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Author Topic: Creative Dodging and Burning in Photoshop CS5  (Read 21997 times)
john beardsworth
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« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2011, 04:57:32 AM »
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That's really the same outmoded technique mentioned earlier in this thread, worth sticking with if you don't like new tricks but not if you're learning dodging and burning for the first time.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 04:59:26 AM by johnbeardy » Logged

MichaelWorley
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« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2011, 03:12:36 PM »
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That's really the same outmoded technique mentioned earlier in this thread, worth sticking with if you don't like new tricks but not if you're learning dodging and burning for the first time.

JPC will be tickled to hear that his methods are outmoded.

Actually, alt-clicking on the "New Layer" icon and changing its mode to Overlay does not add a pixel bearing layer, if  that's what you were getting at. Adjustment layers can alter colors inconsistently, in case that's what you were advocating. But I'm shooting in the dark here since you didn't appear to be actually advocating anything.

New layers can also be created in Hue Mode and in Saturation Mode, allowing all three elements of color [luminosity, hue, and saturation] to be selectively enhanced or reduced.

Since lighter colors come forward, as do saturated and warm colors, and their opposites recede, a great deal of form, shape, contour and three-dimensionality can be added to images with layers in these three modes when painted on in the right places with the proper colored brushes. But only if these are aspects you want to bring to your images.
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Schewe
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« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2011, 03:50:25 PM »
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JPC will be tickled to hear that his methods are outmoded.

Actually, I don't think they are outdated...using a 50% gray filled layer with an overlay blend mode offers a degree of finesse that two adjustment layers set to screen and multiply don't offer. Since you are stuck with targeting two separate layer masks when using the adjustment layer blend mode, you can't blend between a screen and multiply in one painted stroke. You have to paint in one layer mask then bounce to the other layer mask.

The advantage of the 50% gray layer is that you can blend back and forth in a single layer mask. Paint some white to lighten, paint some black to darken and paint some 50% gray to blend.

Yes, it does add a bit more in terms of file size...but not a lot more. Three channels for the RGB 50% gray vs. the weightless adjustment layers plus two layer masks. So the 50% gray layer is one more channel–not a problem for me.

It's really the interactive function of the 50% gray set to overlay that makes me prefer this method over the adjustment layer approach. And for even more flexibility to can add a layer mask to further adjust the results.
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ippolitois
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« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2011, 05:18:44 PM »
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And for even more flexibility to can add a layer mask to further adjust the results.

Hi Jeff,

Can you please elaborate on this further? Sounds like another tool that I've never heard about.

Thanks in advance.

Paul
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Schewe
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« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2011, 05:31:57 PM »
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Can you please elaborate on this further?

It was mentioned up-thread in this post.

With the gray layer set to overlay, nothing happens in the 50% gray until you alter the gray lighter or darker. Overlay is a procedural blend of lightening (screening) above middle gray and darkening (multiplying) below middle gray. So painting white into the gray lightens and painting black darkens. You can work the adjustments back and forth or remove them when you paint in with a 50% gray. Pretty powerful so you'll usually be painting with white or black with a brush opacity that is pretty low-I usually use 5-10% and build up the adjustments gently...you can also adjust the overall gray layer opacity to modify the strength or use a layer mask yo further modify.

Note, using this overlay blend with lighter and darker areas will also tend to punch color saturation so you'll also often want to put another layer above the 50% gray layer set to saturation blend mode and painting with a totally desaturated color (like black or white) to reduce saturation and a totally saturated color to increase it...
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john beardsworth
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« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2011, 02:49:42 AM »
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Actually, alt-clicking on the "New Layer" icon and changing its mode to Overlay does not add a pixel bearing layer, if  that's what you were getting at.
Read again - that wasn't remotely what I said. That part of the thread was about not being able to see an adjustment layer's mask, and I was pointing out that you simply alt click it.
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MichaelWorley
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« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2011, 09:48:06 AM »
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Read again - that wasn't remotely what I said. That part of the thread was about not being able to see an adjustment layer's mask, and I was pointing out that you simply alt click it.

You're right. I said that. I described how to quickly open a new layer, whose mode you then set and give a name to. I was trying to guess what you were saying about layers, and why the method I described for dodging and burning was outmoded in your opinion. My guess may have been wrong.

And, in case you were advocating adjustment layers in other modes for dodging and burning, I said "[a]djustment layers can alter colors inconsistently, in case that's what you were advocating." Since I wasn't getting your drift, this guess may been wrong as well.

If you were only calling my method outmoded and you weren't suggesting any alternatives, then please forget everything I said. My speculation has only led to confusion.

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rsmith
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« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2011, 07:20:26 PM »
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no need for the gray fill as the 50% gray fill has the same effect as transparency in the overlay layer
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RFPhotography
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« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2011, 10:55:12 AM »
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Isn't always fun when someone comes up with what they think is a spiffy new & improved way of doing something and immediately starts referring to tried and true methods as 'outmoded'?  As if there's only one way of doing something and, of course, it has to be their way.  

The actual dodge/burn tools are much improved in CS5 in terms of the impact they have on the image.  The downside remains the lack of flexibility and lack of ability to undo adjustments.  The Dodge/Burn Layer approach (as opposed to the Adjustment Layer method) gives a great deal more flexibility but is difficult to undo after the fact.  

While it may not be the best method (best being subjective but it works well for me) the Brightness Adjustment Brush in Lightroom is very flexible and completely undoable or editable in the future.  Same tool exists in ACR but adjusting the brush is a bit less simple.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 11:39:14 AM by BobFisher » Logged
john beardsworth
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« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2011, 11:12:12 AM »
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Equally isn't it sad when people think they've read something that wasn't written?
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Samotano
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« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2011, 12:59:22 PM »
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As for dodging and burning, I prefer the John Paul Caponigro technique. Admittedly, it can be tedious, especially with a color image.

He creates a new layer, changes it to Overlay mode, and paints on it with black to darken and white to lighten. The tedious part is that you paint at 100% opacity, and use Cmd/Ctrl-Shift-F to bring up the fade slider. [Have to do it after ever stroke.] Fade what you've painted back to the effect you want. He uses this to good effect to create three dimensionality. Paint the outside edge of a rounded form to darken it. Right next to that stroke, paint another, but fade it more than the first one. Do the same on the other side.

That's the technique used on the second of the two images linked below. The first is not processed, just downsized. The other has had a lot of dodging and burning, and the corners were darkened in various places with a curves layer. Silver Efex was applied to both in natural mode without adjustments.

http://www.pbase.com/mike_worley/cypress

Interesting!  Thanks for sharing.  Do you know of any resource that explains this technique in more details?  I could not find anything on Caponigro's website.
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MichaelWorley
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« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2011, 08:26:26 PM »
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Interesting!  Thanks for sharing.  Do you know of any resource that explains this technique in more details?  I could not find anything on Caponigro's website.

Two resources: (1) the DVD on JPC's site called "Drawing with Light - 21st Century Dodging and Burning," or (2) join Kelbytraining and watch the same DVD along with numerous other lessons by other photographers on other topics.

It's better to see the technique performed by someone who knows what they're doing, technically and artistically, and the first 41 minutes of the DVD deal with this method.

The JPC DVD costs $70. Kelbytraining is a bit more, but it includes that JPC DVD and several others by him, as well as several lessons each by a couple dozen other photographers. Worth the money in my opinion. Heck, watching an hour of Jay Maisel was worth the price of admission. I've watched lessons on things I didn't think I was interested in. Still not interested, actually, but learned some things I didn't know and wouldn't have thought to look into.

Interesting that JPC calls his technique "21st Century Dodging and Burning" when it's been derided by some here as "outmoded."  Many ways to do things, and some methods are better suited to some needs or techniques than others.

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Lightbox
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« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2011, 03:13:12 AM »
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Well I'm glad I don't use this "21st century" technique, I really don't see any advantage in painting at 100% opacity and using the fade command for every brush stroke. Hell, that would add hours of tedious menu selecting and most of all would interrupt the creative process of using a brush. Below is an image I just finished, which shows the amount of brush work and I don't care to count the amount of individual brush strokes here, let alone consider what it would be like to use Edit>Fade on each stroke. What you see is a combination of dodging and burning split throughout 4 layers, and their masks combined so you can see the total amount of brush work -



.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2011, 03:27:42 AM by Lightbox » Logged

elliot_n
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« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2011, 06:06:38 AM »
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It's better to see the technique performed by someone who knows what they're doing, technically and artistically, and the first 41 minutes of the DVD deal with this method.


Those 41 minutes can be watched for free at the Kelby Training website:

http://www.kelbytraining.com/player/index.html#tab\instructors/instructor\john-p-caponigro/course\80/lesson\853

I don't find his demonstration very persuasive. He talks about the side-effects of using blend layers for dodging and burning. By using an Overlay layer, he has to deal with an unwanted boost in saturation. I'd rather avoid this by painting on adjustment layers that I've set up to create the effect I want.

So for dodge/burn I have various Curves adjustment layers (set to Luminosity blend mode ) - for example, a curve that darkens shadows, another that knocks down highlights, another that boosts midtone contrast. Start by filling the mask with black, then paint with white to create the effect, and black to reverse it. I do use his 'fade' technique (i.e. overdo it, then reign it in), but prefer to adjust the percentage with keyboard (shift + cursor keys) rather than the slider, as this allows me to concentrate better on the image.

Actually for most images I don't bother with this degree of fine detail, and just use roughly drawn selections, heavily feathered, and corrected with adjustment layers.


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MichaelWorley
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« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2011, 12:01:09 PM »
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Those 41 minutes can be watched for free at the Kelby Training website:

http://www.kelbytraining.com/player/index.html#tab\instructors/instructor\john-p-caponigro/course\80/lesson\853

I don't find his demonstration very persuasive. He talks about the side-effects of using blend layers for dodging and burning. By using an Overlay layer, he has to deal with an unwanted boost in saturation. I'd rather avoid this by painting on adjustment layers that I've set up to create the effect I want.

So for dodge/burn I have various Curves adjustment layers (set to Luminosity blend mode ) - for example, a curve that darkens shadows, another that knocks down highlights, another that boosts midtone contrast. Start by filling the mask with black, then paint with white to create the effect, and black to reverse it. I do use his 'fade' technique (i.e. overdo it, then reign it in), but prefer to adjust the percentage with keyboard (shift + cursor keys) rather than the slider, as this allows me to concentrate better on the image.

Actually for most images I don't bother with this degree of fine detail, and just use roughly drawn selections, heavily feathered, and corrected with adjustment layers.


Free?? I had to pay.

I
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MichaelWorley
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« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2011, 12:10:10 PM »
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Well I'm glad I don't use this "21st century" technique . . . .

And I'm glad I'm not here to evangelize. There's different techniques for different folks to achieve different effects. We get to choose the ones that make us happy.
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Lightbox
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« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2011, 05:27:12 PM »
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There's different techniques for different folks to achieve different effects.

There sure is, as I suggested in my first post in this thread, I'm just providing clear examples for the techniques that I employ and explaining why other techniques will not work when you get to this level of D&B. There's a good and proven reason I use Pocket Wizards too, industry standard.
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elliot_n
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« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2011, 09:39:09 PM »
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There sure is, as I suggested in my first post in this thread, I'm just providing clear examples for the techniques that I employ and explaining why other techniques will not work when you get to this level of D&B. There's a good and proven reason I use Pocket Wizards too, industry standard.

Both techniques (Lightbox's and JPC's) are similar in that they use painting in screen and multiply blend modes to lighten and darken.

I've tried Lightbox's action (thanks for posting), but I find it crude compared to my more usual technique of painting on masked curves adjustment layers. With curves you can much better target which tonalities get adjusted. And by setting the curves to luminosity blend, saturation shifts are avoided.

The Solar curve concept is new to me - seems like a good way to track down dust spots.

(I prefer Skyports to Pocket Wizards.)
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Sheldon N
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« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2011, 10:56:43 PM »
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Both techniques (Lightbox's and JPC's) are similar in that they use painting in screen and multiply blend modes to lighten and darken.

I've tried Lightbox's action (thanks for posting), but I find it crude compared to my more usual technique of painting on masked curves adjustment layers. With curves you can much better target which tonalities get adjusted. And by setting the curves to luminosity blend, saturation shifts are avoided.

The Solar curve concept is new to me - seems like a good way to track down dust spots.

(I prefer Skyports to Pocket Wizards.)

If you're going down this rabbit trail of complex dodging/burning, here's another option. Use curves adjustment layer with a luminosity mask, then place that layer into a layer group and add a mask to the layer group.

Luminosity masks use the image itself to select tonal ranges within that image, ie. masking so that only the highlights are affected or only the shadows are affected. Then you use the curves adjustment layer to make your desired adjustment, ie opening shadows and adding contrast at the same time, or pulling back highlights without affecting midtones.

The luminosity mask allows the curve to only affect that certain specified range of tones, but it still affects the entire image area. So, after you've made your global adjustments you create a new layer group, drop your curves adjustment layer into that group, add a mask to the layer group, then invert the mask. You can then use a brush to paint in the luminosity masked curves adjustment only into those areas of the photo that you want.  Sounds complicated, but it's not that hard in practice and gives an amazing amount of control.

If you want to learn more about luminosity masks, google Tony Kuyper and you can read up on how to create an action to make them. Or drop me an email and I can send an action I created.
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Kirk Gittings
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« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2011, 11:48:34 PM »
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f you want to learn more about luminosity masks, google Tony Kuyper and you can read up on how to create an action to make them. Or drop me an email and I can send an action I created.

Or you can pay him a few bucks and download his. IMO well worth every penny. TK Luminosity Masks
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Kirk

Kirk Gittings
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