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Author Topic: Photoshop Alternatives  (Read 10886 times)
Schewe
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« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2011, 03:51:25 PM »
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I'm not sure where the impression it was intended to compete at the Photoshop level came from--for example, it only worked with 8-bit images!  You are correct that it was killed, but not because of any Photoshop compete story.

Sitting through some meetings in Redmond...the subject of which I can't really get into. And no, it was not originally intended to be a direct competitor to Photoshop head to head...but it was the last digital imaging app MSFT actually released (although I heard rumors of others in R&D and some discussion about going head to head with PS-which MSFT was smart enough not to try). The reason I mentioned DIS was that was the last time MSFT even tried to offer a digital imaging app and it did compete with Elements which is a Photoshop derivative...
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Farmer
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« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2011, 04:16:58 PM »
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Well don't you think it should be blisteringly clear to every visitor, and if not why not?

As I have already suggested as a website or web presence expands it becomes ever more difficult to manage and keep consistent and this is an example of the sort of wrinkle that can appear in the cloth. It is my belief that one of the major aims of any website is to guide the visitor to the information they seek in as quick and efficient manner as possible, that doesn't happen here and I have given two further examples which I have found difficult in the past, so I'm not shooting just at Adobe.

You Googled and decided to pick a page that wasn't the front page.  If you'd just typed adobe.co.ie (since you're in Ireland) you should have seen a "Photoshop Elements" on the front page.  Clicking that takes you to:

http://www.adobe.com/uk/products/photoshopel/

And there you can see the BUY and TRY along with features, version comparison, etc.

I'm not sure it could be easier.  Do you really want a "try" button on every page?  Maybe that's a good idea (seriously), but I've never seen it done.  Try sending Adobe an email and tell them about the troubles you've had.

In the meantime, since multiple people have pointed you toward additional information and trial versions, why don't you trial them (along with any of the other software that interests you).

If you don't like the pricing, send feedback and vote with your feet.  It's expensive here, too (Australia), compared to the US, but once upon a time, I spent a long time working in international trade finance and I get that the issue is far more complex than just converting at the exchange rate.  I'm very happy with the level of support I can get locally, for example, and that costs real money.

Of course it would be great to not pay aruond 65% more - nobody likes paying more - but the price in this market is what it is.

If at the end of the day you find something better/cheaper/different/etc that you prefer then I don't think you'll find anyone here complaining - indeed, I'm sure we'll all be interested to hear about it, so long as it isn't prefaced with a whinge :-)
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Justinr
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« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2011, 05:10:55 PM »
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You Googled and decided to pick a page that wasn't the front page.  If you'd just typed adobe.co.ie (since you're in Ireland) you should have seen a "Photoshop Elements" on the front page.  Clicking that takes you to:

http://www.adobe.com/uk/products/photoshopel/

And there you can see the BUY and TRY along with features, version comparison, etc.

I'm not sure it could be easier.  Do you really want a "try" button on every page?  Maybe that's a good idea (seriously), but I've never seen it done.  Try sending Adobe an email and tell them about the troubles you've had.

In the meantime, since multiple people have pointed you toward additional information and trial versions, why don't you trial them (along with any of the other software that interests you).

If you don't like the pricing, send feedback and vote with your feet.  It's expensive here, too (Australia), compared to the US, but once upon a time, I spent a long time working in international trade finance and I get that the issue is far more complex than just converting at the exchange rate.  I'm very happy with the level of support I can get locally, for example, and that costs real money.

Of course it would be great to not pay aruond 65% more - nobody likes paying more - but the price in this market is what it is.

If at the end of the day you find something better/cheaper/different/etc that you prefer then I don't think you'll find anyone here complaining - indeed, I'm sure we'll all be interested to hear about it, so long as it isn't prefaced with a whinge :-)

Farmer, I am overwhelmed  by your immeasurable superiority and maturity and would welcome the chance to kiss your ass just as soon as the opportunity presents itself. There, now I hope you are happy with the response you seem to so earnestly crave. Meanwhile I'm off to bed, nighty night.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 05:12:30 PM by Justinr » Logged

Schewe
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« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2011, 05:49:53 PM »
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Meanwhile I'm off to bed, nighty night.

But still stuck using Photoshop CS...so who is the winner/loser? And the odds are real good, you won't find a competitive replacement for Photoshop...just a less expensive knockoff which will end up being less optimal.
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bradleygibson
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« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2011, 06:54:48 PM »
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Sitting through some meetings in Redmond...the subject of which I can't really get into. And no, it was not originally intended to be a direct competitor to Photoshop head to head...but it was the last digital imaging app MSFT actually released (although I heard rumors of others in R&D and some discussion about going head to head with PS-which MSFT was smart enough not to try). The reason I mentioned DIS was that was the last time MSFT even tried to offer a digital imaging app and it did compete with Elements which is a Photoshop derivative...

Actually you and I first met at one of those meetings.  In any case, yes, DIS was marketed as a competitor for Elements, but not Photoshop.
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Schewe
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« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2011, 07:03:07 PM »
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Actually you and I first met at one of those meetings.

Cool!!!

But as I remember, there was some "discussion" about what MSFT was thinking about putting out a digital imaging app. I kinda remember some comments about Photoshop needing some "competition" and some rumors about MSFT's Lightroom Killer...(which never shipped).

The bottom line is neither Apple nor MSFT is in a position to have a cross platform real competitor to Photoshop for a host of reasons–not the least of which is ain't EASY to come up with a Photoshop competitor.
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Justinr
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« Reply #46 on: January 24, 2011, 01:57:53 AM »
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But still stuck using Photoshop CS...so who is the winner/loser? And the odds are real good, you won't find a competitive replacement for Photoshop...just a less expensive knockoff which will end up being less optimal.

Schewe

May I recommend that at some time you take a step back, look real hard this posting of yours  and perhaps consider the notion that you have put on such a truculent display of petty minded stupidity that I for one am left to wonder just how such an obviously intelligent man could pride himself in appearing such a bollix (as they say hear in Ireland). Winner, loser?? Is this a playground or somewhere for intelligent debate? Do us all a favour and grow up for God's sake.
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kikashi
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« Reply #47 on: January 24, 2011, 02:13:28 AM »
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Schewe

May I recommend that at some time you take a step back, look real hard this posting of yours  and perhaps consider the notion that you have put on such a truculent display of petty minded stupidity that I for one am left to wonder just how such an obviously intelligent man could pride himself in appearing such a bollix (as they say hear in Ireland). Winner, loser?? Is this a playground or somewhere for intelligent debate? Do us all a favour and grow up for God's sake.
Justin,

Any rational, sensible reader of this thread, especially if he has read some of your other contributions to other threads, would suggest you look in a mirror.

Jeremy
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Justinr
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« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2011, 02:55:11 AM »
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Justin,

Any rational, sensible reader of this thread, especially if he has read some of your other contributions to other threads, would suggest you look in a mirror.

Jeremy

What is rational and reasonable? Who is to decide? By what measures do you judge such things? How you see me is one thing, how I often see others on here is something else. From reflecting upon my position on various matters I happy to report that thankfully I do not fit in to a sort of self regarding clique of new world superiority and conformity to assumed ideals. It would be a sad day indeed if I were to. Put it down to a clash of cultures if you like but I just don't buy into the idea of automatically assuming that progress or change is always heading in the right direction just because it is progress or change. Of course life moves on but are you suggesting that it's direction should never be challenged, is that what you find difficult to cope with, non 'establishment' ideas?
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Eric Myrvaagnes
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« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2011, 09:03:03 AM »
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Justin,

Any rational, sensible reader of this thread, especially if he has read some of your other contributions to other threads, would suggest you look in a mirror.

Jeremy
+10

Eric
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Justinr
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« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2011, 09:20:48 AM »
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+10

Eric

Fine, justify Rational and Sensible rather than indulge in sloppy platitudes.
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dmerger
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« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2011, 09:41:47 AM »
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Justin, Jeremy and Eric, a problem with this thread, as well as some others in this forum, is the lack of civility.  No one has to agree, but neither does anyone need to be uncivil. It would be more productive and pleasant for all if everybody would avoid insults and, instead, make their points in a civil, rational manner.  Alas, I doubt that that utopia will ever be realized, but perhaps if more members express their displeasure whenever anyone resorts to insults and incivility, whether you agree or disagree with the person otherwise, then the level of discourse in this forum will improve. 

Justin, please permit me to offer one piece of unsolicited advice:  Before deciding whether further to confront Jeff Schewe regarding the manner in which he has responded to your posts, you may want to review page two and three of this thread, and consider whether confronting Jeff is likely to be productive or to serve any useful purpose. http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=50387.20

On the other hand, Justin, I think it only fair to suggest that you take another look at your posts in this thread to see if you’ve been as civil as you could have been.  I and most everybody has, at one time or another, written in haste or when irritated, with the result that we weren’t as civil as we should have been.  It happens to all of us.  We can all, however, endeavor to improve.

Jeremy and Eric, I understand your point, but permit me to suggest that your posts may tend to inflame the incivility, not dampen it.  Perhaps it would be more productive to express displeasure with everyone’s incivility, rather than to focus just on Justin.
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Dean Erger
Justinr
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« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2011, 10:13:11 AM »
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Dmerger

The trouble is in replying to your post is that it can so easily dissolve in to a 'yes but no but' point scoring contest that holds no real interest to anyone except the inflamed participants.

Having said that I'd like it to be noted that I asked a perfectly civil question and it was immediately taken by some as an attack on Adobe and Photoshop and even though I made it clear in my second post that I am a quite satisfied user of said software the assumption still remained with various other members that I was denigrating it. I was therefore labelled as being 'Pissed off' (Schewe), 'Whinging' (Farmer) and indulging in 'sour grapes' (Schewe again) right from the first page. Pray tell me where I had attempted to cast such unpleasantries before they were thrown my way?

I think that you will also find that I answered other posters in a perfectly polite manner expressing my gratitude (sincerely held) for the helpful suggestions that were made.

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Jeremy and Eric, I understand your point, but permit me to suggest that your posts may tend to inflame the incivility, not dampen it.  Perhaps it would be more productive to express displeasure with everyone’s incivility, rather than to focus just on Justin.

I can hardly argue with that except to point out, if you will permit me, that you yourself have devoted a whole three paragraphs to admonishing me and just two lines to others.

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Chris_Brown
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« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2011, 10:46:13 AM »
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So Justin, what's it going to be? Photoshop or GIMP?
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Justinr
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« Reply #54 on: January 24, 2011, 11:04:51 AM »
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Certainly not GIMP! Been there, done that and ran away just as fast as I could  Cheesy (Same applies to Irfanview BTW)

For myself I am happy with CS, it's like a cosy old slipper now which may not be a good thing in a way as I feel sometimes that I should break out of that comfort zone just to freshen things up. However, as I've mentioned I find myself being asked for advice on image manipulation software and seeing as I don't like the two main freebies mentioned above I find myself stuck for an answer if PS is going to be too dear for occasional users. A couple of good pointers have come out on this thread so I'll be following them up at some point.
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Chris_Brown
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« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2011, 11:29:00 AM »
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There ya go. Photoshop it is. Time to upgrade, too. You'll be very impressed with the new tool set.
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Dan Berg
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« Reply #56 on: January 24, 2011, 11:42:57 AM »
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Certainly not GIMP! Been there, done that and ran away just as fast as I could  Cheesy (Same applies to Irfanview BTW)

For myself I am happy with CS, it's like a cosy old slipper now which may not be a good thing in a way as I feel sometimes that I should break out of that comfort zone just to freshen things up. However, as I've mentioned I find myself being asked for advice on image manipulation software and seeing as I don't like the two main freebies mentioned above I find myself stuck for an answer if PS is going to be too dear for occasional users. A couple of good pointers have come out on this thread so I'll be following them up at some point.

 The occasional user does not really need Photoshop. At half the price Lightroom is just about the best thing going. Easy to learn,easy to teach as well.
With Cs being about 5 years old you may want to dig in and see what Lightroom is all about.
If your educating others I would want to promote myself as having the most up to date post processing technology available.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 11:57:08 AM by Dan Berg » Logged

dmerger
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« Reply #57 on: January 24, 2011, 01:07:49 PM »
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Justin, I’m sorry you disliked my post, but I think you may have construed it in a manner I did not intend. Let me address your last point first.

You wrote: “I can hardly argue with that except to point out, if you will permit me, that you yourself have devoted a whole three paragraphs to admonishing me and just two lines to others.”  I intended my first paragraph to apply to every participant in this forum, and to set out the topic of my post.  I addressed it to Jeremy, Eric and you because you three were those most involved in the discussion at that time.  I didn’t include Jeff for the reason alluded to in my second paragraph. So, if you construed my first paragraph to be an admonishment of you, it is not what I intended.  Also, my second paragraph was not intended as an admonishment of you, and I really can’t figure out why you think it was so.  All I can say is that is not what I intended.

I’d also like to make a general comment about something else you wrote:  “Pray tell me where I had attempted to cast such unpleasantries before they were thrown my way?”  My following comment, however, is not intended to relate specifically to this thread, you or anyone else.  I don’t want to get into a discussion of who threw the first stone.  I merely want to comment on the general implication of the sentence I just quoted.

When confronted with an insult, it’s human nature to retaliate in kind.  We’ve all done so.  I believe, however, that the better approach is to overcome our impulse, not stoop to the same level.  I believe a better reaction to an insult would be to try to keep the discussion on topic and civil, not escalate the incivility.  Perhaps if the insult is egregious (i.e., it’s obviously an insult and not perhaps a misunderstanding or just mildly confrontational, which can easily happen with written communication in the style of forum posts), point out that such insults are not necessary or appropriate, and perhaps suggest that the person making the insult could make his or her point in a more civil manner.  To do otherwise and retaliate in kind, usually just escalates the insults and puts a stop to any useful, helpful, rational discussion. Please note again, this paragraph is intended as a general statement and not intended to relate to this specific thread.

Lastly, perhaps I should explain why I’m taking the time to weigh in here at all.  Well, I’ve learned a lot of very useful information over the course of many years participating in this forum.  It’s an invaluable resource with many extremely knowledgeable people participating. Therefore, I have a selfish, vested interest in this forum, and incivility diminishes it.  In addition, although I may just be influenced by my recent personal experience in this forum, it seems to me that I’m seeing an increase in incivility.  This is not the only thread that is currently active to show such incivility. So, my posts here are my attempt to stem the tide, although I fear in vain.
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Dean Erger
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« Reply #58 on: January 24, 2011, 01:31:48 PM »
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Dean

I construed it as an admonishment of myself because you singularly failed to address it to the the other major protagonists, as you still do. Jeremy, Eric and I have exchanged heated words on another thread and although my replies to them both were doubtless robust there was no name calling or snide denigration of their character, I simply saw their intervention as unexpurgated ire rather than attempts at insulting me.  Now that leaves us with Farmer and Schewe who as I have already pointed out kicked off with the disdainful remarks.

Although your attempts at pacification are doubtless well meant and appreciated by all I am inclined to believe that the oil you are pouring on these troubled waters may yet ignite should it be seen to favour just a couple of the vessels caught in this wasteful storm.

Justin.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 01:43:32 PM by Justinr » Logged

Eric Myrvaagnes
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« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2011, 01:32:10 PM »
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Jeremy and Eric, I understand your point, but permit me to suggest that your posts may tend to inflame the incivility, not dampen it.  Perhaps it would be more productive to express displeasure with everyone’s incivility, rather than to focus just on Justin.

I apologize and will attempt to clarify my own position: I do object to incivility on the part of any posters to LuLa, and I will further state for the record that IMHO Justin is not the worst offender.

Eric
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