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Author Topic: pc or mac  (Read 16238 times)
Farmer
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« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2011, 06:01:02 PM »
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I always say use whichever you like, but don't believe for one moment that either is "better" or "worse" than the other.  They're using the same hardware and both OS offer excellent results and stability.

I use both at work, I choose to use PC at home.  If I had to use OS X I'd be fine.  It's 100% down to personal preference - anything else is pure perception and generally unfounded, in either direction.
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Christopher
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« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2011, 03:49:50 AM »
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I would challenge the statement that APPLE is more expensive, a previous poster stated he paid 6,500 for a High end PC system and that the Apple equivilent was 12,000.  Sry - no way they were the same spec .

I said, when you built it yourself you can save that much money, if you buy a Dell, or similar the price difference won't be big!!!

Just two very fast samples:

- the price difference between two intel xeon 2,66ghz and 2,9ghz is around 800EURs, apple charges
- RAM, 3x8GB cost around 400-700eur that twice is 48GB for way less than 2500EURs. Apple wants for the upgrade from 6GB to 32GB 3550Eur, that's a lot more and less ram

I could go on and on, buy getting out my invoices, but I think it is enough. In the end we use what we like best. I mean certainly there are ways to get a mac cheaper, buy it only with minimum stuff and than upgrade it. For me its more fun to build a windows workstation from scratch. If in did not care about money, I would just drop the money on a Mac or expensive windows workstation, but I grew up differently and I have to admit is is much more fun, to save a little on a computer and spend it on a lens Wink

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Gemmtech
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« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2011, 08:34:14 AM »
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Pascal and Bill thanks for proving my point!!!  Mac users are so passionate about their choice of using a MAC whereas we freethinkers don't get so attached to our PCs or MACs (I own both).  Also, it seems some are still talking about QD-DOS (MS-DOS) and whether or not Bill Gates copied, stole or purchased............. I'm sure we've all read the many stories and none of us know the actual truth, but who cares?  I'm talking about the differences between Macs and PCs since 2006.  Some here talk about how awful Windows 95 was and the Mac was so much better.  I'm honest, I never really used a MAC until 2006 so if you tell me how much better a MAC was than a PC back 15-16 years ago, I'll just take your word for it.  There's no doubt I was never able to use a MAC in the past because Auto-Cad and all other CAD based programs are not ported to the MAC, but once they went to Intel based machines we could dual boot, why bother?  Bill I'm sorry you didn't read my posts a little more thoroughly, as "they" say, the proof is in the pudding.  After building thousands of machines since 1998 (some of those were for people over the age of 70 who never used a computer before) I'm convinced that a MAC is not anymore user friendly than a PC and in my experience it's been the other way around.  I keep myself out of the sample base because my MAC experience comes too many years after using a PC and I know the Windows OS inside in out.  However, IMHO the two OS are close enough as to be a non-issue.  I'm sure Mac users have gotten accustomed to having to stretch their screens manually to have a full screen window and having to highlight the photos and hitting the space bar in order to preview their photos in a folder and all the other little idiosyncrasies of the MAC OS.  I also believe most don't know the difference between a hardware and a software issue.  If I have a 15 year old pc still running Windows 95 with nary an issue and somebody else has a pc that crashes everyday, is it software or hardware?  I believe most people believe that computers are commodities and look at price more than quality.  Quality of components is critical to having a stable machine and you would be naive to believe Apple is using components that are of a higher quality than your average PC, I've taken enough of them apart and yes I have lost some screws and found out it will cost me $50.00 for a set of screws from Apple -:(  User friendly?  I custom assemble all of my machines and some of them even include a $2000.00 custom paint job on the case (that's an emotional decision) and I can tell you that Apple does not offer any of the components I use as an option.  If you are assembling a MAC workstation, then as you stated you are buying a MAC Pro and then upgrading the video card?  Is that a good value for your customer?  If you would buy the best quality components and assemble your own workstation as I do you would find out it is SUBSTANTIALLY less expensive to do so than to buy a MAC.  And I believe (until I'm shown differently) that a PC can do everything a MAC can do but a MAC can't do everything that a PC can do in it's native OS state!  

There's no doubt people also buy based upon past experience and if you have been using MACs for 5-10-15-20 years and have a good user experience I can understand buying another, but that's truly an emotional decision.  It's tough getting old, we get set in our ways and remember when!  I bought my first MAC in 2006 and have purchased many and worked on many since, structurally they are well built, I'm am typing this on a MBP 15" using Windows Vista because I'm having network issues with the MAC OS, can't get it too connect to the internet.  I have taken every type of MAC apart and they use all the "normal" PC components, they just charge a lot more for them.  Price out Apple ram, hard drive upgrades and you will get the point.  

Pascal, that pro/con list is not very accurate.  Having never used Target Mode, I'll just take your word, but external boot, Firewire, DP, component quality, drivers and unibody.  There is not one single MAC Pro in this list, you can boot from a PC using external device, PCs do have Firewire (plus USB3) and DP (PLUS HDMI), you can buy or assemble a PC with substantially better component quality and there are a plethora of high quality cases out there that one can use to assemble their PCs, you don't have case options with MACs.  Macs don't even support Blu-Ray, on long flights I have to use Windows with my BluRay discs.

Bill, you are correct in saying that there are times when one has a large investment in one or the other, I can understand that logic, my wife and best friend use software that costs in excessive of $250,000.00 and $100,000.00 respectively and it would be very expensive to switch to MACs, plus the fact that the software wont work on a MAC makes it no brainer!!  However if you are just discussing the cheap software such as Photoshop, Lightroom, then you will save by having a PC built for you, because the hardware will cost you substantially less.  

As far as the nonsense that MACs are more stable and don't crash?  BULLLLLLLL Shidinki, they crash, lock up, hard lock, etc.  I know this on a personal level.  As a matter of fact I was shocked the first time my MAC crashed (first day I owned it) because I thought MACS didn't crash.  I do like the colorful spinning wheel better than the hourglass  Grin

MAC users, for now you do win the virus argument, there's no doubt that since MACs are niche products and most people use a PC, the evil in the world seem to attack the largest user base, there's more bravado and chest thumping if you can take down 100 million computers rather than 10.

User friendly?  For me it's about the entire experience, including upgrading and I can tell you that MBP, IMAC, Mac Mini are NOT very user friendly, Mac Pros are easy enough to upgrade, but still lagging very far behind what's available in the PC world.  I want to take an extra battery for my MBP 15", My IPhone and my IPod, but I can't, Apple has decided I shouldn't have that right, so when the battery dies, I'm SOL, is that really a good user experience?  

I'm sure you MAC afficionados will continue to believe the MAC is the cat's meow, but if you ever want a great machine, something truly original that is 100% stable, upgradeable, and very aesthetically pleasing (Yes, we can take care of the emotional needs as well) and costs less than a MAC? give me a ring.  Don't be closed minded, I wasn't, that's why I bought so many MACs and Apple products, I regret the IMac purchases, not very user friendly and too many break downs.  Don't get old (mentally speaking) and set in your ways, if Windows 95 didn't do it for you, try Windows 7,  there's a few years between them!   Wink

« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 08:40:51 AM by Gemmtech » Logged
Gemmtech
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« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2011, 09:06:46 AM »
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"I would challenge the statement that APPLE is more expensive, a previous poster stated he paid 6,500 for a High end PC system and that the Apple equivilent was 12,000.  Sry - no way they were the same spec .

If you were to spec out the internals EXACTLY same there would be very little price difference.  

So many people have a seething hatred for Mr. Job's and Apple they just wont listen to reason, and believe any anti-mac crap that comes along.  Try both ...I mean really try - then make a decision ...tat the only way to go"

You truly don't know what you are talking about, there is a HUGE price difference and the more you add to the MAC the greater the discrepancy in price.  Seething hatred?  Actually, I admire Steve Jobs and The Woz, two of my favorites from that era.  I believe Steve Jobs made a very critical mistake with Apple Version 1 and that Apple wouldn't be here today if MS and others didn't bail them out.  I also believe that Steve Jobs might be making the same mistake again, but only time will tell, I've done very well with Apple stock over the past 10+ years, so I don't hate Steve Jobs.  But remember, in the mid nineties the stock tanked ($15-$18) and then around 2000 it was about $7 per share, so something was amiss!  My guess is their products just weren't as great as some people believed.  Yes, I bought stock in a company whose products I didn't buy!

"Well your blathering comes across as pretty insulting. Mac users buy based on emotional need (groundless assertion), Mac users don't make rational purchasing decisions (another groundless assertion), and so on."

There was no blathering or groundless assertions, I simply stated a fact, MAC computers cost more than a comparably equipped PC and that a PC can do everything a MAC can do, but a MAC (MAC OS) can't do everything a PC can do at least not in a native state. One such example are CAD programs, the MAC OS can't run CAD programs, need the proof?  Or how about Ansys?  

http://resources.autodesk.com/autocad/White_Papers

http://www.softplan.com/Will-Softplan-Run-On-a-Macintosh.html

http://www.ansys.com/services/platform/platform-support-13.0-standalone.asp  

And there isn't anything comparable to Auto-Cad.  Obviously most companies write software for Windows, but they also port to Linux, Unix etc. but no MAC.  I doubt you will find a $100,000.00 engineering software package ported to a MAC?  Or a $250,000.00 accounting software package?  If they exist, please educate me, I'm curious?  I'll agree that these are extreme examples, but the point is, what can you do on a MAC that a PC user can't?  On a more simple note, a MAC can't use a USB3 device and doesn't support BluRay.  What is supported by a MAC that isn't by a PC or were there is no PC equivalent?  

If you want a list of components priced out with labor included I'll do that as well.

I never said MAC users don't make rational purchasing decisions, I said that today in 2011, there's no rational reason to buy a MAC.  Again, this shouldn't be insulting to anybody.  When somebody says there's no rational reason to buy a Mercedes SL65 AMG, I agree, I'd say there's a rational reason to buy a Mercedes GL450, even though it's not very good looking, it's the safest SUV made, holds 7, is extremely comfortable and is utilitarian.  I agree that IMacs and MBP are very good looking and are structurally well built, but they are very poorly designed from a user friendly perspective.  Why spend more for less?  A car is a slightly different purchase (many reasons I wont go into here) but a computer is suppose to get you from Point A to Point B?  Who cares how it looks, right?  WRONG!!!  Many people care about how their computers look, yours truly included.   Grin  We all buy based upon emotions everyday.  I know a lot of people buy their IPods, IPhones and IMacs because of the way they look.  I can get you a much better monitor than any Apple monitor and for less money.  You can continue to defend your MAC purchases but you have yet to give a valid rational reason of why in 2011 you would buy a MAC today?  It's foolish to say a MAC is more stable, that's just simply not close to being true.  It's nonsense to say Apple uses higher quality components and it's simply not true that Apples are more user friendly, they might be if you have been using them for 15 years and barely use a PC, but giving both to computer "virgins" tells the real story.  I think it's rather simple, what do you want to use your computer for?  If you could buy a PC for $500.00 less and do the same thing you are doing on a MAC would you buy a PC?  




   
« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 09:43:41 AM by Gemmtech » Logged
Gemmtech
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« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2011, 09:54:21 AM »
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... I can always tell if a person purchased an item based upon an emotional need or a rational analytical thought process.


"Wow! Clever you. And how do you manage this amazing parlour trick?"

If you believe it's a "Parlour Trick" then I'd suggest you don't understand the human thought process.  Do you really believe marketing firms are using "Parlour Tricks" when they come up with an ad campaign or do you believe they know how to make a person buy something?  Do you believe Apple or any company is designing their products without a clue of how to tap into people's emotions?  Cereal, Cars, Computers, etc. are ALL marketed to make you buy them, regardless of how well they taste, look, smell or work.  The pet rock was NOT a rational purchase.  


For those of you who are basing their experience with PCs strictly using Dell or some of the other big name PCs, that's part of your problem, Dell is the worst and I could understand you jumping off the Burj Dubai after using a Dell  Grin

OK, I'm going to back up here for a moment, Bill mentioned software investment and that is a valid point and since I've only been using MACs for about 6 years I don't know all the programs that run exclusively on MACs.  What are they?  Do you upgrade your software?  Is it always free to upgrade?  How much money do you have in MAC specific software?  Would the hardware savings pay for it if you were to switch to PC?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 10:20:51 AM by Gemmtech » Logged
Chairman Bill
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« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2011, 11:24:06 AM »
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Pascal and Bill thanks for proving my point!!!  

Er, the point I took issue with was the nonsense statement that all Mac purchases are emotional decisions. I haven't proved your point at all.

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Pascalf
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« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2011, 02:01:30 PM »
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I'll try and keep this short, in this series of posts.

I'll re-iterate: I have worked with both Windows and OSX, and BOTH have their advantages.  My opinion is that there are no absolutes for PROFESSIONAL level hardware: some tools/ options are exclusive, though engineering involves trade-offs.

"Mac users are so passionate about their choice of using a MAC whereas we freethinkers don't get so attached to our PCs or MACs (I own both)"
- I agree: people who do not DEPEND in their computers [have computers as a hobby or interest] for their income have differing priorities compared to people who require very stable computers working at top speed every job, every day, where failures or instability are best avoided, lest we suffer the loss of (a) the job, (b) the client, (c) the season/ opportunity.  Usually (a), (b), (c) together.
This balance also seems reflected in 35mm vs. medium format discussions: horses for courses.
You get to be a freethinker when a job does NOT get affected by the use of 'experimental' or 'home-brew' machines.
When a job/ show/ session REQUIRES stability, predictability, and reliability [in output], I've gone with battle-tested.
- If being "passionate" is based on real, well paying assignments/ jobs/ tasks [like all professionals] and the reputation afforded by my computing [and other business] choices, I'm 'passionate'.
I am quite 'passionate', for my reputation is borne from what other think of my work, and I got to travel the [North American] continent being the tech who ran the visuals on hundreds of events.

Your Mileage May Vary [YMMV]


"After building thousands of machines since 1998 (some of those were for people over the age of 70 who never used a computer before) I'm convinced that a MAC is not anymore user friendly than a PC and in my experience it's been the other way around."
- Your Mileage Varies from mine.

"However, IMHO the two OS are close enough as to be a non-issue."
- No.  We don't agree on that point.

"I believe most people believe that computers are commodities and look at price more than quality."
- In this forum, the original poster will use the computer for professional tasks.  My views on the balance of quality/ affordability/ speed have been stated.

"If you are assembling a MAC workstation, then as you stated you are buying a MAC Pro and then upgrading the video card?  Is that a good value for your customer?"
- custom [video] cards are an addition to the stock card.  The second video card runs its' own display.

"And I believe (until I'm shown differently) that a PC can do everything a MAC can do but a MAC can't do everything that a PC can do in it's native OS state!  "
- How is this shown to you satisfaction?
- This dilemma/ issue is also reflected in several 35mm vs. medium format discussions.


"There's no doubt people also buy based upon past experience and if you have been using MACs for 5-10-15-20 years and have a good user experience I can understand buying another, but that's truly an emotional decision."
- does not compute

"I have taken every type of MAC apart and they use all the "normal" PC components, they just charge a lot more for them."
- We don't completely agree on that point.

"Pascal, that pro/con list is not very accurate.  Having never used Target Mode, I'll just take your word, but external boot, Firewire, DP, component quality, drivers and unibody.  There is not one single MAC Pro in this list, you can boot from a PC using external device, PCs do have Firewire (plus USB3) and DP (PLUS HDMI), you can buy or assemble a PC with substantially better component quality and there are a plethora of high quality cases out there that one can use to assemble their PCs, you don't have case options with MACs.  Macs don't even support Blu-Ray, on long flights I have to use Windows with my BluRay discs."
- cherry-picking: you are not comparing FACTORY assembled computers to CUSTOM BUILT machines, are you?
- the 'pros' items listed apply to ALL Apple machines, save for unibody, which applies to MOST Apple portables.
- I have already installed Blu-ray drives in client MacPros, and they work fine, with no need for a driver.  They were installed in the second bay, and the OS uses a modifier key [which I think is Control] for the eject key.  Standard form factor, no driver to install: this is with the Lucky-Goldstar drive [LG BH10].

"User friendly?  For me it's about the entire experience, including upgrading and I can tell you that MBP, IMAC, Mac Mini are NOT very user friendly, Mac Pros are easy enough to upgrade, but still lagging very far behind what's available in the PC world."
- The design choices one company makes [Apple] versus the design choices computer PARTS suppliers can make.  Again, comparing CUSTOM BUILT machines vs STOCK machines is a not valid balance.
- How much customization did you actually perform on Apple machines? You bought machines that were DESIGNED to be limited in upgrades, and you compare to you custom assemblies.
- Don't be closed minded.  Make comparisons for similar items.

"On a more simple note, a MAC can't use a USB3 device and doesn't support BluRay."
- I'll let my client know he has an machine that does not exist.*


"What is supported by a MAC that isn't by a PC or were there is no PC equivalent? "
- What is supported on ANY, CUSTOMIZED Apple machine that is not supported by ANY, CUSTOMIZED machine running Windows?  That seems to be your real question.  Or it would be if you were looking for a more balanced comparison.

I'll compare the way you compare: particular hardware abilities.
[All of the universe vs. Apple]
- Target mode?
- network boot [since OS9]?


"One such example are CAD programs, the MAC OS can't run CAD programs, need the proof?"
I'll compare the way you compare: 'exclusive' software:
- iLife?
- Aperture?
- Final Cut Pro?
- iWork?
- Logic?
- Alias Sketch? [Oops, that finally was migrated to Windows]
- Marionette? [Oops, that has yet to be available outside of Pixar]
- ElectricImage? [Oops, that finally was ported to Windows]
- RenderMan? [Oops, that finally was ported to Windows]
- AVID [Oops, that finally was ported to Windows]

The last few items are there to re-iterate that companies make choices.  Some projects start out on an exclusive platform and then migrate to support other operating systems.  Like SoftImage 3D.

"I doubt you will find a $100,000.00 engineering software package ported to a MAC?  Or a $250,000.00 accounting software package?"
- Are these programs a good value?  I'm pretty sure OSX and Linux can do math operations.
- Buying expensive software is an emotional decision.*

"And there isn't anything comparable to Auto-Cad."
- Buying AutoCAD is to fulfill a purely emotional need*.  There are much more affordable software packages that can do whatever AutoCAD can do.
- There is nothing AutoCAD can do that cannot be done on any other software packages.
[- I went there.]


My main point in this post:  many of my client choose OS X [and related hardware] because of STABILITY. And dependability.  And perceived ease of use.
All of these points are SUBJECTIVE, and are usually based on experience, personal or otherwise.

I have worked at SoftImage, when they were migrating from SGI [IRIX] to Windows NT [Dell].  I saw the same kind of push and pull from the users well versed in the use of IRIX vs. the users well versed in the use of Windows [NT].  They were both RIGHT.

Horses for courses.

If your cost-benefit analysis does NOT include OBJECTIVE or SUBJECTIVE stability comparisons, don't bother.  Most OS X users PAY MORE for the INCREASED stability, reliablity, and SERVICE that Apple is perceived to provide.

Perception is important.  Dismissing the perception of others without convincing THEM is moot.

My last point calls out "Gemmtech" with a specific question:
"And I believe (until I'm shown differently) that a PC can do everything a MAC can do but a MAC can't do everything that a PC can do in it's native OS state!  "
- How is this shown to you satisfaction?

I'm pretty sure that there is no attainable answer to that last question.  The comparisons "Gemmtech" uses as the basis for his viewpoints are not reconcilable with the possibility that Apple customers are anything other than wrong.  Apple customers can't be 'right' for "Gemmtech".
I accept that and celebrate it.  I would NOT want everyone to think the same on any complex subject.
No one gets hurt when people buy Dell or Apple or Sony or Toshiba computers.  People are happy exploring the universe and doing their jobs and trying new things and listening to music and watching media and creating.

Happy.  Get what you want.


For now,
Regards,
Pascal


*: irony and/or sarcasm
« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 02:29:29 PM by Pascalf » Logged
Pascalf
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« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2011, 02:03:33 PM »
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Er, the point I took issue with was the nonsense statement that all Mac purchases are emotional decisions. I haven't proved your point at all.

What "Chairman Bill" said.


Pascal
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Pascalf
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« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2011, 02:09:57 PM »
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OP - Your going to switch back to PC because you dont like Apples politics ?

That is ridiculous - I am amazed that would be even a remote consideration .......

What about wanting a machine that actually works and is stable ? I run several MACs the Oldest being 10 years old....all run flawlessly and always have. I also have Dell Laptops that are absolute junk after 1-2 years of service - never again !

If that is your stand what about Microsoft "politics" of releasing buggy Junk since windows 3.0 ...remember what a success Vista was  ?



Also, this [from "DENNISCARBO"].  Without the amazement.  I see these 'political' considerations a lot, from all 'sides' of the triangle [Linux, OS X, Windows].


Pascal
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kikashi
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« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2011, 03:07:39 PM »
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There's no doubt people also buy based upon past experience and if you have been using MACs for 5-10-15-20 years and have a good user experience I can understand buying another, but that's truly an emotional decision.
While much of what you say may be correct, this sentence is pure drivel. In the circumstances you describe, buying another Mac (and it's Mac, incidentally, not MAC: it's an abbreviation, not an acronym) is an entirely rational decision, based on experience and not on emotion.

I don't know how you value your time but the hours I would have to invest in learning a new OS would, at my hourly rate, far exceed any difference in the cost of hardware. That's one of the reasons I shan't change. Emotion? I think not.

Jeremy
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Bryan Conner
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« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2011, 03:51:53 PM »
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ok, now that this dead horse has had the crap beaten out of it, here is a a question of equal significance in the whole scheme of things:  Which tastes better?  Coca Cola or Pepsi? And why?
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Dennis Carbo
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« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2011, 03:56:27 PM »
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Coke is more stable......just sayin... Tongue
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Gemmtech
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« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2011, 04:08:04 PM »
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“Er, the point I took issue with was the nonsense statement that all Mac purchases are emotional decisions. I haven't proved your point at all.”

It’s not a nonsense statement!  And I don’t believe I said all MAC purchases are emotional, because if you own a company with 10+ employees and you own all MACs I could understand buying another MAC, however as you upgrade each machine I certainly would switch over to PCs.  And you have proven my point because the only “valid” reason you give for buying a MAC today is because Windows 95 was awful.  I’ll take your word that MAC was a better more reliable machine in 1995, but I’m talking about 2006 and on, please give me a rational reason why one should buy a MAC today? 
I’ve asked about software programs that are ported exclusively to a MAC whereas no ALTERNATIVE exists (PASCAL) IOW, don’t mention Aperture because obviously programs which are just as good or probably better exist (I have a little Aperture experience). 

“I agree: people who do not DEPEND in their computers [have computers as a hobby or interest] for their income have differing priorities compared to people who require very stable computers working at top speed every job, every day, where failures or instability are best avoided, lest we suffer the loss of (a) the job, (b) the client, (c) the season/ opportunity.”
Pascal, you don’t even make sense!  I’m not talking about untested home brewed machines.  Mission critical, how about work for NASA, Nuclear Navy, or Rolls Royce, Harley Davidson, Coke?  How about accounting, tax compliance and consultation for Fortune 1000 companies?  Yes, mission critical work, machines must be very stable and reliable.  Stop the nonsense.  How about designing buildings?  How about the structural engineering required for tall skyscrapers?  I’m not talking about making a movie here, talking about human lives!  Yes, all mission critical.
After building thousands of machines since 1998 (some of those were for people over the age of 70 who never used a computer before) I'm convinced that a MAC is not anymore user friendly than a PC and in my experience it's been the other way around.

“- Your Mileage Varies from mine.”
I just wonder how miles you have driven?
"However, IMHO the two OS are close enough as to be a non-issue."
- No.  We don't agree on that point.
I haven’t read one unbiased expert review that doesn’t state they are very close and every MAC user that I know readily admits that Windows is equally as reliable and just as stable if not more so.  My MAC use starts in 2006 and there’s no denying they are both equally stable, though MACs can’t do all that PCs can do.

“- How is this shown to you satisfaction?
- This dilemma/ issue is also reflected in several 35mm vs. medium format discussions.”

You truly don’t understand?  It’s quite simple, explain to me what a MAC can do that a PC can’t.  Show me a software package ported to a MAC that there is no PC alternative, IOW as I stated above Aperture is a very poor example because obviously there are better programs out there for a PC.  Forget 35mm and MF, it’s a lousy analogy.
I have taken every type of MAC apart and they use all the "normal" PC components, they just charge a lot more for them.
“- We don't completely agree on that point.”
Explain?  What part do you agree with?  I have MACs sitting right in front of me, none have any different brand of components than any other company and they don’t come close to matching what I build. 
 “cherry-picking: you are not comparing FACTORY assembled computers to CUSTOM BUILT machines, are you?”
No Pascal, just unreliable Home Brew machines 
As I stated, your list of pros for the MAC is silly and absolutely false.  Maybe you did install a BlueRay drive in a MAC Pro but it’s not supported by Apple or the MAC OS, I thought you only used tried and true machines?  You know, for the mission critical work your clients do? 
“- The design choices one company makes [Apple] versus the design choices computer PARTS suppliers can make.  Again, comparing CUSTOM BUILT machines vs STOCK machines is a not valid balance.” 
Again, a silly statement because there are large computer companies that do build machines with the components I’ve discussed.  What’s wrong with comparing a custom built PC with an Apple if it’s better, faster, stable, reliable and less expensive?  Would your clients have a problem with a better machine for less money?
"On a more simple note, a MAC can't use a USB3 device and doesn't support BluRay."

“- I'll let my client know he has an machine that does not exist.*”
You’ll notice I didn’t state a BluRay player won’t work with a MAC?  I said it’s NOT supported and for mission critical work, don’t you want all your components to be natively supported?
What is supported by a MAC that isn't by a PC or where there is no PC equivalent?

“- What is supported on ANY, CUSTOMIZED Apple machine that is not supported by ANY, CUSTOMIZED machine running Windows?  That seems to be your real question.  Or it would be if you were looking for a more balanced comparison.”
WRONG, I’m not even speaking about the components; I’m speaking about Windows and MAC OS.  I’m asking you and Bill what software packages you use that are exclusive to the MAC OS whereas there are no viable PC alternatives, I gave some examples.
“I'll compare the way you compare: particular hardware abilities.
[All of the universe vs. Apple]
- Target mode?
- network boot [since OS9]?”
You are kidding right?   You don’t know how to boot from a network?  I’ll research Target mode and get back to you on that one, but I have a feeling it’s irrelevant.
 One such example are CAD programs, the MAC OS can't run CAD programs, need the proof?

“I'll compare the way you compare: 'exclusive' software:
- iLife?
- Aperture?
- Final Cut Pro?
- iWork?
- Logic?
- Alias Sketch? [Oops, that finally was migrated to Windows]
- Marionette? [Oops, that has yet to be available outside of Pixar]
- ElectricImage? [Oops, that finally was ported to Windows]
- RenderMan? [Oops, that finally was ported to Windows]
- AVID [Oops, that finally was ported to Windows]”
It’s not the way I compare at all, I gave a list of programs where there is no substitute, listing Aperture is silly, I-work, Final Cut Pro, I-life, Logic all have PC alternatives.
"I doubt you will find a $100,000.00 engineering software package ported to a MAC?  Or a $250,000.00 accounting software package?"
- Are these programs a good value?  I'm pretty sure OSX and Linux can do math operations.
- Buying expensive software is an emotional decision.*

And there isn't anything comparable to Auto-Cad.

“- Buying AutoCAD is to fulfill a purely emotional need*.  There are much more affordable software packages that can do whatever AutoCAD can do.
- There is nothing AutoCAD can do that cannot be done on any other software packages.
[- I went there.]”

Yes, you very stupidly went there with more idiotic statements.  I can tell you have NEVER touched Auto-Cad because nobody would buy it based upon an emotional need unless you like to torture yourself!  Just kidding, but it’s very powerful software with a steep learning curve.  As far as what other CAD software packages can do, well all the good ones are based upon the Auto-Cad engine!!
 
“My main point in this post:  many of my client choose OS X [and related hardware] because of STABILITY. And dependability.  And perceived ease of use.
All of these points are SUBJECTIVE, and are usually based on experience, personal or otherwise.”
I don’t dispute that there are probably many people who perceive MACs as more reliable and dependable, even without ever touching a PC.  Plus, are you sure it’s not your infectious personality that sways them towards a MAC?  If they like you, they will like what you propose, right?  I wouldn’t say that stability and dependability are subjective; I’d say it is or it isn’t. 
“If your cost-benefit analysis does NOT include OBJECTIVE or SUBJECTIVE stability comparisons, don't bother.  Most OS X users PAY MORE for the INCREASED stability, reliability, and SERVICE that Apple is perceived to provide.”
Of course my cost benefit includes stability, reliability and performance.  Obviously Apple has marketed their products in such a manner as to make people believe something other than reality.  They couldn’t charge more for a computer if everybody knew they could get something better for less money.  That is why I’ve always realized there’s no way to win this debate, because Apple wouldn’t have a $300+ billion market cap if people thought they were buying overpriced nicely designed computers, phones, music devices, etc.
“Perception is important.  Dismissing the perception of others without convincing THEM is moot.”
Honest to GOD, Albert Einstein has NOTHING on you!!!  Wink
“My last point calls out "Gemmtech" with a specific question:”

And I believe (until I'm shown differently) that a PC can do everything a MAC can do but a MAC can't do everything that a PC can do in it's native OS state! 

“- How is this shown to you satisfaction?”

Very simple and I think I have asked many times.  Please read above! 
“I accept that and celebrate it.  I would NOT want everyone to think the same on any complex subject.”
Look, buying a computer is NOT a complex subject, Black Holes, Quarks, Quantum Physics, Calculus, A cure for AIDS or Cancer, these are complex subjects. 
I was just curious what rational reason one could have to buy a MAC in 2011?  Is there software that only runs on a MAC that there is no comparable software for a PC?  Obviously if somebody says to you, “I want a computer to run AutoCad” I wouldn’t think you’d sell him a MAC, would you?  I’d build him a killer workstation utilizing an Intel MB, dual XEON CPUs, Nvidia Quadro 5000, 24GB Crucial / Corsair RAM, at least two Seagate Cheetak 15K Hard drives (Possibly SSD instead if they understood the risks and costs) set up in a RAID Array, I’d probably at least use two of the fastest SSD made for OS and Programs set up in a RAID O configuration, with a ghost image after it’s all loaded. All wrapped up in a nice Coolermaster or equal case, powered by a PC Power & Cooling or equal PS and it would be loaded with Windows 7 64 BIT, I’d either use an NEC or Samsung monitor 27” or 30”  Now price it all out and you will understand my point!  I’ll give you all the exact part numbers.
“Guess you aren't married?

When my wife said:  "I need a new computer, can I have a mac?" ... I said: "Sure."  She hasn't asked for my help with the computer since.

One of the most rational things I did all last year.  I guess that was 2010 and not 2011 ... so ....   ”


Yes, I am married and my wife said “There are 6 computers in this house and not one of them is mine, I want my own!”  So I bought her an IMAC 24” and then the first phone call, “How do you maximize the window?” the 2nd call “How do you preview the photos in the folder?” many other calls in between and then naturally “Honey, the computer died” (Hard drive died within 6 months) after that is was “Honey, the monitor looks weird, I can see the icons and previous windows in my word document” I call it burn in and Apple calls it “Image Persistence”.  Finally got everything up and working after Apple replaced the hard drive (Don’t ask about their warranty policy) and she tells me “The computer isn’t working again” (another hard drive died, I replaced it myself, suction cups, duct tape, #6 torx heads, #0 screwdriver, lift this, move this to the right, do this, then that……………………………….WOW, just to replace a freakin hard drive!!!  Got it back up and working,  Last request I got from her “Can you please just install windows on this thing”   Grin
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Gemmtech
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« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2011, 04:21:09 PM »
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While much of what you say may be correct, this sentence is pure drivel. In the circumstances you describe, buying another Mac (and it's Mac, incidentally, not MAC: it's an abbreviation, not an acronym) is an entirely rational decision, based on experience and not on emotion.

It's not drivel, but I'll concede there is some rational thought if you've had many years success with a product.  That's not to say that it's 100% rational, there is an emotional component there, how it looks, heft, perception? That's the emotional part.  Why do you think Apple almost and would have gone bankrupt, possibly out of business completely?  Why do you believe they are successful today?  

I would have never used a MAC based upon my experience with PCs, however I've always been curious and love to experiment, call it "Baby Syndrome"  they are sponges and love to absorb everything,  The older one becomes the less likely they are to change or to experiment.  I have friends who refuse to pay for anything over the internet, they won't use online banking and won't electronically file a tax return.  I had always heard many wonderful things about Macs and so I decided to finally buy a few and now I work on them as well, NOT FUN.  After four years of using and repairing them I came to the conclusion Apple is a wonderful marketing company and they sell good looking computers, laptops, phones, Ipods, etc.  Today, January 14th, 2011 they are no more reliable, stable or dependable than a well built PC, but they certainly cost more! There is nothing that a Mac can do that a PC can't, the reciprocal is not true. If there is something, please state what it is? 

I know it's Mac and I know what MAC stands for  Grin

"I don't know how you value your time but the hours I would have to invest in learning a new OS would, at my hourly rate, far exceed any difference in the cost of hardware. That's one of the reasons I shan't change. Emotion? I think not."

I don't know, there is a learning curve with every operating system, but I love education and I love to learn.  At some point all operating systems have significant changes that require us to learn.  I didn't mind learning Linux or the Mac Os.  And to be honest, for me anyhow, the OS is the easy part, learning Auto-Cad, SoftPlan, Photoshop etc. that's where the hours are put in.  I believe that a lot of computer users spend more time using their software programs then playing around with the OS.  Naturally when something with the OS breaks, we need to be able to fix it.  I find fixing the operating systems today a lot easier than in years past.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 04:30:08 PM by Gemmtech » Logged
Dennis Carbo
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« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2011, 05:42:36 PM »
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Gemmtech ,

what is your take on Vista ?  That was the prior OS to Windows 7  - I dont have experience with Win 7 so it may be better however, Vista was a very recent and REAL trainwreck of an OS so you dont have to go back to WIN 95 to find an unstable OS from microsoft.

You should visit some Photo studios in NYC & LA - 95% Mac.  I use a Mac because Microsoft continued to screw me with unreliable OS offerings until I had to switch to another platform. Glad they got it right with WIN 7,but they ran out of chances with my business....I am a photographer not an I.T. guy.

Just real world experience in my business.

D

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Christopher
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« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2011, 06:36:56 PM »
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Don't you all think we went a little off topic?

I mean Rainer wanted some general advice and not a war between Mac and windows users Wink
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MrSmith
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« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2011, 06:45:08 PM »
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"explain to me what a MAC can do that a PC can’t"
get fanboys hot under the collar?

it's a tool for a job.
it makes my job easier.
it earns me money
i find it easy to understand.
it runs an external monitor and holds a profile for each one without issues
it has a powered firewire port that runs the digital cameras i need to do my job
it runs final cut
it runs Bracketeer (no p.c. version) the HDR software that gives me realistic usable results for my work.
i made an emotional decision to keep buying a new one every 3 years because i see no reason to change when it does all of the above.

i don't care what other people use why, all the hand wringing and consternation about a computer?
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Eric Myrvaagnes
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« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2011, 08:10:14 PM »
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Gemmtech ,

what is your take on Vista ?  That was the prior OS to Windows 7  - I dont have experience with Win 7 so it may be better however, Vista was a very recent and REAL trainwreck of an OS so you dont have to go back to WIN 95 to find an unstable OS from microsoft.

You should visit some Photo studios in NYC & LA - 95% Mac.  I use a Mac because Microsoft continued to screw me with unreliable OS offerings until I had to switch to another platform. Glad they got it right with WIN 7,but they ran out of chances with my business....I am a photographer not an I.T. guy.

Just real world experience in my business.

D


Dennis,

I'm not Gemmtech and I have virtually no experience with Macs (my two or three brushes with them years ago were painful), but I have used almost every MS OS since MSDOS 2.0. For a number of years (until just a few years ago) I frequently commented to anyone who would listen that MSDOS 5.0 was Microsoft's last OS that was ready for public release.

Since you and many others have bashed Vista, I'd like to state here my own experience with various recent versions of Windows.

Win 3.1:      I have pretty much repressed all memories of it. Truly a nightmare.
Win 95:       I recall clearly that my PC crashed on average about once a week. Not fun.
Win 2000:   Crashed only about twice a month. Improved.
Win XP:       Crashed only about once a month. Better yet, but still considerable pain and suffering.
Win Vista:    Yes, the first release could have been considered a "trainwreck", but even that was much better than any of the previous versions. And all of the major flaws were gone by the time Service Pack 1 rolled around. Does it still crash sometimes? Well, yes. But my current average is about once a year, on my lowly Dell XPS with all sorts of modifications and at least nine external HDs hanging off the back via a series of powered USB ports.

Oh yes, and I can print to Epson printers without the color management being screwed up, something that seems to be difficult with the latest Mac OS.

I do expect to move up to Windows 7 soon. But Vista has served me fine.

Bottom line: Vista is NOT XP, and Vista is NOT windows 95. But it works for me.

Eric
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-Eric Myrvaagnes

http://myrvaagnes.com  Visit my website. New images each season.
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« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2011, 08:18:50 PM »
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I mean Rainer wanted some general advice and not a war between Mac and windows users Wink

Mac vs PC?

You may as well ask Democrat vs Republican (or Tea Party–with Tea Party being Linux).

The sides draw their line in the sand and use whatever arguments they can to prove one OS better than the other.

I do run both...(for the purposes of testing software). I actually run Windows very well on my MacPro tower–best of both worlds (Windows 7 64-bit is really, really fast on a MacPro).

If you want to think of the ultimate difference between Mac vs PC, current Macs CAN run Windows (if you really need to) but "PC boxes" will NEVER be able to run Mac OS's.

Ultimately, that tells you something about the fundamentals...

Macs tend to be run by "creatives" and Windows by "conformists".

If you doubt this, consider the industries that have gravitated to Mac vs. Windows...Photo, Graphic Arts, Film (and I don't mean CGI farms that are generally Linux), a lot of science disciplines, a lot of medicine research, many writers all are Mac based.

Look who have gravitated to Windows; corporations (with IT departments), accounting (with IT departments), legal beagles (although there are some attorneys that buck the trend, big legal firms with IT departments are Windows), government (with IT departments–well, DOOOH)...

I know Windows users will chafe under the collars by being called "conformist"...well, sorry, but that's the way the numbers stack up. I don't know what the current Mac/PC market share is, but Windows (for "consumers, not "pros") was in the 90%+ range but Apple has been growing at a rate MSFT would LOVE to be able to see. Where do you go when you have about 90% of the market? Down...where do you go when you have less than 10% of the market? Hopefully up.

Being in the software biz (a bit) this is what I've seen...the number of people switching FROM Windows TO Mac is hugely in the favor of Macs...(this decade, in the 1990's it was the opposite).

Here's the bottom line, when it comes to Adobe software, pretty much ALL apps will be platform=agnostic which means there's no bennies on one side or the other. Same deal with most color management apps and print drivers.

So, if you have to ask the question which platform to use, you really need to ask yourself the question, why are you even asking the question...get the Mac!

Flame on...
 
« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 08:20:32 PM by Schewe » Logged
Sheldon N
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« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2011, 09:21:37 PM »
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I'm pretty much OS agnostic, have both a Mac and a PC and use both regularly. Have used Macs since my very first computer, a Mac LC. Used Windows more recently, some on XP and lately Vista. Both have worked fine for me, both have had their minor quibbles but generally been reliable.

What I can echo is Christopher's statement that the price/performance ratio is strongly in favor of PC's, at least if you're in the "build your own" camp. My primary photo workstation is nothing fancy, cost me about $1200 to build. My good buddy has a nicely equipped Mac Pro which cost him roughly 3x as much. I've used his machine quite a bit and my seat of the pants evaluation is that Lightroom 3 and Photoshop CS5 both run faster on my machine.

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