Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: [1] 2 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Which Calebration Tools are Best?  (Read 9316 times)
Noble Dean
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10


« on: June 21, 2005, 10:37:24 PM »
ReplyReply

Thank you Jonathan and Mark for your response.  I'm a champagne photographer with a beer budget so obviously I'm looking to keep costs as low as possible.  On the other hand I only plan to do this once.  A basic Spyder 2 can be found for about $140 and ColourEyes for $175 for a total outlay of about $350 once all the extra charges are tack on.
I'm pleased to hear that some people are doing Ok with the Spyder. There have been critical comments by some member on other questions in this forum.  Some of those comments seem to be more directed at the software provided with the Spyder rather than the hardware.  Thus I am tempted to move to ColorEyes rather than spend more on spyder software and perhaps not be happy.  Is that a viable option or is it like installing a Grand Prix engine in a Volkswagon.

Obviously I am looking for the best bang for my buck and I don't want to buy something only to find that for a few dollars more I could have gotten significantly better results.  $900 to $1000 more however is out of the question.

Noble
Logged
jackbingham
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 206


WWW
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2005, 08:09:12 AM »
ReplyReply

Coloreyes is $325.00 including the XRite DTP-94 which is the same as the Monaco XR.
Logged

Jack Bingham
Integrated Color Corp Makers of Coloreyes Display
Mark D Segal
Contributor
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7044


WWW
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2005, 06:56:55 AM »
ReplyReply

I agree completely. These exhorbitant brokerage fees to stamp a piece of paper in a customs office is a racket by no other name. Something should be done about it - but it is Government process that sets us up for this kind of skinning and only the Government could step in to fix it if anyone in Ottawa were the least bit interested - which you can sure they are not.

Now back to monitor calibration - if you live in the Toronto area it could be of interest to know that Vistek (496 Queen St. East, near Sumach/River Street) is holding a seminar on Wednesday June 29th from 9 to 10 in the morning on monitor profiling - the guest speaker is Jack Bingham of Integrated-Color - the developers of ColoreEyes software. It should be good, and it is free - to register go to www.vistek.ca/procentre and pull down the menu for seminars - you can do on-line registration. Places for these things fill quickly.
Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
PhotoArchivist
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 9


« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2005, 09:05:51 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Noble - this is very good news for Canadians. When I checked the Vistek website several days ago I saw a couple of other Integrated Color products offered, but I did not see this particular bundle in their listings - but now that you have checked with them and confirm they have it at that price, you can't go wrong. This is one of those rare instances when a Canadian price in Cdn dollars is a reasonably close match to a US price + shipping converted to Cdn. Cheers for Vistek this time!

Bernard - the technical information I have been able to digest and the profiling routine the software takes you through seems to indicate quite clearly that ColorEyes Display software has technical advantages at least in the measurement and calibration of the greyscale and corresponding rendering of the luminosity range, which are important. It also facilitates tracking of monitor performance from one calibration to the next, also useful. I have just made the conversion from Monaco's software to ColorEyes and as I mentioned above, my monitor seems to be delivering a new kind of "snap". I am now profiled to the point that I've got 90% to 95% predictability between monitor and print, when using soft-proof for the comparison. So from a results perspective I am happy with it.

I can't comment on whether it is only good for high end monitors, but you need to look carefully at what you are reading in various reviews. Based on my general knowledge of statistical inference and sampling theory, I don't believe the Dry Creek review covered a sufficiently large and representative sample of monitors to come to a conclusion that it is only good for high end monitors, however "high-end" is defined - they don't say and they can't.  My monitor is a Dell/Sony Trinitron P-992 that came with my Dell 8200. It's not "high end" compared with a Sony Artisan, but it is "higher end" than the Dell something-or-other from 1999 that it replaced. And ColorEyes helped it nicely.  Dry Creek's statements in this department I'm afraid are just unscientific because the base-line is vague and the sampling is questionable.

Turning to the interface and documentation, there is nothing "unfinished" about the software. Once you have the hang of it, it works like a charm. That much said, in my opinion there is room to "idiot-proof" the instructions on the interface and in the user manual. But experience with this will vary from user to user, and the Company is VERY responsive in handling customer queries - speaking as an "experienced idiot"    I can confirm this from personal experience dealing with them over the past few days.
This has been a helpful discussion, and timely for me as I need to put in a request for system very soon and I'm very new to all this color managemnet stuff.  I've shot black-and-white for most of my photographic days going back to junior high school in the 1970s.

Much of this discussion, however, has been about monitor calibration, but not much about printer and scanner calibration.  ColorEyes seems to me (from their website) to be for cameras and monitors only, while the X-Rite Pulse ColorElite System handles scanners and printers, too.  Yes it's $2,300, but I'm selecting a system for an organization where there are Macs and PCs using different monitors (CRTs and Apple's LCDs), printers, and scanners.  Also, the Expression 10000XL we just got comes with Monaco EZcolor, although we've yet to use it, having used SilverFast thus far because that's what our scanning technician uses and knows on an earlier Epson model.

I'm wondering if the additional device types covered by the Pulse system, that would allow us to be sure that all equipment would be in sync, is a better choice as compared to the more limited types devises covered by ColorEyes, even if the latter is a better product.  Or, would it make more sense to by ColorEyes for cameras and monitors, and find what's best for scanners and printers--and hope that they all play nice with each other!?  Any thoughts?

Stephen
Logged
Jonathan Wienke
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5759



WWW
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2005, 01:52:03 AM »
ReplyReply

[shameless plug]
http://www.visual-vacations.com/ColorMa....ice.htm
[/shameless plug]
Logged

PhotoArchivist
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 9


« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2005, 10:27:45 AM »
ReplyReply

I'm presuming the new Espon Stylus printers are CMYK printers and not RGB, given the ink set, but nothing on the spec sheets at the Epson web site says one way or the other.  If they are RGB, then I wouldn't need to get the premier edition.
Logged
Noble Dean
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10


« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2005, 05:15:17 PM »
ReplyReply

I'm a frustrated amateur who wants my monitor to at least closely approximate what I will get from my printer and from online print shops.  There are numerous calebration tools on the market (ColorVision Spyder2Pro, Monaco x-rite Pro and Gretag Macbeth Display 2 to name a few) and each of them is offered with a variety of software options at different prices. Luminous landscapes is also recommending ColorEyes as a further enhancement.  What are people happy with?  What are they not happy with?  What are the best values? If I go the ColorEyes route do I even need to worry about the other software since it essentially replaces it?

Any helpful suggestions are welcome.

Noble
Logged
Mark D Segal
Contributor
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7044


WWW
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2005, 07:59:56 PM »
ReplyReply

I'm using Monaco Optix XR and generally getting very good results, also using the accompanying Monaco software. I find my CRT monitor (Trinitron) does need to be re-profiled periodically. For nineteen photos out of twenty the monitor-printer matching predictability is very good in respect of brightness and colour fidelity (when comparing with soft-proofing turned on). The twentieth photo is just "off". Don't know why - a complete mystery. Today, I tried ColorEyes demo version with my Monaco Optix XR. It seems to have dug added vibrancy out of the monitor, challenging the printer - an Epson 4000. That is a very preliminary observation. I need to test a few more photos to see whether this is fluke or truth. When you use ColorEyes it replaces native software. But you can create and test new profiles with any software back and forth as much as you have perseverance for.
Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
DarkPenguin
Guest
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2005, 10:42:30 PM »
ReplyReply

Dry Creek review of some calibration tools.
Logged
Mark D Segal
Contributor
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7044


WWW
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2005, 06:02:23 AM »
ReplyReply

Noble, having read the Dry Creek review, you will notice that except on the laptop monitors the combination of Monaco Optix XR with ColorEyes software gets the highest ratings in just about all categories. The Monaco Optix XR instrument is 250 at X-Rite (the manufacturer) and ColorEyes 175, taking you to 425. If you do a fair amount of work with an improperly calibrated and profiled monitor you'll waste that much money in time, ink and paper very soon, not to speak of the frustration.
Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Mark D Segal
Contributor
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7044


WWW
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2005, 08:17:34 AM »
ReplyReply

Even better, and at that price/quality pair, seems unambiguously the best way to go. I have to repeat - ColorEyes made my monitor sing yesterday and the color matching with a properly profiled printer is just fine. You know, even over a relatively short period of time, if you spend an extra hundred or so to get the best, it turns out to be the most cost-effective solution - and this is advice from yours truly who examines issues of cost vs. value-added very closely!
Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Noble Dean
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10


« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2005, 04:00:30 PM »
ReplyReply

Thank you one and all.  I followed your helpful leads and read the Dry Creak Reviews.  ColourEyes with the XRite DTP-94 preformed very well and the cost of the combination is within my range.  Clearly if they are being sold together then there should not be any conflicts to worry about.

Thanks to all you suggestion i think I will go that route.

Does anyone know if there is a dealer in Canada?

Dispite all the retoric about free trade getting stuff across the border can be a major pain in the ass.

Noble
Logged
Noble Dean
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10


« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2005, 11:55:32 PM »
ReplyReply

Thanks Mark
Your information was wonderful.  There's no way I can play hooky from work for half a day to attend the Seminar at Vistek on Wednesday but I figured if Vistek bringing in the developer of ColorEyes then surely they must be selling the product.
FOR FELLOW CANADIANS OUT THERE VISTEK HAS COLOREYES AND THE XRITE DTP-94 HERE IN CANADA FOR $439 CDN.AND SHIPPING IS FREE.
Integrated color corp has it at $325 plus $50 to ship it which when converted to Canadian funds is $461.CDN   I'm already ahead and i don't have any brokerage fees to worry about.  It iwll arrive in two to 5 days and hopefully I will be a happy camper.
My wife will be happy too after she retaliates and spends a ton at the sewing show she is headed to tomorrow.  Ah those hidden costs that bite you in the ass if you are not careful.

Thanks again for all your help. I'll let you know if it is worth it.

Noble
Logged
Mark D Segal
Contributor
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7044


WWW
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2005, 07:09:07 AM »
ReplyReply

Noble - this is very good news for Canadians. When I checked the Vistek website several days ago I saw a couple of other Integrated Color products offered, but I did not see this particular bundle in their listings - but now that you have checked with them and confirm they have it at that price, you can't go wrong. This is one of those rare instances when a Canadian price in Cdn dollars is a reasonably close match to a US price + shipping converted to Cdn. Cheers for Vistek this time!

Bernard - the technical information I have been able to digest and the profiling routine the software takes you through seems to indicate quite clearly that ColorEyes Display software has technical advantages at least in the measurement and calibration of the greyscale and corresponding rendering of the luminosity range, which are important. It also facilitates tracking of monitor performance from one calibration to the next, also useful. I have just made the conversion from Monaco's software to ColorEyes and as I mentioned above, my monitor seems to be delivering a new kind of "snap". I am now profiled to the point that I've got 90% to 95% predictability between monitor and print, when using soft-proof for the comparison. So from a results perspective I am happy with it.

I can't comment on whether it is only good for high end monitors, but you need to look carefully at what you are reading in various reviews. Based on my general knowledge of statistical inference and sampling theory, I don't believe the Dry Creek review covered a sufficiently large and representative sample of monitors to come to a conclusion that it is only good for high end monitors, however "high-end" is defined - they don't say and they can't.  My monitor is a Dell/Sony Trinitron P-992 that came with my Dell 8200. It's not "high end" compared with a Sony Artisan, but it is "higher end" than the Dell something-or-other from 1999 that it replaced. And ColorEyes helped it nicely.  Dry Creek's statements in this department I'm afraid are just unscientific because the base-line is vague and the sampling is questionable.

Turning to the interface and documentation, there is nothing "unfinished" about the software. Once you have the hang of it, it works like a charm. That much said, in my opinion there is room to "idiot-proof" the instructions on the interface and in the user manual. But experience with this will vary from user to user, and the Company is VERY responsive in handling customer queries - speaking as an "experienced idiot"  Cheesy  I can confirm this from personal experience dealing with them over the past few days.
Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Mark D Segal
Contributor
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7044


WWW
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2005, 08:15:48 AM »
ReplyReply

Yes,

One is Christophe Metairie in Bayonne France. It sounds like far off to mail printed targets, but they get there fast enough by airmail and from my experience his service is very good and very cost-effective. Michael reviewed him in September 30, 2004 "What's New" (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/new/new-sept-dec-04.shtml). Here is Michael's review:

<<Good profiles are a virtual necessity for high quality inkjet printing. It costs a lot of money and some effort to purchase the equipment to make these yourself, and most people don't bother. But the profiles that come with most printers or papers are rarely first rate. The alternative then is to have someone with the proper gear and skills make a custom profile for your printer, your inks, and your preferred paper. There are a number of people on the net who provide such service, but one that I recently had the opportunity to try myself was christophe métairie photographie, and I was very impressed with the results. Recommended. >>

Here is the website address: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/christophe.metairi...ie/profile.html

Another I have used is Giorgio Trucco in California. He is a technical pro in this field and provides excellent service as well. He came recommended through a now extinct digital imaging resource called "Imaging Review", which was staffed with pros like Bruce Fraser, Katrin Eismann, etc. The latest email address I have for Giorgio is: giorgio@gt-photography.com. His website address is: http://www.gt-photography.com/.

Going back to the question from PhotoArchivist, on further thought about this, not clear to me you need to spend as much as 2300 (US). You can buy the ColorEyes bundle for the monitor for 325, and for the printers either the X-Rite or Gretag McBeth spectrophotometer bundles for about 1200 or thereabouts. As far as I know, with such a monitor bundle and a printer bundle everything can be coherently profiled. Remember what these profiles are doing: for the monitor they are measuring the difference between the image data and what your monitor displays to then inform your monitor to adjust for these differences, and likewise for the printer they are measuring the difference between the image data and what the printer produces, to then inform the printer to adjust for these differences. As long as each piece is producing correct difference data, they need not come from the same manufacturer in order to end-up with a coherent result. I recommend reading as many serious technical reviews as you can find on the several high-quality choices that are available before buying.

By the way, anyone who wants to understand the last word about colour management should buy a copy of "Real World Color Management" by Bruce Fraser, Chris Murphy and Fred Bunting. Nothing is left out! (Amazon.com, 35 US. http://www.amazon.com/exec....1295918
Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Mark D Segal
Contributor
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7044


WWW
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2005, 01:30:02 PM »
ReplyReply

Glad to hear it worked for you.
Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Noble Dean
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10


« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2005, 07:57:50 PM »
ReplyReply

Thanks for the advice Mark.  Two years ago I bought an item from the states because it was significantly cheaper on the website.  The procedure was as you described.  However the brokerage fees were 50 dollars on a 200 dollar item.  Kind of defeated the purpose of buying it on line.  

Noble
Logged
Mark D Segal
Contributor
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7044


WWW
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2005, 10:16:16 AM »
ReplyReply

There are several integrated packages available - X-Rite's, Gretag-McBeth's being two I know of that are supposed to be very good. Silverfast can produce profiles for scanning and ColorEyes does as we have been discussing for Monitors. I have not studied or compared the relative merits of all these systems so I cannot advise.
Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Noble Dean
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10


« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2005, 10:58:16 PM »
ReplyReply

Thanks Mark
Have you got a name or email address of a reliable service?

Noble
Logged
Mark D Segal
Contributor
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7044


WWW
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2005, 01:00:55 PM »
ReplyReply

No, you probably are not missing anything. I was thinking of the $1500 RGB standard package with the spectrophotometer but without the Monaco Optix XR monitor sensor (because you would get that in the ColorEyes bundle for 325). The 1500 package has been quoted for 1200 on various promotions. If you need the elite edition for doing a broader range of devices, that I guess puts you in another ballpark!
Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Pages: [1] 2 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad