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Author Topic: How can this be worth doing? NOT  (Read 11752 times)
rethmeier
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« on: February 21, 2011, 03:08:20 PM »
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Wallpaper City Guides is looking for shooters in Sydney.
Guess what the fees are they are offering?
Herewith the offer:

"Dear Willem,

I am the ************* of the Wallpaper* Magazine City Guides. The guides, published in association with Phaidon, present a tightly edited, discreetly packaged list of the most outstanding architecture and design from top cities around the world.
  
90 guides have already been released in England, and abroad, with further updates and translations in German, French and Japanese. We are currently commissioning photographers for the seventh set of guides, and I just wanted to check whether you would be interested in the possibility of shooting our next Sydney Guide.
  
To quickly sum up what the shoot would involve. The Shoot List will contain around 7 venues, usually less than this. It would mostly consist of interiors of hotels, bars, cafes, restaurants, shops and/ or spas and sports venues. We may also include some architecture, a skyline photograph showing major landmarks marked for the reader’s interest, and/ or possibly a local person who will give their top recommendations for the city.

We are working to very strict budgets for this project and there will be one total assignment fee of 250 GBP to include all expenses. At the moment, we are trying to find out who is free and interested and I understand that this would completely depend on your availability, and we have certain considerations at this end too, but if you think this is something that you might be interested in, please do let me know. We are looking at approximate dates of late February/ early March.

To see how the guides look, please visit http://www.phaidon.com/travel.  

Thank you,

Kind regards

••••••••••••••

••••••••••••••
Wallpaper* City Guides
Blue Fin Building
110 Southwark Street
London, SE1 0SU
+44 (0)20 •••••••••
www.wallpaper.com


[Edited to delete personal information]
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 03:18:18 PM by Chris Sanderson » Logged

Willem Rethmeier
www.willemrethmeier.com
Sydney Australia
Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2011, 03:21:57 PM »
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It's supply and demand... there will always be someone quite happy to do it at this price (or any price... or even no price).
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Rob C
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« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2011, 04:02:58 PM »
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There might even be an orderly queue.

;-(

Rob C
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2011, 04:17:54 PM »
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There are plenty of local photographers here who would line up for this one.

I get 4-5 requests each week who express outrage at my minimum charge and advise me I'll never make it here, go home, is my camera made of gold, and so forth.. and I'm sure my minimum is way below what most of you would work for.
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« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2011, 04:42:59 PM »
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At least it's "discreetly packaged" so no one knows you worked for them Tongue
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professorgb
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« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2011, 02:58:15 PM »
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Even in these times of proliferating cameras and low fees, this is unbelievable.  That's at least a week's work, and it involves a diverse set of skills.

I looked at their web site and now I understand why they pay so little.
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Kirk Gittings
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« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2011, 05:31:34 PM »
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just say "I work for hamburgers".
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Thanks,
Kirk

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pixjohn
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« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2011, 08:01:41 PM »
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How do you think they can make good salaries, they use slave photographers.  I would think the travel time around the city would cost that much.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2011, 08:59:56 PM »
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Even in these times of proliferating cameras and low fees, this is unbelievable.  That's at least a week's work, and it involves a diverse set of skills.

I looked at their web site and now I understand why they pay so little.

It's only a week's work if you have any desire/need to produce a quality product. I'm sure based on the level of pay offered that they will receive (and gladly accept) very mediocre work. From that stance a starving 1st year or 2nd year photo student with  could travel to and take half-assed photos at 8 locations in one day and would gladly accept their 250GBP.

You have to step outside of the role of photographer and think about the overall economic picture. If your business plan includes fighting for such low-end jobs where quality is not important you are surely doomed. High-end and medium-high-end photography are, from my vantage point (selling high-end camera systems) doing relatively well in the last 18 months while low-end and medium-low-end photography are utterly and without a doubt completely doomed to become a barely-scraping-by commodity occupation (if that is not already the case).

I think this is absolutely no different than any occupation which started with a technical  based barrier-to-entry at it's inception and has since become much easier to enter, but just as hard to be an expert. In the 90s you could make a small fortune just knowing HTML and basic server-setup. Now there are a million postings on several free-lance websites that offer 20 hour projects of web-programming for $200 - largely outsourced from India and the like. Does that mean that no one makes money in computer programming anymore? Heavens no; those with progressive skill sets and a good business mind can still make an extremely good living, but if you planned on making a living off of basic HTML and CSS then you're in for a rude awakening.

You must extend your skills and cliental past commodity skill requirements. Video, specialized equipment, specialized techniques (3D, video, scheimflug, compositing etc etc), unusual workflow efficiency, good use of next-gen advertising models like social media and email campaigns, extraordinary creativity, good old fashion people skills, all coupled with overall business savvy. Those are the people/business-models I see making lots of money right now - and trust me there are many making LOTS of money off of photography (more often than not they are names that have no public recognition whatsoever).

Of course I recognize that I, in actuality, know jack about any of this myself. My only knowledge is from a vantage point watching many of our customers and potential customers doing very well, and some not doing so well. So feel free to dismiss me as an armchair photo-business consultant - even though I feel I'm spot on.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2011, 10:14:09 PM »
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Doug,

I continue to be impressed by your ability to analyze and explain some of the important issues we professionals face today.

DC

www.dermotcleary.com
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fredjeang
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« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2011, 02:24:55 PM »
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It's only a week's work if you have any desire/need to produce a quality product. I'm sure based on the level of pay offered that they will receive (and gladly accept) very mediocre work. From that stance a starving 1st year or 2nd year photo student with  could travel to and take half-assed photos at 8 locations in one day and would gladly accept their 250GBP.

You have to step outside of the role of photographer and think about the overall economic picture. If your business plan includes fighting for such low-end jobs where quality is not important you are surely doomed. High-end and medium-high-end photography are, from my vantage point (selling high-end camera systems) doing relatively well in the last 18 months while low-end and medium-low-end photography are utterly and without a doubt completely doomed to become a barely-scraping-by commodity occupation (if that is not already the case).

I think this is absolutely no different than any occupation which started with a technical  based barrier-to-entry at it's inception and has since become much easier to enter, but just as hard to be an expert. In the 90s you could make a small fortune just knowing HTML and basic server-setup. Now there are a million postings on several free-lance websites that offer 20 hour projects of web-programming for $200 - largely outsourced from India and the like. Does that mean that no one makes money in computer programming anymore? Heavens no; those with progressive skill sets and a good business mind can still make an extremely good living, but if you planned on making a living off of basic HTML and CSS then you're in for a rude awakening.

You must extend your skills and cliental past commodity skill requirements. Video, specialized equipment, specialized techniques (3D, video, scheimflug, compositing etc etc), unusual workflow efficiency, good use of next-gen advertising models like social media and email campaigns, extraordinary creativity, good old fashion people skills, all coupled with overall business savvy. Those are the people/business-models I see making lots of money right now - and trust me there are many making LOTS of money off of photography (more often than not they are names that have no public recognition whatsoever).

Of course I recognize that I, in actuality, know jack about any of this myself. My only knowledge is from a vantage point watching many of our customers and potential customers doing very well, and some not doing so well. So feel free to dismiss me as an armchair photo-business consultant - even though I feel I'm spot on.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Phase One Partner of the Year
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National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
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I agree Doug.
Also, the art market in photography is having good time and prices are better or closer to painting. It's because it's not considered any more by the merchants as a secondary art but fully accepted as fine art. Each year, in the biggest art fairs there are more and more photographic works even in serious galleries that normally worked with painters.
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tcphoto1
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« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2011, 09:17:40 AM »
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Of course they have published over 90 guides, with content fee's so low they can keep rolling them out as fast as their little interns can edit images and write content. They are pitching their guides to business owners as an inexpensive marketing tool, selling ads and have little production costs. Personally, I would leave it to the housewives and students to shoot because they don't know about the value of images and they think that getting published alone is an honor.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2011, 09:51:55 AM »
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... I would leave it to the housewives and students to shoot because they don't know about the value of images...

The value of images is what the market says it is, and as of lately, that is not much.
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Slobodan

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fredjeang
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« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2011, 10:59:12 AM »
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The value of images is what the market says it is, and as of lately, that is not much.
Absolutly.
There is an overcrowded marketplace. With the incredible massification of photography and video, the access to basic editing for everyone and the diffusion facilities, the volume of "good enouh" and even "indeed good" pictures is such that the value is close to zero. An average pro now does not that much better than what you see in Flickr. In fact I even saw top images over the internet in non-pro websites made by week-end shooters. (if they will be able to reproduce such a level on a regular basis is another story I won't come in because I do not know)

But there is still a value, and a high one, on the top. Averageness is not possible any more for making a living because it's there for free. We need to work hard on reaching a unique look, and the plus that makes people want to call you. As Doug pointed with the html saga, it's the end where people could make a living with a few html and css stuff. But on the top of the programmers, they are paied very well beleive me. Also, the responsability aspect, the legal aspect.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 11:02:46 AM by fredjeang » Logged
Peter McLennan
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« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2011, 10:01:31 PM »
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I used to command a pretty good day rate.  Now, I work for sausage.  Really.  My neighbour makes the BEST garlic sausage, ever.  I take pictures of his kids, he gives me sausage.  Works out just fine.  Grin
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kand
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« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2011, 10:38:29 PM »
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It's only a week's work if you have any desire/need to produce a quality product. I'm sure based on the level of pay offered that they will receive (and gladly accept) very mediocre work. From that stance a starving 1st year or 2nd year photo student with  could travel to and take half-assed photos at 8 locations in one day and would gladly accept their 250GBP.

You have to step outside of the role of photographer and think about the overall economic picture. If your business plan includes fighting for such low-end jobs where quality is not important you are surely doomed. High-end and medium-high-end photography are, from my vantage point (selling high-end camera systems) doing relatively well in the last 18 months while low-end and medium-low-end photography are utterly and without a doubt completely doomed to become a barely-scraping-by commodity occupation (if that is not already the case).

I think this is absolutely no different than any occupation which started with a technical  based barrier-to-entry at it's inception and has since become much easier to enter, but just as hard to be an expert. In the 90s you could make a small fortune just knowing HTML and basic server-setup. Now there are a million postings on several free-lance websites that offer 20 hour projects of web-programming for $200 - largely outsourced from India and the like. Does that mean that no one makes money in computer programming anymore? Heavens no; those with progressive skill sets and a good business mind can still make an extremely good living, but if you planned on making a living off of basic HTML and CSS then you're in for a rude awakening.

You must extend your skills and cliental past commodity skill requirements. Video, specialized equipment, specialized techniques (3D, video, scheimflug, compositing etc etc), unusual workflow efficiency, good use of next-gen advertising models like social media and email campaigns, extraordinary creativity, good old fashion people skills, all coupled with overall business savvy. Those are the people/business-models I see making lots of money right now - and trust me there are many making LOTS of money off of photography (more often than not they are names that have no public recognition whatsoever).


The only thing is that they approached a top level photographer, not a second year student or similar.  This to me indicates they want very good work but are not willing to pay for it.

cheers

kand
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donaldt
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« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2011, 07:19:58 AM »
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come on guys
must be a typo missing an zero
no?
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2011, 10:41:50 AM »
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The only thing is that they approached a top level photographer, not a second year student or similar.  This to me indicates they want very good work but are not willing to pay for it.

Or it indicates that the cost in time/money to approach a photographer by email using a form-email with only the name changed is extremely low.

This is the pro business equivalent of junk email. Very likely they didn't even know who Willem was or what quality of work they could expect from him. Rather they likely emailed an entire database of photographer email addresses in a shotgun approach, compiled a list of those who responded with interest, and from that list browsed work to see who could produce the best work.

Also: just look at www.wallpaper.com to see what such cheapness buys you. It looks like they invest as much in web design as they do photography.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
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Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off
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Phase One IQ250 FAQ
rethmeier
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« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2011, 03:41:35 PM »
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To be honest,
they knew who I was.
She called me that night as well.
Regards,
Willem.
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Willem Rethmeier
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fredjeang
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« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2011, 04:03:10 PM »
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The other day I've lunch with a (big) top model and a stylist. She was telling the last offer she had for a 3 days shooting in the Bahamas for a big brand: 3000 euros ! (net price), they changed the photographer who was supposed to be ....(a big fish) for a young guy that they knew, had some relations and costs nothing.

Yesterday, I went pass a big mall with the sales. They had this 10meters ad on the outside and it was so hugly, so badly done. I know who is normaly the photographer who works for this brand, a very good one. Looking at that it could not be him. Then I phoned and they told me that "Y" does not work any more for them, too expensive.



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