PM and Monaco formats which is also convenient at times.

Recently we run a head-to-head competition between PM, Monaco, and basICColor print profiling minilabs (Noritsu 32, 37, Durst), all from the same measurements. basICColor Print won by a good margin by 100% vote especially on wedding dresses.

i1 IMHO is no match to Spectro or iCColor. Barbieri is. Barbieri also exceeds Gretag instruments in resolving far reds.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 09:04:28 PM by Iliah » Logged
Scott Martin
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« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2011, 08:54:27 AM »
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Recently we run a head-to-head competition between PM, Monaco, and basICColor print profiling minilabs (Noritsu 32, 37, Durst), all from the same measurements. basICColor Print won by a good margin by 100% vote especially on wedding dresses.

In all the head-to-head comparisons I've made with labs MP wins hands down. Their perceptual rendering is a true crown jewel and the ability to tweak it is fantastic.  IMO, BasICColor has some serious saturation deficiencies especially in the reds and greens. 

I think you'll find all of this discussion with soon be moot when i1P arrives. My vote would be to go for an iSis/i1P bundle.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2011, 09:34:10 AM »
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I think you'll find all of this discussion with soon be moot when i1P arrives. My vote would be to go for an iSis/i1P bundle.

Agreed. When I did some testing with the two instruments, the differences in the data was tiny so I’d pick one vs. the other based on cost, ease of use, access to software features. That for me would be the iSis due to PMP/i1P/ColorPort custom target usability. Go with either PMP or PROFILER today, you’ll end up with i1P as a free update I’m pretty sure. I’d actually go PMP because you’d have the profile editing module (which can be a pain but is still occasionally useful). The editor in PROFILER is not so hot. IOW, whatever you select today (PMP or PROFILER) will still be usable in the future even though you’ll build profiles in the new i1P software (its better than either). But you might find some legacy module in ProfileMaker Pro (or perhaps PROFILER) useful in the future.
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Andrew Rodney
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2011, 09:58:01 AM »
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Since we're talking about RA4 profiling I'd recommend Monaco Profiler over PMP for it's superior, warmer gray balance (which is important for B&W RA4 prints) it's less pink skin tone rendering and their two step profiling method which is particularly advantageous for fixing the often non linear nature of silver halide machines (especially Noritsu's). The editing isn't great but I actually prefer MP's editor for silver halide editing (when it comes to that).

Anyway, this is all academic isn't it? The end of an era! Good riddance to these ancient apps that we've been married to for so long - for better and for worse.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2011, 10:02:59 AM »
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Anyway, this is all academic isn't it? The end of an era! Good riddance to these ancient apps that we've been married to for so long - for better and for worse.

Maybe. That’s why although you may prefer PROFILERs profiles today, and I think we both agree, we’d use i1P, IF someone today buys either product, my understanding is, they can still use them. This puts people today in a unique position they may not have in a year. The ability to buy a legacy product, use it AND get i1P! For example, no ICC camera profiling in i1P (DNG profiles yes). Frankly I don’t care, I doubt I’ll ever build an ICC camera profile. But someone else may and might need that legacy product (unless X-Rite is going to allow i1P users to download and use these legacy products, I don’t know if that will be the case). As I implied, profile editing might be useful to some. Now maybe X-Rite will let all i1P users download and use the legacy products along with i1P, I’m not sure how that is being handled.
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Andrew Rodney
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Iliah
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« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2011, 10:06:25 AM »
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> IMO, BasICColor has some serious saturation deficiencies especially in the reds and greens. 

It depends on how you prepare the custom target.

> I think you'll find all of this discussion with soon be moot when i1P arrives.

Absolutely not. Profiling is not plug and play process with any profiler and any instrument.
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2011, 10:13:17 AM »
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> IMO, BasICColor has some serious saturation deficiencies especially in the reds and greens. 
It depends on how you prepare the custom target.

I'll disagree with you on that but you're welcome to elaborate.

> I think you'll find all of this discussion with soon be moot when i1P arrives.
Absolutely not. Profiling is not plug and play process with any profiler and any instrument.

?What? Do you mean to say that there isn't a universal profiling solution that's compatible with all devices? That would be totally different than the point being made above. IMO, I think the quality, ease of use and price point will make the i1P bundle the obvious choice, especially for RA4 profiling.
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Iliah
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« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2011, 10:17:03 AM »
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> non linear nature of silver halide machines (especially Noritsu's).

This is the set of calibration curves for Noritsu generated with printcal utility on a Noritsu with calibration switched off
http://pics.livejournal.com/sail2ithaki/pic/0003b790

This is the set of calibration curves for Noritsu generated from the same target using the same printcal, but now the internal calibration of Noritsu is switched on
http://pics.livejournal.com/sail2ithaki/pic/0003cx6y

printcal utility
http://www.argyllcms.com/doc/printcal.html

In both cases printcal was called with -v -i -p -a parameters.
The target used
http://pics.livejournal.com/sail2ithaki/pic/00039ctt
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Iliah
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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2011, 10:24:54 AM »
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> I'll disagree with you on that but you're welcome to elaborate.

I do not see how I can elaborate. Are you prepared to work on optimizing the profiling target? Or you want to send me the measurements taken from my targets to profile and compare resulting profiles? But in case you are satisfied with your current results, what's the point?

> Do you mean to say that there isn't a universal profiling solution that's compatible with all devices?

Exactly, that is a part of what I'm saying.

> I think the quality, ease of use and price point will make the i1P bundle the obvious choice

Quality for the money and labour with i1P is very good. Quality with free Argyll is even better. It all depends on what are the priorities, and what the client wants.
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2011, 10:39:03 AM »
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> non linear nature of silver halide machines (especially Noritsu's).

...and if you print a linear grayscale and measure it, the curves you'll see will paint a different picture, that directly relates to the quality of B&W prints. MP and i1P deal with that better than PMP, IMO.

I do not see how I can elaborate.

Any elaboration that would help us understand your point would be helpful. Your talking to an experienced pro and a constant for Noritsu, among many other companies in the industry. You can click on my profile, or the link in my signature to find out more about me - I wish I could say the same about you. Why don't you disclose who you are? Would love to know more about you and that might help the conversation.

Are you prepared to work on optimizing the profiling target?

Oh god yes, I've done quite a bit of this actually.

Or you want to send me the measurements taken from my targets to profile and compare resulting profiles? But in case you are satisfied with your current results, what's the point?

Just help me understand your point about the preparation of the target effecting the perceptual saturation problems in BasICColor.

> Do you mean to say that there isn't a universal profiling solution that's compatible with all devices?
Exactly, that is a part of what I'm saying.

Well that's different, and we gotta be careful about what we say but just about any CGATS files will go into i1P for profiling.

>  It all depends on what are the priorities, and what the client wants.

Yes. I've been working with lab oriented end users like the original poster for 20+ years now and can tell you the percentage of them that will want to mess with Argyll will be extremely small! Yes, it's neat stuff for geeks...
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Iliah
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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2011, 10:44:48 AM »
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> Any elaboration

The only elaboration I trust as useful is demonstration.

> tell you the percentage of them that will want to mess with Argyll will be extremely small! Yes, it's neat stuff for geeks...

It is neat stuff for those who want quality.
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atlproimaging
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« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2011, 12:09:06 PM »
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Thank you guys for your feed backs.
We do not use any mini labs such as Noritsu and frontiers.
We have a Chromira 5X Lab and this is a LED printer and we use a Barbieri Densy 460 to linear grayscale
At this point we need to profile RA4 media only for our professional clients. Based on your replies we are going towards Monaco Profiler which will be upgraded any ways with the i1professional.
Should I look for the used Spectro Scan? or just buy the Xrite i1iSis ,i1iO, i1Pro Device.
Any feed backs will be greatly appreciated.
www.atlproimaging.com
karim@atlproimaging.com


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digitaldog
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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2011, 01:35:54 PM »
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Are you prepared to work on optimizing the profiling target?

Its quite useful to be able to do so, so yes.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2011, 01:38:19 PM »
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Should I look for the used Spectro Scan? or just buy the Xrite i1iSis ,i1iO, i1Pro Device.

Go iSis. Again, the bar code functionally is quite useful, especially if you intend to do more than profile but instead trending! You can build a custom target for this task (colors within color space of the device, colors that are problematic) and an operator can read this easily thanks to the auto barcode. Better still, setup a track in Maxwell (from Chromix). ColorShuttle and Maxwell with an iSis, awesome process control suite.
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Andrew Rodney
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