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Author Topic: Nikon 24 PCE  (Read 9127 times)
BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2011, 08:35:25 AM »
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I believe the focal plane is spherical, not flat - it's part of the Tilt/Shift design.
Hence when shooting a flat surface (like a building), the corners cannot be sharp unless DoF and focussing take this into account.

There is no need to believe, when you can make sure. All it takes is a simple (yet critically sensitive) test. Just shoot a detailed floor/street surface, from a shallow/low angle without tilt, at a wide aperture. When the focal plane is not planar, then the DOF area will not be a straight line. You can test it with the focus in the center of the lens, and with the focus at e.g. the lower edge. You can even add left/right shift.

Make sure that you don't confuse a tilted plane of focus with a curved plane of focus!

That should convert you from a believer into someone in the know, whatever the outcome.

Cheers,
Bart
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Tony Beach
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« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2011, 10:37:48 AM »
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Kers experience matches mine....
I've got both the MkI and MkII Canon 24mm TS-E and often get apparent corner softness when centre focussing.
I also sort it out by increasing DoF and tweaking focus.

I believe the focal plane is spherical, not flat - it's part of the Tilt/Shift design.
Hence when shooting a flat surface (like a building), the corners cannot be sharp unless DoF and focussing take this into account.

First, I'm referring to my experience with the Nikkor 24 PC-E and with the Schneider 28 PC, so how that relates to a Canon T/S lens is murky at best.  Second, my Schneider does better than what I got from my Nikkor.  Third, the issue only arose at the extreme edges of the image circle, neither lens I had experience with required any kludging of the focus when not shifted.  Fourth, my experiences involved using the lenses focused at infinity with what should be infinite DOF (subjects at 20 or more feet away shot at f/13).
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Nacnud
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« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2011, 10:51:03 AM »
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LOL - both of you have made good points Smiley

Kers experiences are sufficiently similar to mine that I believe there may be parallels in the design of the two lenses.

I can't do the testing right now, but I did have enough time to do some Googling....
I found a relevant article right here on LL
The last section is the relevant bit.
"I have read in many reviews from owners of these lenses complaining about the edges not being sharp at wide apertures. This is true and although not desirable it is necessary and can be quite simply explained. This lens is not of a flat field design!"

That's quite a heavy article and certainly reinforces that not all T/S lenses are going to have the same focussing characteristics.
Really interesting thread this one; I'm looking forward to seeing where it heads.
Duncan
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kers
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« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2011, 12:40:19 PM »
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I'm one of those who changed system.... The D3X have a better file, by a fair margin, but those two new TS-E lenses are just so fantastic! - so are the old 90mm, but the 45mm kind of sucks.
Like Kirk, my dream would be the D3X body with the Canon TS-E's and the Canon way of live view (and Olympus's anti dust system, for making the dream complete....)
/adam


I stay with Nikon for the moment...
The 45mm PCE is a great lens as is the 85mm PCE.  from 2,8 on very good
Then there is the fantastic 14-24mm...
the new non zoom pro-lenses are all very expensive but very good...
Then there is the D3s for all my bad lit subjects...
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Pieter Kers
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Rob C
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« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2011, 12:53:04 PM »
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Kers experience matches mine....
I've got both the MkI and MkII Canon 24mm TS-E and often get apparent corner softness when centre focussing.
I also sort it out by increasing DoF and tweaking focus.

I believe the focal plane is spherical, not flat - it's part of the Tilt/Shift design.Hence when shooting a flat surface (like a building), the corners cannot be sharp unless DoF and focussing take this into account.

Standing by to be shot down in flames - Duncan


Duncan

Not eclusive to T/S lenes: the BJP did tests on wide lenses during the late 80s - early 90s and they did this by setting up a camera (I think it was 4x5) and actually putting a series of markers down on the ground in an open square somewhere, in whichever position that they appeared the sharpest on the screen. On completion, it turned out that the marker cones described a curve, leading to the conclusion that the plane of sharpness wasn't really a flat plane at all, but a shell-like thing....

So no flames this time!

Rob C
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messengerphoto
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« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2011, 09:00:31 PM »
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You seem to be very well versed in the use of the T/S lenses. I own Nikon. I wanted to buy the PCE-24 but after reading your comments, as well as a lot of other Architects comments, I am now certain the Canon T/S 24mm is a better lens. I wish to keep my Nikon gear.  Is it worth it, in your opinion, to buy the Canon T/S 24mm lens, and a cheaper Canon body? I was thinking of getting either a used D40, or D20, or even a newer Rebel body, say the T2i?  This allows me to buy the better Canon Glass, but still keep what I like in the Nikon. Thanks for your input.
John Messenger
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pfigen
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« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2011, 12:42:58 AM »
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"Is it worth it, in your opinion, to buy the Canon T/S 24mm lens, and a cheaper Canon body? I was thinking of getting either a used D40, or D20, or even a newer Rebel body, say the T2i?"

You would probably want to get a full frame body with LiveView focusing in order to get the most from this great lens. That means a 5D2.

I also have to say that while I haven't done really formal tests, both the 17 and 24 t/s Canons seem to have a much flatter field of focus than any other wide angles I've used for 35mm based cameras.
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messengerphoto
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« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2011, 07:20:15 AM »
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I was afraid of that. I don't mind having another system, but I certainly mind the price.
Thanks for your reply.
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Nacnud
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« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2011, 11:16:49 AM »
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I think sensor size is not critical as the edges and corners are always the optical weakpoints and they get cropped off APS-C images. It's more question of whether you need a true 24mm or the 38mm equivalent APS-C ends up with.

Live view is seriously desirable for tweaking focus!
Good manual control is essential because the metering goes loopy when shifting.
High ISO isn't an issue because it'll be on a tripod most of the time.
I guess RAW is not essential because you can bracket your exposures.

If you don't want to buy new, then I'd suggest a 40D which is one of Canon's benchmark models and a good all-round performer.
However, if you are thinking of buying Canon because of the TS-E lens quality then maybe you need to think about investing in a body that will do the lens justice.
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pfigen
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« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2011, 11:50:20 AM »
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Nacnud - Almost everyone I've ever run in to who buys a 24mm T/S lens is buying one for the 24mm full frame angle of view, so I would suggest that sensor does make a difference. Nothing wrong with a 38mm equivalent, but it's not a very practical focal length for the types of images that these lenses are commonly used for. And there are 35mm shift lenses available as well (I own both the Oly and the Zeiss).

As far as the new lenses not being sharp it the corners of a full frame sensor image, that's completely bogus. The Canon 24 II is sharp even wide open into the unshifted corners. It's arguably the sharpest 24mm lens available for any 35mm platform.

Here's the real deal on shifting: Most of the time when shooting buildings, interiors, products, portraits, etc. your shifting is going to be up and down if you're using a horizontal frame, and while there is some falloff in resolution at the extreme horizontal shift on a horizontal frame, there is none visible when shifting up or down. That's not to say you can't shift laterally, you do want to watch the extreme corners though. Is that enough to keep you using a crop sensor? Hell, no. In fact, one of my favorite ways to use these lenses, the 17 t/s in particular, is to shoot three horizontal images that are stitched into a single file that is the equivalent of the 36 x 48 mm frame. Those images, if focused carefully are sharp all the way to the corners, and make for something close to what a 10 or 11 mm lens would see on a full frame, except you've now got the equivalent area of a MFDB. Pretty amazing and even wider than a Rodenstock 23 on an Alpa.

Just to emphasize the point, I'll post an image that illustrates this. These lenses, as I've said before, have changed what's possible. This was actually a handheld image, stitched from three frames - shifted up, down and normal, with the Canon 17. It's the new wing of the Kaiser Hospital in W. L.A. and using a tripod would have brought in the security guards, but you get the idea
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Nacnud
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« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2011, 01:31:25 PM »
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Yeah - I'm full frame myself; but the post did mention not wanting to spend huge money on the body.
If 38mm is OK for what they want to do, then it's an affordable way to start making use of the lens with the option to upgrade the body later.
Used 40D's seem to be holding their value, so they wouldn't lose much money.

I know what you mean about 38mm not being convenient.
I also do festival photography and used to do a lot of stitching to get the images wide enough with the 24-105. Then I got the 5DII and I now find I rarely stitch...

I'm out with the TS-E tomorrow - I'll take a critical look at how I'm focussing and will report back.
Yes it's sharp - it's the first lens I've used that's noticeably sharper than my 70-200 f4 IS L.
It's jaw droppingly sharp.
But I'm sure I found and corrected the symptoms I've described during an intensive landscape shoot last month.


That's an incredible shot you posted; especially considering it is a hand-held shifted stitch. I've always used a tripod for mine!
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messengerphoto
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« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2011, 10:40:41 AM »
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Thanks for all the information. I am going to reconsider my budget. I am convinced the lens will provide optimum benefit when coupled with a full frame camera, regardless of the manufacturer. I may have to compromise and purchase the Nikon version, knowing it is not quite the same as the Canon. Dykinga (sp) produces fantastic images with the Nikon Pce's. The Nikon D700 should hit the market at a good used price very soon and that should allow me to meet my objectives.  Y'all are a great help.
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craigwashburn
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« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2011, 03:46:51 PM »
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Question for nikon 45 T/S owners - do you find your focus slipping when its pointed down?  I did buy mine used from KEH, and it is in excellent condition, but I do find focus slips a hair when the barrel is pointing down. 

Right now a piece of gaff tape is my solution, but if this isn't a common problem it's probably worth sending in for a tightening up.

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Tony Beach
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« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2011, 04:13:15 PM »
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I never noticed any creep with my Nikkor 45/2.8 PC-E.
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langier
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« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2011, 08:01:13 AM »
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On my 24 PC there is a little bit of creep unless you tighten it down, otherwise a great lens for me.

I might add that I usually leave the lock knobs just loose enough so I can make an adjustment without having to tighten them in most cases unless I'm doing a critical series of photos such as in the studio. Sort of like adjusting an Arca-Swiss tension knob so that it stays put when you mount your camera but without too much slop that things go limp and flop-over.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 08:30:56 PM by langier » Logged

Larry Angier
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JeffKohn
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« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2011, 07:03:35 PM »
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Question for nikon 45 T/S owners - do you find your focus slipping when its pointed down?  I did buy mine used from KEH, and it is in excellent condition, but I do find focus slips a hair when the barrel is pointing down. 

Right now a piece of gaff tape is my solution, but if this isn't a common problem it's probably worth sending in for a tightening up.
If you're saying that you get some creep even when the tilt/shift knobs are tightened down, then no I have not see that. What I have seen is that with the 45 in particular you need to tighten down those knobs after adjusting tilt/shift, because there is some "slack" when they are loosened that can affect the plane of focus. But I've never seen any slipping of the focus ring itself.
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craigwashburn
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« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2011, 03:10:26 PM »
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If you're saying that you get some creep even when the tilt/shift knobs are tightened down, then no I have not see that. What I have seen is that with the 45 in particular you need to tighten down those knobs after adjusting tilt/shift, because there is some "slack" when they are loosened that can affect the plane of focus. But I've never seen any slipping of the focus ring itself.

No creep on the shift or tilt (once locked), it's the actual focus ring that slips a smidge with gravity's pull on front element.  I only notice it when shooting straight down on something at macro distances.  For now I've just placed a piece of gaff tape across that gives it enough friction that it won't slip.  My 24 doesn't have the issue.  At some slow point I'll get it in to NPS for a tightening. 

I just pulled it out to experiment, the barrel rotates all of a millimeter at most.  Though at a few inches distance that is enough to throw critical focus out.
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