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Author Topic: How can this be worth doing? NOT  (Read 12566 times)
Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2011, 04:08:38 PM »
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The other day I've lunch with a (big) top model and a stylist. She was telling the last offer she had for a 3 days shooting in the Bahamas for a big brand: 3000 euros ! (net price)...

Pardon my ignorance (of the industry), but is that too much or too little?

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Slobodan

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fredjeang
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« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2011, 04:12:57 PM »
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For the model involved, the budget and the brand it's a joke. It just depends. It could be a lot or very little.
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fredjeang
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« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2011, 04:37:30 PM »
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I  was having something to eat and back. Think that a top model carreer is very similar to a football player. It's a short carreer at the top. To give you an idea, a Gisele Bundchen "weights" 25 000 000 dollards revenues.
You can reasonably establish that an international top model average revenue is 5000000 euros/year. (from 2 to 30) This is the very top right? then...it goes down at the speed of light.
Most of the models are at 10euros/hour wich is the "smic" or "salario mínimo"

ps: I saw some sources that Bundchen would have make more than 30 000 000 in a year but I doubt about the seriousness of those sources and can confirm with confidence the 25 000 000 in a year.

In the industry here to a basic level, a commercial photographer (with study) can expect without being known about 2000 euros net/month. It climbs according to the reputation. One pic is about 2000-4000euros with a background, but hey, those are indicatives and it can fluctuates a lot.

Now with the "new economy" it's a mess.

The other day I've been giving 300euros per hour for a (really) boring stuff. I considered well paid for what it was. I only had to press the shutter. Then, I've been contacted by a record company to do a 5min movie with editing for 200euros in available light. I laughed at their face. I realised later that experienced videographers where cuying for the assignment. On the cheap it's a nightmare. Even if you are reasonably talented it's just imposible to do something that will not end into an horror. What do they do? Chromas and After effects with a kitch tint but it works. 2 days of editing and send in 720. No thanks.

The trap is that you can't use this material for your porfolio unless you want to ruin your chances but then your name can easily be associated to the cheap. You can't even enhance your skills. You loose in every aspects. Avoid those things. Better earning life doing something else and keep safe the photography, build a serious book away from the cheap.

As we say in french: c'est le bordel ! (it's the brothel=the mess)
« Last Edit: March 20, 2011, 05:19:00 PM by fredjeang » Logged
feppe
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« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2011, 05:21:11 PM »
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I  was having something to eat and back. Think that a top model carreer is very similar to a football player. It's a short carreer at the top. To give you an idea, a Gisele Bundchen "weights" 25 000 000 dollards revenues.
You can reasonably establish that an international top model average revenue is 5000000 euros/year. (from 2 to 30) This is the very top right? then...it goes down at the speed of light.
Most of the models are at 10euros/hour wich is the "smic" or "salario mínimo"

You hit the nail on the head. To continue the football analogy, Gisele and Adriana compare to Ronaldo and Messi, while mail catalog models are players deep in the divisions - and far more numerous. There are very few models who are worth seven figures, but they are the ones in the news and skew our perception of the business.

It's the same in many other industries, though.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2011, 05:44:49 PM »
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To be honest,
they knew who I was.
She called me that night as well.
Regards,
Willem.

That is indeed disturbing then.

Emailing a blind list of photographers in a database would be understandable - I liked when I could believe that guess at the background to your story. But calling up an ace and offering them that pittance seems just downright weird.

Out of curiosity how did the rest of that conversation go? Was she just swinging for the fences? Was it a low-ball opening offer with enough flexibility to make a more reasonable offer? Or did she just honestly expect that someone like you would even remotely consider that level of compensation?

Thanks for the clarification.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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rethmeier
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« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2011, 12:12:10 AM »
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Doug,
she asked me,if I could do it for 350 GBP and that's including expenses,like taxi etc.
There were 6 locations,probably 6 to 8 images per location.
I told ,I would make an exception and do it for 2000 GBP, as I assumed it would take me 2 days and a 1000 GBP is not bad for that sort of style of photography.

She said she could probably pay me 450 GBP.

I told her I had to decline the offer,

It makes you wonder.

Willem.
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Willem Rethmeier
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adammork
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« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2011, 03:55:26 AM »
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Or did she just honestly expect that someone like you would even remotely consider that level of compensation?

She sure did - we are talking about WALLPAPER here - they have had a HUGE impact of the world of design, architecture, Lifestyle and to some extend fashion here in Europe. Maybe not so much these day, but 5-10 years ago a designer/architect would give away their firstborn for a 3 line notice in the Wallpaper magazine - they could literally create a designer (not talking about fashion here, I don't have a clue about that) if the wanted. So they are a used to get everything for free or close to - I'm not saying it's right - it's not!! but that's the way it is.

at that time it had quite an edge over all other magazines, by a fair margin, in that genre - in the quality of layout and graphic's everybody looked at Wallpaper and what they did and what they said.

You may dislike the appearance of their website - but you can be sure of one thing - Wallpaper is not doing anything that's not hot - they was used to that they defined what was hot or not - they maybe still are to some extend to the broader mass.

The founder of Wallpaper created some years ago a new magazine Monocle, http://www.monocle.com, it all so have a great impact - it have more content and less surface.

The architectural magazine that is on the top amongst architects is at the moment Mark, www.mark-magazine.com they also have a very different approach to layout and content than the typical american architectural magazine.

It's maybe a cultural thing - and I'm not trying to open up the discussion on european vs. american architectural photography - not this time  Wink

Let me say it again - I'm very found of the idea that client's should pay real money for real work!

/adam

 
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asf
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« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2011, 08:56:10 AM »
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Mr. Mork is right.

But Wallpaper City Guides is not exactly Wallpaper Magazine, and likely has even less budget. Neither pays much for photos, esp the last few years. Nor does Monocle for that matter. Or any UK mag I'm aware of.
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rethmeier
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« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2011, 03:20:16 PM »
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I had some images published in Wallpaper ages ago and they actually paid an o.k page rate.
That's was when Tyler Brulee still owned it.
The problem one is LOFT.
Either they pay you peanuts for usage or after publication they cry poor and don't pay at all.
I'm still waiting for Invoices from 2007
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Willem Rethmeier
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2011, 07:43:58 PM »
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... Think that a top model carreer is very similar to a football player. It's a short carreer at the top. To give you an idea, a Gisele Bundchen "weights" 25 000 000 dollards revenues.
You can reasonably establish that an international top model average revenue is 5000000 euros/year. (from 2 to 30) This is the very top right? then...it goes down at the speed of light.
Most of the models are at 10euros/hour wich is the "smic" or "salary mínimo"...

Fred, I was looking into something else when I bumped into this statistic: in my lifetime, the Earth population has not only doubled, but almost tripled! That's the last 50 years of human existence, and there are more than four billion people MORE than there was 50 years ago. From 2.8 billion to seven!  That is one huge human inflation. Inflation of people means inflation of models and inflation of photographers too. Couple that with the fall of Soviet Union and the unrestricted access to all the millions of beautiful girls from the former Eastern Block, free to travel and model in the West, and you will understand the model inflation even better. That's the supply side.

On the demand side, however, not much has changed. There is only one spot at the top, no matter how wide the pyramid is at its base. There is only one #1. Now, as before, there are only two major fashion centers in the world: Paris and New York. Now, as before, there is only one Vogue and the handful of other high-end fashion magazines on the demand side. Add to this the new, digital technology that made almost everyone a photographer, and you would understand the inflation of photographers too. This is the disbalance of  supply and demand that is driving the huge payouts for those at the top of the pyramid, and "salarios minimos" at the bottom. And the "mess" is only getting bigger and bigger Wink
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Slobodan

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fredjeang
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« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2011, 02:59:59 AM »
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You hit a crucial point. This planet is absolutly overcrowded. It's a plague. If the human race is not able to control it's inflation this planet will become very soom unbearable and the race will be erased in a way or another.

In such numbers, the individual is reduced to nothing. Carreers have zero importance. I guess that the Chaplin intuition was in fact a prediction.

That has direct impact on the business itself and the rules and ways things are moving.

You can object that in the case of photography business, the population inflation is giving more volume but it does not happen that way because as you point there is a broken balance between supply-demand.

Yes indeed. The mess is getting bigger and bigger.
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PatrikR
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« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2011, 03:48:12 PM »
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Digital took a way the fear of failure of the films latent image.

So what's there left to know for it being a profession? Not much...
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Patrik Raski - Espoo, Finland
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« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2011, 04:15:13 PM »
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Digital took a way the fear of failure of the films latent image.

So what's there left to know for it being a profession? Not much...
I think this profession has to reinvent itself.
Digital brings new horizons and imagery that was impossible with film. Motion is not any more an option and new ways of displaying editorials and advertising will bring new needs.
Also I think that the legal aspect, the commitment with client will be more key than ever.
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Christoph C. Feldhaim
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« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2011, 05:07:50 PM »
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You hit a crucial point. This planet is absolutly overcrowded. It's a plague. If the human race is not able to control it's inflation this planet will become very soom unbearable and the race will be erased in a way or another.

Two planets meet:
Planet A: You look terrible. Whats up with you? Sick?
Planet B: The doctor said I have Homo Sapiens ...
Planet A: Don't worry! Thats just transient ....

 Tongue
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feppe
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« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2011, 05:44:33 PM »
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Two planets meet:
Planet A: You look terrible. Whats up with you? Sick?
Planet B: The doctor said I have Homo Sapiens ...
Planet A: Don't worry! Thats just transient ....

 Tongue

I'm not a misanthrope like most people seem to be here, but that made me lol.
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D_Clear
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« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2011, 09:20:05 PM »
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I had some images published in Wallpaper ages ago and they actually paid an o.k page rate.
That's was when Tyler Brulee still owned it.
The problem one is LOFT.
Either they pay you peanuts for usage or after publication they cry poor and don't pay at all.
I'm still waiting for Invoices from 2007


Editorial is editorial, if you choose to shoot that area of the market you have hopefully come to terms with the budgets. Hopefully you've given it some thought, rationalized the benefits against the low rates - and those benefits can be game changing if it's the right editorial and the timing in every photographer's career.

To admit you are still waiting for invoices from 2007 is more of a statement about how you run your business and the amount of intestinal fortitude you possess then it is about the publisher. If the publication agree they owe you those fees from 2007, I bet I could get it for you in two weeks, maybe less.

DC
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PatrikR
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« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2011, 01:29:50 AM »
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I think this profession has to reinvent itself.
Digital brings new horizons and imagery that was impossible with film. Motion is not any more an option and new ways of displaying editorials and advertising will bring new needs.
Also I think that the legal aspect, the commitment with client will be more key than ever.

The other problem is that photography is a very very popular hobby now. It's something people do for fun and the cost of producing an image no longer exists since all you need is a camera. Also most of the craft in our profession was donated away with the transition to digital. Darkroom was a "nasty" place and printing color was something that required very special skill and was quite time consuming to learn. It took years to have the skill to say how to correct a color print but almost everybody can perform such tasks in photoshop if there is even need for that anymore.

The science and secrets of our trade become common knowledge with the internet's tutorials, cheap digital cameras and hacked copies of Photoshop.

Nobody buys a guitar and immediately expect being a rock star while it seems that just owning a digital camera qualifies anybody being a professional.

Digital is wonderful but unfortunately it's way too cheap and easy. This aspect makes it a bad profession. When something is so easy why not do it yourself and besides it's not like vacuuming which also is easy but most people hate. The photography will probably be divided in to the very high end and to the low end where the careers do not matter.

Amateurs ask me all the time should they buy the new Canon L lens? Would it make them a better photographer. The kit lens is so poor and so on. This happens all the time. No matter where I go. There's camera crazyness everywhere and people invest a lot of money in to these systems. But I tell them as a professional I would check the bargain section. It makes no sense to bring 50.000 euros worth of gear to shoot a 200 euro assignment.

Atleast and exciting and very honest thread!
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Patrik Raski - Espoo, Finland
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« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2011, 04:00:02 PM »
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To admit you are still waiting for invoices from 2007 is more of a statement about how you run your business and the amount of intestinal fortitude you possess then it is about the publisher. If the publication agree they owe you those fees from 2007, I bet I could get it for you in two weeks, maybe less.

DC
www.dermotcleary.com

 
Do you have a legal team in Spain?
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asf
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« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2011, 04:09:35 PM »
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Amateurs ask me all the time should they buy the new Canon L lens? Would it make them a better photographer. The kit lens is so poor and so on. This happens all the time. No matter where I go. There's camera crazyness everywhere and people invest a lot of money in to these systems. But I tell them as a professional I would check the bargain section. It makes no sense to bring 50.000 euros worth of gear to shoot a 200 euro assignment.


On the bright side, I rarely rent backup bodies when shooting on location these days as half the people who stop to ask what we're filming or what equip I'm using have the same (or better) camera as I do. My asst asks them to hang around in case ours goes down ...
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D_Clear
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« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2011, 09:44:02 PM »
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Do you have a legal team in Spain?

Ah, I can see you have a wonderful gift for exaggeration.... Just to clarify - we are talking about a magazine invoice, not an investment bank collapse correct?

I am based in Toronto and have had to pursue payment on every continent, I have always been paid including unauthorized usage (hello Irish Guardian) and shocking as it may seem - without the benefit of a 'legal team'.

Any of us who do not properly paper our assignments with copyright license contingent on payment-in-full, are really not minding the store.

Dc

www.dermotcleary.com
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DC
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