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Author Topic: Thunderbolt (Lightpeak) Unveiled  (Read 28041 times)
Anders_HK
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« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2011, 08:22:42 AM »
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1.  So you really don't 'know' the notebook damaged the hard drive then since you're really not even sure why.  Why would you think this and not a run of defective hard drives which has been documented in the past.. there is also the chance of operator error.. someone 'thinks' a hard drive went bad, when it fact there was an issue with the OS or who knows what else..  Roll Eyes

2.  Well, how good do they say they are?  Mac's are as good as PC's I'm sure, after all they're using the exact same components.  I just don't believe that all Mac's are better than all PC's or that all PC's are better than all Mac's.

3.  I have several laptops with >2 years of heavy use.  Do they qualify to be the best?

4.  Can you tell me what's so "advanced" on your Mac over my PC Laptops?  And please don't say TB..  Wink

5.  Mac's run Windows more stable than PC's?  All PC's or just your hard drive eating machine?  You do realize I can't help but have some fun with these gross generalizations..  Grin

6.   I think you more than qualify to wear the Steve Job's sandals (with socks) and the gray turtleneck.. Heck, I think you should get the glasses too.   Cheesy

7.  Oh my.. I can't match you for 'facts', that's for sure..  Lips sealed

Ehh... ... Alright, let me politely and diligently put an end in this way:

SIR, in all respect but the above seem to demonstrate one thing: all you said in above posts IS complete B.S., CRAP and B.S. Period.

I will refrain from writing more to you, except... in regards to 1. it was verified by service centers of Fujitsu Korea and Fujitsu Hong Kong who both serviced that notebook multitude of times and they replaced also main board and more. I did have two HDDs in that notebook (which they said it was designed for, with their kit). Also the HDD fabricator said it was impossible for HDD to damage itself or computer, thus leaves the notebook. Regrettably Fujitsu themselves failed to admit and failed to replace the notebook. And SIR I do know how to use a computer proper, as stated I am an Engineer. Oh, when on PC I reinstalled all software every three months to keep problems away... not so with my Mac. No need, ever. And add: todays Mac are far exceed quality of PCs. Actually around 12-15 years ago I did have a Mac portable, it died when display gave up per say... or else that one was flawless without problems also...

Do try a Mac, you may become wiser (sadly took me long to realize  Grin). Best of luck.

Regards
A
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 08:27:47 AM by Anders_HK » Logged
PierreVandevenne
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« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2011, 09:43:53 AM »
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Monitors are a good point.. but then my 20 year old DVI connector has been doing that okay.. And if HDMI is already 10gbps.. why not just use that?
 so how much power can TB/LP put out.. and is it enough to power more than 1-2 devices? 

DVI has been designed in 1999 - but I know this looks like an eternity. But if you want to run a 30" monitor at 2560x1600, you need a dual link DVI cable. The key feature of Lightpeak is that it is just a link, with silicon logic that does the protocol translation. That means that you can run multiple different devices with their native drivers transparently. The spec gives 10W as far as power is concerned. A SSD drive like the Intel G25 needs something like 150mw in use. A 2.5 inch hard drive needs around 2W, maybe peaking a bit above that in an external enclosure. Monitors, of course, require much more than that.
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PierreVandevenne
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« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2011, 09:52:34 AM »
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I have 4-5 Macs and about a dozen PCs. There really isn't that much difference. PC vs Mac wars don't really deserve attention. AFAIC, if I want a really powerful machine, I build a custom PC.  If I want a laptop that resumes almost instantly when I open it. I go for Mac. But that's just me, and features that are important to me. In recent years, I've had 3 machines go down on me for one reason of another: two of them were Macs (defective display in a iMac, dead motherboard in a 17" MacBook Pro, blown capacitors in one PC). But I certainly wouldn't describe my experience as statistically meaningful.
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John.Murray
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« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2011, 10:17:42 AM »
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Gemmtech:  The Displayport I/F supports HDMI (simple adapter) including audio
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feppe
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« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2011, 11:02:10 AM »
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HDCP is a non issue for me. The only time I was slightly annoyed with it was when I couldn't connect an older high res beamer to a DVI/HDMI cable because the protocol wasn't supported. Other than that, it may add a few bucks in licensing here and there, but prices have been dropping so dramatically anyway...

The link I provided earlier shows that you won't be able to output analog at all in the near future unless you circumvent copy "protection" - which might be illegal depending on your jurisdiction (it most likely is in the entire US due to DMCA). Even if you don't need to connect to legacy devices and don't have issues with HDCP doesn't mean no one does. HDCP adds another layer of unnecessary complexity resulting in unexplained connection issues, breaks backward compatibility, and adds cost.

But most importantly: what benefit do consumers get from HDCP? Most likely absolutely nothing.
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kers
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« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2011, 11:49:49 AM »
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Apple is strange, add "Thunderbolt" but No HDMI, No Bluray, No CF slot, obviously Thunderbolt will probably take off someday, but right now are there any devices with this interface?   I'm sure we will have HDs with it soon, but CF have been used for many years!  And no flash on my Iphone  Sad   

Finally Quadcore CPUs, wow, it's about time.
The idea is 'Thunderbolt' can be anything just by using an adapter as i understand. At last one plug that does it all!
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« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2011, 02:01:07 PM »
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Gemmtech:  The Displayport I/F supports HDMI (simple adapter) including audio

I realize that, but you always have to buy an adapter with Apple or a card reader or something.  I just wish Apple were more open architecture and I wish they went more mainstream.  I do like their products, though I would never buy a Mac Pro because as stated many times before, the most powerful and least expensive route is to build your own. 
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John.Murray
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« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2011, 04:18:24 PM »
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Wink  I understand  - but try as they might, they just couldn't get a VGA, Dual-Link DVI and HDMI interface to fit on the side of a laptop.  Instead, those unthinking jerks at apple went with a mini-display port connector that, as of yesterday, just so happens to support so much more . . . .
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Craig Lamson
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« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2011, 05:47:22 PM »
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Wink  I understand  - but try as they might, they just couldn't get a VGA, Dual-Link DVI and HDMI interface to fit on the side of a THEIR laptop.  Instead, those unthinking jerks at apple went with a mini-display port connector that, as of yesterday, just so happens to support so much more . . . .

Fixed your quote...
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PierreVandevenne
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« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2011, 06:07:53 PM »
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The link I provided earlier shows that you won't be able to output analog at all in the near future unless you circumvent copy "protection" - which might be illegal depending on your jurisdiction (it most likely is in the entire US due to DMCA). Even if you don't need to connect to legacy devices and don't have issues with HDCP doesn't mean no one does. HDCP adds another layer of unnecessary complexity resulting in unexplained connection issues, breaks backward compatibility, and adds cost.
But most importantly: what benefit do consumers get from HDCP? Most likely absolutely nothing.

The disappearance of analog outputs is a non-issue for me, but I understand it can be an issue for some people. In practice, I do agree with you that HDCP has no direct benefit whatsoever for the customer. But after spending 4000 EUR in the 1990s for good 21 inch CRTs, Matrox cards and other similar stuff, I can't help thinking that the downward price spiral more than compensates for new minorl inconveniences.

I used the term "direct benefit" intentionally because imho the existence of HDCP was what initially allowed content to be made available (a clear indirect benefit). Likewise, Apple's DRM on music was technically a complete joke. Yet, it is what finally decided content providers to join the fiesta. We always have the feeling that those technical restrictions have a big negative potential. In theory, they have, but competition keeps them in check and  they allow a smoother transition to the next paradigms by reassuring content providers.

A somewhat perverse view, granted. ;-0
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2011, 11:05:51 PM »
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Ehh... ... Alright, let me politely and diligently put an end in this way:

SIR, in all respect but the above seem to demonstrate one thing: all you said in above posts IS complete B.S., CRAP and B.S. Period.

I will refrain from writing more to you, except... in regards to 1. it was verified by service centers of Fujitsu Korea and Fujitsu Hong Kong who both serviced that notebook multitude of times and they replaced also main board and more. I did have two HDDs in that notebook (which they said it was designed for, with their kit). Also the HDD fabricator said it was impossible for HDD to damage itself or computer, thus leaves the notebook. Regrettably Fujitsu themselves failed to admit and failed to replace the notebook. And SIR I do know how to use a computer proper, as stated I am an Engineer. Oh, when on PC I reinstalled all software every three months to keep problems away... not so with my Mac. No need, ever. And add: todays Mac are far exceed quality of PCs. Actually around 12-15 years ago I did have a Mac portable, it died when display gave up per say... or else that one was flawless without problems also...

Do try a Mac, you may become wiser (sadly took me long to realize  Grin). Best of luck.

Regards
A

1.   You'll have to excuse me, as an engineer I'm sure you understand the concept of GIGO..  Grin

2.   I can't believe a hard drive manufacturer would tell you it's impossible for a hard drive to fail.  Well.. okay, I can.  I just don't believe anyone would believe them.

3.   Perhaps because it really wasn't the computer?  And you still don't know exactly what failed or how do you?  You have a theory and that's the basis of your entire rant on the notebook.  Got it.

4.   You really don't think you being an engineer means you know ANYTHING about computers do you?  Other than maybe programs you use in your specific field of engineering?  Are you a computer engineer?  Electronics engineer?  Software engineer?  Anything at all related to the topic.. or do you build roads and bridges?

5.  You tend to grossly generalize, as you did about Mac's exceeding the quality of PC's.  An electronics/software/computer engineer wouldn't do this.  Sure, Mac's exceed the quality of some PC's, but it's really a case by case model by model comparison of the internal components.. unless you're talking style or build.. and then I'll give you Mac's have more style and in many cases a better build quality, but by no means all..
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 11:15:07 PM by Steve Weldon » Logged

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John.Murray
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« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2011, 11:09:13 PM »
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I'm astonished about how news about a new external bus interface brings up comments about Digital Rights Management and "Copy Protection".  I still fail to understand the relationship, other than, being a conduit of DRM'd content.

I personally have no problem with DRM, and also understand the fact the it doesn't necessarilly benefit consumers.  HDCP is *not* there for your "benefit"; it's there to protect the content providers.  Things have come a long way from the Sony Betamax court decision and it's introduction (and subsequent whoring) of the terms "fair use" and copies for personal use.  The fact remains that digital copies are perfect.

Tell ya what?  Whats stops you, Micheal, Jeff, or any of the other amazingly talented people from just sharing your original digital content, unaltered, for us to enjoy?  What if there was a way to actually do that, without giving the audience the ability to duplicate and subsequently re-distribute with out permission?  Thats precisely what is happening when you watch HD content.  I for one love the quality of the experience.....

Now, back to benefitting consumers......  everybody remember CD's?  Perfect copies......  Now look at whats available, especially alternative forms of music (classical for me) - it's gone wayyyyyyy downhill!  Music distribution has degraded to lo-fi mp3 and itunes content, we've lost both quality and selection.  So much for fair use......
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2011, 11:11:16 PM »
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DVI has been designed in 1999 - but I know this looks like an eternity. But if you want to run a 30" monitor at 2560x1600, you need a dual link DVI cable. The key feature of Lightpeak is that it is just a link, with silicon logic that does the protocol translation. That means that you can run multiple different devices with their native drivers transparently. The spec gives 10W as far as power is concerned. A SSD drive like the Intel G25 needs something like 150mw in use. A 2.5 inch hard drive needs around 2W, maybe peaking a bit above that in an external enclosure. Monitors, of course, require much more than that.

All good points.  10 watts is indeed a decent amount of power, but you need to look at peak power draw in which case most SSD's are in the 5-7watt range and a regular hard drive (2.5 inch) up to 10 watts..  But maybe the 10 watts it supplies isn't a peak rating either.  I'll need to look at this more closely.

I've done some more reading on LR since this thread started and it does seem to be an impressive interface.  Though, I still wish that just once.. we'd see the devices/computers/software all happen in a reasonable amount of time, and not take years to implement.

1999?  Ya, it does seem like forever.. The last time I used VGA on a desktop was with a CRT.. its fun to go back and look at when different technologies impacted our lives.
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2011, 11:21:28 PM »
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1.   You'll have to excuse me, as an engineer I'm sure you understand the concept of GIGO..  Grin

2.   I can't believe a hard drive manufacturer would tell you it's impossible for a hard drive to fail.  Well.. okay, I can.  I just don't believe anyone would believe them.

3.   Perhaps because it really wasn't the computer?  And you still don't know exactly what failed or how do you?  You have a theory and that's the basis of your entire rant on the notebook.  Got it.

4.   You really don't think you being an engineer means you know ANYTHING about computers do you?  Other than maybe programs you use in your specific field of engineering?  Are you a computer engineer?  Electronics engineer?  Software engineer?  Anything at all related to the topic.. or do you build roads and bridges?

5.  You tend to grossly generalize, as you did about Mac's exceeding the quality of PC's.  An electronics/software/computer engineer wouldn't do this.  Sure, Mac's exceed the quality of some PC's, but it's really a case by case model by model comparison of the internal components.. unless you're talking style or build.. and then I'll give you Mac's have more style and in many cases a better build quality, but by no means all..


Steve,

There is no point in me repeating what I have already stated above. However, do please take strong note that it is incorrect and offensive of you stating assumptions of my person or the case I had with that notebook and more of which you obvious know absolute nothing about. Thank you.
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Gemmtech
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« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2011, 03:42:47 AM »
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I understand  - but try as they might, they just couldn't get a VGA, Dual-Link DVI and HDMI interface to fit on the side of a laptop.  Instead, those unthinking jerks at apple went with a mini-display port connector that, as of yesterday, just so happens to support so much more . . . .

I have several large screens LCD/LED TVs as do my brothers and I can't find a single display port connector on any of them, none on the Sonys, Samsungs or LGs.
Excuse me, display port connector supports so much more?  Which Monitors and or TVs does display port support that HDMI or DVI don't?  There are many monitors that don't have a display port connector.  I know, I know, buy an adapter!
 
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feppe
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« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2011, 07:15:57 AM »
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I'm astonished about how news about a new external bus interface brings up comments about Digital Rights Management and "Copy Protection".  I still fail to understand the relationship, other than, being a conduit of DRM'd content.

I personally have no problem with DRM, and also understand the fact the it doesn't necessarilly benefit consumers.  HDCP is *not* there for your "benefit"; it's there to protect the content providers.  Things have come a long way from the Sony Betamax court decision and it's introduction (and subsequent whoring) of the terms "fair use" and copies for personal use.  The fact remains that digital copies are perfect.

Tell ya what?  Whats stops you, Micheal, Jeff, or any of the other amazingly talented people from just sharing your original digital content, unaltered, for us to enjoy?  What if there was a way to actually do that, without giving the audience the ability to duplicate and subsequently re-distribute with out permission?  Thats precisely what is happening when you watch HD content.  I for one love the quality of the experience.....

Now, back to benefitting consumers......  everybody remember CD's?  Perfect copies......  Now look at whats available, especially alternative forms of music (classical for me) - it's gone wayyyyyyy downhill!  Music distribution has degraded to lo-fi mp3 and itunes content, we've lost both quality and selection.  So much for fair use......

Now it's you, sir, who's taking the discussion on a tangent. HDCP and DRM are very relevant to Thunderbold discussion: as I pointed out, HDCP does not protect content providers, never has, never will. It is a speedbump to casual copyright infringers, a non-issue to professional pirates, an inconvenience to regular customers, and it turns people who need to use legacy hardware or otherwise circumvent HDCP for perfectly legitimate reasons into criminals.

It has been natural that each technological step takes us forward in convenience and quality - but in a brave new world that's not the case anymore.
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2011, 08:02:53 AM »
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Steve,

There is no point in me repeating what I have already stated above. However, do please take strong note that it is incorrect and offensive of you stating assumptions of my person or the case I had with that notebook and more of which you obvious know absolute nothing about. Thank you.
No offense was meant and I really don't understand why you would be offended.  I only know what you stated in your posts.  Based on the information you provided it's apparent Fuji didn't agree with you any more than I do about your laptop being a 'hard drive' killer.  You're the one who brought up being an engineer as a way to support your statement, like I was supposed to believe you based not on the information you provided.. but because you told me you're an engineer.  The logic of this is as flawed as your generalizations.

The Mac vs. Pc debate can only be good natured and fun.. it's obvious to anyone familiar with both products, that on the component level they couldn't be any more the same.  And even at different levels of power/capability reliable function is the same.  A $600 laptop tends to be every bit as reliable (electronically) as a $3000 laptop.  Modern electronics are great, and a manufacturer can't afford to put out poor products on any level.  Sure, there are bad runs (hard drives especially because they have mechanical components), but bad runs happen at all price points.

So please don't be offended.  After all, it's not like I told you your entire post was 'COMPLETE BS., CRAP, and B.S. Period', that would be just plain rude, crass, and uncalled for in a civil discussion.  The only thing more rude than that, would be the same person turning around and then claiming they were the offended party..  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2011, 08:17:03 AM »
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So please don't be offended.  After all, it's not like I told you your entire post was 'COMPLETE BS., CRAP, and B.S. Period', that would be just plain rude, crass, and uncalled for in a civil discussion.  The only thing more rude than that, would be the same person turning around and then claiming they were the offended party..  Roll Eyes

You just won the internet.
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DeeJay
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« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2011, 08:39:17 AM »
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Firstly, I think Thunderbolt is a stupid name. Lightpeak was so much better.

Secondly, I'm peeved that I won't be able to fit a TB Card to my 3 week old Mac Pro as I understand you need a whole new motherboard.

Blu-Ray won't ever come to corperation Mac, it defeats the purpose of buying movies on iTunes. HDMI won't for the same reason because of Apple TV.

It's a forward thinking, but odd way move to put tech in so new that there aren't even any peripherials as yet.






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« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2011, 10:06:29 AM »
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HDMI won't for the same reason because of Apple TV.

Wait, what? Macs don't have HDMI outs?

It's a forward thinking, but odd way move to put tech in so new that there aren't even any peripherials as yet.

Perfectly normal, exactly the way USB2 was rolled out, and same status as USB3 right now.
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