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Author Topic: Rodenstok 32 mm or Shneider 35 mm for new Alpa 12 STC  (Read 9253 times)
dkaufman
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« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2011, 04:51:16 PM »
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To Jim,
I am very happy with the M-Line Two. I use the groundglass for focusing all the time in conjunction with printed depth of field tables I carry (but most of the time with wide angle lenses you are shooting beyond hyperfocal  distances, even with a very small circle of confusion, one suitable for giant enlargements). I use a Hoodman 3x LCD viewer which gets me very close to focus and then an 8x Nikon loupe which gets me exactly where I want to be. The ground glass is very accurate but the gearing for movement even at 20 to 1 should be finer. It takes very tiny adjustments with a 32mm lens to move from infinity to one metre. Nevertheless I never have out of focus images. Sometimes infinity is not really in focus when I want it to be but that is probably an error on my part on where I choose to focus when shooting buildings within a few hundred feet or close. Of course, I remove the groundglass to mount the back, and one must be careful.
To Chris and others, even though the back element of the 32mm lens is close to the ground glass, it's the internal design that counts. The actual flange to focal distance is 69mm just about the same as for the 40HR lens. The 32mm lens give nearly the quality of the 40HR lens (which is a fantastic lens) and improves a lot with a bit of sharpening. The only problem is that it falls off slightly faster near the image circle. But still you are working with a 90mm image circle which is very good for a 32mm lens. I also use the Schneider 47mm lens which has a much bigger image circle but has many more issues about two-thirds of the way out. In contrast, the HR lenses, both 40 and 32 retain most of their quality until you come within 10mm of the image circle, the 32mm being a little poorer than the 40HR, which is really a great lens. Both lenses have "moustache shaped" distortion, about double the amount in the 32mm compared to the 40mmHR, but the Alpa lens correction software is really good. I am regularly creating 80megapixel images from two stitched Phase 40+ images, always shifted up (for building rise) and always shifted left and right between 14 and 22mm, and both HR lenses perform admirably. If image circle intrudes on extreme shifts, one can always point the camera up and do a perspective correction in software.
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gazwas
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« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2011, 05:18:14 PM »
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I also use the Schneider 47mm lens which has a much bigger image circle but has many more issues about two-thirds of the way out.

What sort of issues do you encounter with the schneider?
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dkaufman
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« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2011, 05:34:35 PM »
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Heavy colour cast and some loss of resolution about two thirds of the way out in the image cirle. It's only very significant if you are regularly using large shifts as I do (20mm for a two or three image stitched photo using a Phase 40+back) and could be signifcant with a full format back (Phase or Hasselblad or Leaf 60 or 80 Megapixel) with more moderate shifting. The colour cast is fairly easy to correct with software; the impact of loss of resolution depends on the image.
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haefnerphoto
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« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2011, 08:12:37 PM »
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Now I'm getting worried.  Does this banding occur when using these wide lenses on a shift that most AP's would use to photograph a building?  I own a P45 and Phase 1 is going to give me double what it's worth as a trade in for the IQ180 but if I'm going to run into problems like this it might not be worth it.  Perhaps Doug Peterson can shed some light on this situation?  On another thread I'm told that the 32mm Rodenstock exhibits mustache distortion, that doesn't thrill me either, anyone else have that problem?  At least I'm told I will be able to focus and compose thru the Arca M2 ground glass, that's a relief!!  Jim
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dkaufman
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« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2011, 09:17:47 PM »
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Jim,
I wasn't trying to alarm you! On technical and view cameras, with wide angle lenses, colour casts occur because of the varying angle at which light strikes the pixel wells, and all manufacturers have software solutions involving shooting a second image through a piece of translucent plastic to create a custom profile which is combined with the image in Raw processing to eliminate the colour casts. The solution works fairly well, although is not perfect and may still require a bit of fine tuning on the final image. I mentioned the 47mm Schneider as a lens that has particularly strong colour casts because of its design, but they are mostly correctable as well. All lenses have distortions. The 32mm Rodenstock, whcih is a very good lens, has a high degree of distortion because of its design but this is also correctable through software. None of these problems are so serious as to dissuade one from using this equipment; simply more work is required to create the finsihed image. Using a MFB on a view camera or technical camera is not the same as shooting with a medium format camera or DSLR. It's slower and has its own set of issues, but the results are incomparable for architecture and other work requiring high quality and image manipulation.
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haefnerphoto
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« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2011, 10:03:27 PM »
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Jim,
I wasn't trying to alarm you! On technical and view cameras, with wide angle lenses, colour casts occur because of the varying angle at which light strikes the pixel wells, and all manufacturers have software solutions involving shooting a second image through a piece of translucent plastic to create a custom profile which is combined with the image in Raw processing to eliminate the colour casts. The solution works fairly well, although is not perfect and may still require a bit of fine tuning on the final image. I mentioned the 47mm Schneider as a lens that has particularly strong colour casts because of its design, but they are mostly correctable as well. All lenses have distortions. The 32mm Rodenstock, whcih is a very good lens, has a high degree of distortion because of its design but this is also correctable through software. None of these problems are so serious as to dissuade one from using this equipment; simply more work is required to create the finsihed image. Using a MFB on a view camera or technical camera is not the same as shooting with a medium format camera or DSLR. It's slower and has its own set of issues, but the results are incomparable for architecture and other work requiring high quality and image manipulation.

The color casts don't really bother me, I've done the correction many times when I used to shoot a H25 on my 4x5.  The mustache distortion is more troubling and I'm not familiar with the Alpa software, doesn't C1 have a correction for this?  Also, you mentioned that you focus then put the back on the camera, why don't you use a sliding back?  Perhaps next week I'll journey to Atlanta to test both Arca's and figure this out.  Thanks, Jim
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gazwas
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« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2011, 02:53:45 AM »
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The color casts don't really bother me, I've done the correction many times when I used to shoot a H25 on my 4x5.  The mustache distortion is more troubling and I'm not familiar with the Alpa software, doesn't C1 have a correction for this?  Also, you mentioned that you focus then put the back on the camera, why don't you use a sliding back?  Perhaps next week I'll journey to Atlanta to test both Arca's and figure this out.  Thanks, Jim

I would say the light fall off and the distortion are a trade off with using view/tech cameras with movements but there are solutions to correct most if not all of those issues. The more worrying issue for me is the one I linked to in the above Phase KB articles. If the lenses, be them Rodenstock or Schneider create the vertical lines because of the microlenses in the the latest sensors with movements normally associated with AP then these obviously can't be removed by software.
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Christopher
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« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2011, 03:10:27 AM »
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Well I can't speak for the Schneider glass, I have never seen anything like it from Rodenstock. No matter if I shift a little or all the way to the end of the image circle. Which might come from the different lens design, which gives more space between lens back and sensor.
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adammork
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« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2011, 07:10:11 AM »
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Now I'm getting worried.  Does this banding occur when using these wide lenses on a shift that most AP's would use to photograph a building?  I own a P45 and Phase 1 is going to give me double what it's worth as a trade in for the IQ180 but if I'm going to run into problems like this it might not be worth it.

that's my worries to - Phase have a really decent trade in for my A75, but as it seems now, nobody will have the chance to test the iQ180 on a technical camera before you have to sign up for the deal before 31.03.2010

I can only too easily remember the pain when I got my first Aptus 75 and it shows heavy centerfold.
It took 24 month before I had a back with no obvious centerfold. Leaf was helpful and in good faith on this problem, but it took a lot of testing and wasted time before we found a good sensor. Leaf Capture could correct the centerfold in most cases but not all, and you had to turn the light fall of adjustment up to 100% leaving the the file quite flat.

Well I can't speak for the Schneider glass, I have never seen anything like it from Rodenstock.
I have seen those lines on Schneiders AND Rodenstocks when shifting too far. 

It was the same thing thing with the centerfold issue, some saw it, some did not.... it varied a lot from back to back.

So that's why I'm a bit scared about sensor problems with wide angels and shift - and 10mm of shift on a 35mm is not a lot in my world....

I do hope that phase enable some of the demo iQ180 for technical cameras, before I have to make a decision about the trade in, that are indeed very tempting, but on top also means two new mac pro's for the studio as well....

I know that there will be workarounds like, don't shift more than 8-10 millimeters and then correct in post - but, when I use my Alpa's I simply love to compose the image, apply the necessary amount of shift so I get that precise view of what I want to show of the building - no cropping, no perspective correction, no correction for CA, no distortion correction, (except for the 23mm Rodenstock, and I would like not to make that list any longer) in the post production

I like to choose the right light, make the final composition in the camera, make the exposer, move on to the next the image - the feeling of creating a beautiful images with a beautiful tool, I like that, a lot!

From a business point of view, then I should leave my Alpa's at home and only bring the Canon with the new 17+24mm shift's - they are good! and I can make 20-50% more images per day, which is not an unimportant feature in todays economically climate, but I miss the feeling of creating an images with the Canon, with them I'm just operating a camera taking a photograph - with the Alpa's I'm creating one. I know it's all in my head  Wink

So Phase; because the iQ180 is really so close in many fields - please tell me that I can shift the full image circle without any banding or centerfold or other abnormalities, and you get my money - a lot of them....

/adam

 
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PaulT
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« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2011, 08:02:35 AM »
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I think if you want to shift a lot at f8 you will need a Centerfilter with both lenses. If you want to use it f11-f16 the Rodenstock might work quite well without any centerfilter. I have the 32 and love it. However, there is one important point! You have to handle it with extrem care. So it certainly is not a lens for handholding or walking around.

In the End I would say that if you only want one lens, I would go with the Schneider 35 or even look at the Schneider 43 (Or Rodenstock HR40W)


Why? Is it fragile???
« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 08:05:54 AM by PaulT » Logged
ChristopherBarrett
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« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2011, 09:22:32 AM »
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Also notable is that the aforementioned lines haven't always shown up.  I think the effect is somewhat dependent upon the contrast of the scene.  Despite all this, I have good faith in the Schneider 35 and use it frequently.  Here is a stitched image from the P65+ I did a couple weeks ago.  I shifted the back of the Rm3d fully in both directions (15mm each way).  I cropped the final image to suit my composition.  One of the issues I ran into was that towards the edge of the image circle this lens exhibits more vignetting than the LCC can correct... so yeah a CenterFilter is advisable.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 09:28:15 AM by CBarrett » Logged
adammork
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« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2011, 09:38:24 AM »
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Also notable is that the aforementioned lines haven't always shown up.  I think the effect is somewhat dependent upon the contrast of the scene.  Despite all this, I have good faith in the Schneider 35 and use it frequently.  Here is a stitched image from the P65+ I did a couple weeks ago.  I shifted the back of the Rm3d fully in both directions (15mm each way).  I cropped the final image to suit my composition.  One of the issues I ran into was that towards the edge of the image circle this lens exhibits more vignetting than the LCC can correct... so yeah a CenterFilter is advisable.


.... but you can be sure that lines shows when you have "the perfect" light  Wink

The center filter on the 35mm starts vignetting when shifted 17mm on the "small" sensor A75, and this is the a hard type of "mechanical"? vignetting - I simply don't use it any more, but Leaf Capture have always been good to deal with vignetting.

/adam
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haefnerphoto
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« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2011, 10:00:47 AM »
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Also notable is that the aforementioned lines haven't always shown up.  I think the effect is somewhat dependent upon the contrast of the scene.  Despite all this, I have good faith in the Schneider 35 and use it frequently.  Here is a stitched image from the P65+ I did a couple weeks ago.  I shifted the back of the Rm3d fully in both directions (15mm each way).  I cropped the final image to suit my composition.  One of the issues I ran into was that towards the edge of the image circle this lens exhibits more vignetting than the LCC can correct... so yeah a CenterFilter is advisable.


Chris, Have you ever experienced the banding (lines)?  Jim
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ChristopherBarrett
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« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2011, 10:14:06 AM »
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Yes, on the Schneider and Rodenstock 35mm's.  But not consistently.... weird.  I've seen it maybe two or three times and switched to the Canon to get the shot.  Not very reassuring, but it's been rare enough for me that I remain comfortable with my systems.  I shoot 80% of my work with the 43mm and I never have this issue with that focal length.  If the Rodenstock 32 is retrofocus (and the lens has a greater distance from the sensor) I would definitely think about going that route.
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yaya
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« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2011, 11:12:29 AM »
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The 1st One is a Schneider 43mm shot on a Linhof Techno (on a tripod) with 10mm rise, Aptus-II 12 @ f8

The 2nd One is a Rodenstock 40mm shot on an ALPA STC (handheld sideways) with 8mm rise, AFi-II 12 @ f8

The 3rd One is a Schneider 35mm shot on a Cambo WRS (handheld) with 11mm rise, Aptus-II 12R @ f8 1/3

« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 12:18:35 PM by yaya » Logged

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adammork
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« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2011, 02:06:25 PM »
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Yair,

thank's for the images, could you please also share some files that shows shift's outside the 8-11mm range where you use the full image circle of the 35mm Schneider, black corners are ok!

And if it's not to much to ask for, and it could be this time of the year Wink please be a shoot that includes a clear blue sky, in strong light, a bit like the images shown in the start of this thread from phase one's KB.

Thanks a lot in advance.

Adam
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yaya
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« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2011, 03:03:07 PM »
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Yair,

thank's for the images, could you please also share some files that shows shift's outside the 8-11mm range where you use the full image circle of the 35mm Schneider, black corners are ok!

And if it's not to much to ask for, and it could be this time of the year Wink please be a shoot that includes a clear blue sky, in strong light, a bit like the images shown in the start of this thread from phase one's KB.

Thanks a lot in advance.

Adam

Hi Adam, I'll be in Utrecht (Holland) Sun-Tue and the weather there usually is as dim as here in London but I'll have the WRS with me so hopefully I'll be able to get something from it:-)

yair
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adammork
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« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2011, 03:32:06 PM »
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Thanks Yair! Acording to WeatherPro you could be lucky on tuesday - no pressure  Wink
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gazwas
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« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2011, 04:21:21 PM »
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And the Schneider 43XL with a good dose of movement if you get chance Yair as the 43 is a newer design than the 35 and it would be good to know how it performs with 80mp.  Grin


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« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2011, 02:24:54 AM »
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And the Schneider 43XL with a good dose of movement if you get chance Yair as the 43 is a newer design than the 35 and it would be good to know how it performs with 80mp.  Grin

From Michael's roof terrace; Arca-Swiss Rm2D, Schneider 43mm at f8 1/3, full 15mm Right+Left shift and stitched. Slightly cropped and vignette added in post
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