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Author Topic: Phase One IQ digital backs w/ retina type multi touch screen + USB 3.0  (Read 38248 times)
Gary Ferguson
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« Reply #200 on: February 04, 2011, 09:45:29 AM »
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Guy, thanks for your comments. I've posted before on digital backs and technical cameras, but essentially I believe (after several years of various Phase One backs on a Linhof M679cs) that it's an uncomfortable and compromised arrangement at best. However live view could make a major improvement. The questions though remain,

1. How "live" is the IQ180's live view?
2. Will it be decisively trumped by their next CMOS based chip?
3. Will that happen within their 18 month "future proofing" 90% discount deal?

The more I chew this one over the more it feels like if live view is what I really want, then I may be better waiting for a CMOS solution.
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willconnor
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« Reply #201 on: February 04, 2011, 09:49:24 AM »
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Live view would be great on a tech camera, but from what I can glean, it might be unrealistic to expect the IQ live view to be of much use   for framing.

I'm looking forward to the great screen, zoom, focus mask on the IQ for post capture evaluation, but for framing I'll continue to switch out between the gg and back.  For my method of shooting, which is very deliberate, slowly circling my "prey" until I see a refined, ideal composition through the optics, this works.  What I miss in speed and spontaneity, I hope I sometimes gain in one good image. 
 
I'll also, as I'm walking around, mark spots with sticks or tape and then come back and shoot from those spots.

While taking the back on and off can be a hassle, particularly in bad weather, it's the only way I see working with a tech camera-- for me.

I use two really nice gg's made by Bill Maxwell--one for wides and one for longer lenses.  And a Hass. rmfx removable viewfinder. 

Until live view develops to give me the same quality view...
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #202 on: February 04, 2011, 10:16:12 AM »
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Yea the live view one is really up in the air. Phase did not talk much about it and my feeling is it is ready to go just don't want the competition to see it 3 months out ( my speculation). If i had a question mark on the IQ this would be it on how good it really is going to be. Than on the other hand after playing with the IQ on how well they did with the UI and LCD than you wonder if we should question it since everything else is really brilliant design. We did not see focus mask but my feeling is if it is just like C1 than it's all good in my view. I agree though folks that are really after Live View right now it is a leap of faith. But after talks with Phase I can say this . They are on the move with product and technology. I just have a feeling they will pull this off since they did so well and better than i thought the new LCD and UI would be. As others i am hoping they can talk more about this soon as really not much has been said yet except they will have it in final production. Trust me i know we all have a lot of money riding on our purchases so we do not take this stuff lightly. I personally feel good about it though if that means anything. I honestly fell in love with the IQ and I really try to watch my excitement on this stuff because i certainly never want to mislead anyone ever on these high dollar items for sure. My opinion if Live view is a primary criteria for you than maybe wait it out some until more data comes out or some of the reviewers get this in our hands again before final release. Also you may want to chat with your dealers as they may have there pulse on this better than any of us too. I think it always comes back to doing your homework get as much data as you can and make good buy decisions that you are comfortable under your own skin.

As I see it the IQ is just killer for tech cams as we never have any confirmation on anything when shooting until you really hit C1. This changes the game IMHO. Sure you will have workarounds and it still may not be as fast as you want but you can break down walk away and feel a whole lot better you nailed it or at least confirmed your focus if not anything else. LOL
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MrSmith
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« Reply #203 on: February 04, 2011, 11:47:27 AM »
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so where next with the megapixel race?
22-30-39-50-60-80 so who's holding out for a 100-120mp back?
i can't wait.
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #204 on: February 04, 2011, 11:57:05 AM »
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I'm not waiting for anything like that. I'm pretty happy with 40 mpx but looking at these 80 mpx files just gives me a rush that is hard to describe. So much damn detail

Look at this one. Phase 150mm D lens 2.8 WIDE OPEN

The crop is  1200 pixel wide. remember this is wide open at 2.8. We have a whole bunch of images posted and honestly the detail out of this 80 back is simply mind blowing. Never seen anything like it . Need it or not it's out there for the taking.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 11:59:37 AM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

Gary Ferguson
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« Reply #205 on: February 04, 2011, 12:16:51 PM »
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Is that a touch of moire on the wire fence to the right of the outboards?
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marcmccalmont
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« Reply #206 on: February 04, 2011, 12:21:37 PM »
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Guy
please post more comments on color, DR, IQ etc I'll be moving from a P45+ and would like to know what to expect
Thanks
Marc
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Marc McCalmont
Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #207 on: February 04, 2011, 12:25:08 PM »
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It looks like it is. Or a anomaly that Phase will look at . They have all the raw files to take back to Denmark and analyze any adjustments they need to make. One thing was clear images area little red on the prototype which is pretty normal for a unit 3 months out from final. The P65 was worse when we did a pre production unit, so I would not look to far into the images yet until we start seeing production units. Now no question we will still see moire but given a 5.2 micron sensor it should be less than even the P40 and P65 at 6 micron. I know i get it sometimes on my P40+. I know folks look at it as bad and yes it can be but it also says something else as sort of credit to the sensor, lens and total combined imaging system. Jack got it also on another image as some guys pants at 100 yards away showed moire. Pretty amazing actually
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #208 on: February 04, 2011, 12:34:45 PM »
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Guy
please post more comments on color, DR, IQ etc I'll be moving from a P45+ and would like to know what to expect
Thanks
Marc

Right now color looks okay but until we get final firmware really hard to judge but it is fairly clean except for a base red in the files but they WB right out. Now on DR we did have dinner with Mark Dobovoy the day he shot his tests Thursday night last week and he mentioned to keep a eye on the DR which he felt did increase. We pretty much came to the same conclusions as well but without serious testing from any of us  we felt at least 1/3 of a stop maybe more. Obviously we all have to be careful since we all shot a prototype and nothing is set in stone yet and Phase is still tweaking the system but in general the IQ was right there in very good shape given its state of development. I feel very confident it will be at production levels like the P65+ for sure with maybe some extra DR coming. It is the new sensor and we will have to see how it shakes out.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 12:36:54 PM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #209 on: February 04, 2011, 02:05:22 PM »
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We are saying a conservative 1/3 but my feeling more like a 1/2. It's rated at 12.5 stops. Won't have final answer to that until final production. Not sure more DR is even possible at this level which is damn high right out of the gate.
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bcooter
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« Reply #210 on: February 04, 2011, 02:13:16 PM »
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If a fancy SUV got 12 miles per gallon and a few years later the new model got 12.3 miles per gallon, would anyone really care? Would it be deemed anything worth noting?

That's what the Dynamic Range measurement comments feel like.


Regardless of what anyone "advertises", the real benefit of this back is a usable lcd.

If the previous poster is correct, then this is just the first stage prior to going to cmos, which I'm sure will change the whole thought process  of real live view and maybe add video capabilities and higher iso.

That changes medium format, but 1/3 of a stop or 1/2 of a stop?   That's why we use crafted fill light in professional settings.

I never understand some of the excited buzz that comes out every time more megapixels are announced.  It's always that's incredible "we can see moire at 100 yards" or something like that, but rarely if ever does any of the images show a beautiful photograph and what the back can do to add to that process.   They are normally noon lit snapshots with 100% crops.   

I don't know how that moves anyone to purchase.

IMO

BC
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cyberean
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« Reply #211 on: February 04, 2011, 02:23:49 PM »
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That changes medium format, but 1/3 of a stop or 1/2 of a stop?   That's why we use crafted fill light in professional settings.

I never understand some of the excited buzz that comes out every time more megapixels are announced.  It's always that's incredible "we can see moire at 100 yards" or something like that, but rarely if ever does any of the images show a beautiful photograph and what the back can do to add to that process.   They are normally noon lit snapshots with 100% crops.   

I don't know how that moves anyone to purchase.


IMO

BC

who ever said any of the rah-rah
was about photography?
...  Wink
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check out the size of my sensor ...
Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #212 on: February 04, 2011, 03:14:25 PM »
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Regardless of what anyone "advertises", the real benefit of this back is a usable lcd.

If the previous poster is correct, then this is just the first stage prior to going to cmos, which I'm sure will change the whole thought process  of real live view and maybe add video capabilities and higher iso.

That changes medium format, but 1/3 of a stop or 1/2 of a stop?   That's why we use crafted fill light in professional settings.

I never understand some of the excited buzz that comes out every time more megapixels are announced.  It's always that's incredible "we can see moire at 100 yards" or something like that, but rarely if ever does any of the images show a beautiful photograph and what the back can do to add to that process.   They are normally noon lit snapshots with 100% crops.   

I don't know how that moves anyone to purchase.

IMO

BC

Love it , yeah I based my whole career on noon snapshots. This is about testing image quality and seeing what data comes off the sensor nothing about art. That part is up to whoever wants to buy any camera.
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marcmccalmont
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« Reply #213 on: February 04, 2011, 04:57:16 PM »
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in the past as photosites got smaller there were cases that the IQ got worse not better, ie canon g10/11 so the DR/noise questions are valid, that with a decrease in photosite size has there been a decrease in IQ? from most observations so far the IQ180 does not suffer from this
Marc
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Marc McCalmont
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« Reply #214 on: February 05, 2011, 11:15:59 AM »
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Quote
Love it , yeah I based my whole career on noon snapshots. This is about testing image quality and seeing what data comes off the sensor nothing about art. That part is up to whoever wants to buy any camera.


Don't get upset.  This isn't about your career or what your capable of, it's just about what you chose to present.

If I was going to become a "camera reviewer/consultant," I'd take a cue from Michael, because there is a reason he is well respected in his opinions . . . he nearly always tests within the genre which he works.

It's not my genre, but since it's within his experience zone, he has a comparison of one camera to the next that has validity.  Sure everyone has their bias, it's just human nature, though giving Michael's review a casual read,  I get the feeling that he is selling me less and informing me more.

He also puts out some nice photos, once again in the genre of his expertise.  

The video stuff that came out on this camera back, well it's like all you tube product intro videos, somewhat informative about the buttons and the screen, medium to low level production values,  but not really journalism, though I don't think  journalism is the goal.

The one question I would have liked asked by anyone is why the shape of the lcd in a 16x9 format?   I'm not the only one that noticed that screen format which leads me to believe that since Phase tends to use the same back architecture for a decade, is this the start of what's to come and if so . . . how soon?

So looking at the rear lcd my first question would be when is cmos coming with high def video?  I don't think it is probably a topic anyone selling a new $40,000 camera wants to approach today, but it sure seems possible that something else is coming down the line.

But back to the noon lit snapshots.  Nothing wrong with that if that's what you want to present and it's a style in which you work.  Alex Soth has shot a lot of noon lit photos for the look and I assume the effect and done quite well.   The difference is he shot his images for the photography, not for the camera.

IMO

BC




« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 11:28:19 AM by bcooter » Logged
Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #215 on: February 05, 2011, 03:09:18 PM »
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Obviously you have not seen what we done or care too but certainly enjoy riding my ass.  Not my issue and I do NOT write articles . We show images and talk about the images and what is going on with the images which i feel end of day what it is all about. Just a different way to approach things. Your opinions are extremely biased towards the negative of Phase which has been so obvious for a long time even though you shoot there products. I question who you are really upset with the company and its people or the actual products ( i already know this answer)not to mention a thread you started about being a nicer person or something awhile back, maybe time to reread your thoughts there. That's your issue and frankly me being upset is meaningless but your insults do travel to people that actually care about what is presented to them and end of day it IS about data sharing NOT sales. As far as what to show it is simply a matter of timing with some of these products in this case we had 10 am to about 3 pm of shooting time and not in my town either so obviously not a choice in the matter and like anyone else we would love more time with them to do things in our actual work style, not the case here. James a real reminder here this is about the camera and NOT about the art. Its a product that is being reviewed not photography. What we do with the gear after we have it than it turns to photography but right now it is sensor, metal , glass  and technology that is on trial. Nothing else so maybe we see this differently I don't know but to me this has nothing to do with with the art at this stage.  You want to talk about this more than lets do it privately.
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eronald
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« Reply #216 on: February 05, 2011, 05:57:30 PM »
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Regardless of what anyone "advertises", the real benefit of this back is a usable lcd.

If the previous poster is correct, then this is just the first stage prior to going to cmos, which I'm sure will change the whole thought process  of real live view and maybe add video capabilities and higher iso.

That changes medium format, but 1/3 of a stop or 1/2 of a stop?   That's why we use crafted fill light in professional settings.

I never understand some of the excited buzz that comes out every time more megapixels are announced.  It's always that's incredible "we can see moire at 100 yards" or something like that, but rarely if ever does any of the images show a beautiful photograph and what the back can do to add to that process.   They are normally noon lit snapshots with 100% crops.   

I don't know how that moves anyone to purchase.

IMO

BC

Any SLR now on the market, with a *real* lens (not kit) and studio flash can get any reasonable job done.

So, Phase and Hassy can say the do things well, but no one can claim that they *have* to buy their stuff.

Now, if you talk video, RED may have an argument of being the only game in town.

Edmund

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Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
Jack Flesher
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« Reply #217 on: February 05, 2011, 06:47:06 PM »
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The one question I would have liked asked by anyone is why the shape of the lcd in a 16x9 format?  

We answered that one James, you must have missed it  --- it's so you can have the full 4:3 aspect image onscreen PLUS a hitso and highlight warning display. 

Cheers,
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marcmccalmont
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« Reply #218 on: February 05, 2011, 07:06:40 PM »
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my guess is it was one of the few hi res touch screens available OEM
you can only design with available parts
Marc
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Marc McCalmont
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« Reply #219 on: February 06, 2011, 11:22:32 AM »
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Guy,

Believe it or not I'm on your side.


My point isn't about Phase. 

I'd have the same view if it was Canon, Nikon or Pepsi.

If your an advertising photographer, journalist, offer consulting services, bandwidth, have an audience, have a following, my advice is don't give it up for free or don't do it under restraints that won't allow you to showcase how well you can shoot something.

Once again, this isn't about Phase, they're just the example that is out there at the moment, because they have a new product. 

Next month it will probably be a Canon 5d3 or whatever and 4,000 websites and blogs will start giving reviews where their remuneration is close to zero and the photos they produce with the prototype are 3 hour snapshot sessions that don't positively move their standing as an artist or business person.

I don't dislike that you dig equipment, I think that's fine.  I don't dislike what you produced,  because art, even technical art can be very subjective.   My question is are you happy with what you produced?

Was it good for you today, will it be good for you in the future?

You know . . . I understand some of the dealers and reps that go on forums to inform and sometimes it's appreciated.

Let's just not forget  that they also go on forums  to sell.  Social media in any form is virtually free advertising and since most of the dealers and reps are in it for profit . . . why not take advantage of the bandwidth?

The only issue I have is the word free and advertising in the same sentence.

That's really the point I was trying to make.


Advertising;

Advertising is a form of communication intended to persuade an audience (viewers, readers or listeners) to purchase or take some action upon products, ideas, or services. It includes the name of a product or service and how that product or service could benefit the consumer, to persuade a target market to purchase or to consume that particular brand. These messages are usually paid for by sponsors and viewed via various media.

IMO

BC
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