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Author Topic: between Pentax 645D and Hasselblad H, again but not completely...  (Read 5802 times)
donaldt
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« on: March 18, 2011, 10:19:20 AM »
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so I have a Hass H3Dii-50 with 80mm and 150mm lenses
a friend of mine has a full set Pentax 645D, with 11 or 12 lenses (basically full set except for the 150-300mm zoom and 35mm)
and we were talking about a possible trade
just want to ask some of you your opinion

some background info
he is a professional who does mostly studio
I am an amateur who do more outdoor
I dont want to spend much more to buy lenses
I want a camera with focal plane shutter and very rarely need leaf shutter for the high speed sync
so this deal does look right for both of us


however does anyone know the difference between the 14bit 645D and 16bit H3Dii-50? how obvious is it?
I know I can probably borrow it and test it but I kinda feel bad if I test it a bunch then throw it back to him you know

how would you value 645D with 11 or 12 lenses against the H3Dii-50 with 2 lenses, does a straight trade sound fair? given both are in excellent condition
the 645D is rarely found used and most of the lenses are quite hard to find these days, so I really dont know what is a fair value

how are the pentax optics? (I am no fan of the Fujinon optics)

how difficult is it to sell the Pentax set? in case I really dont like it, I might sell it and go back to what I think is best setup, a Contax 645 with a 1.1x crop back(33mp or 22mp), is it gonna be easier to sell the 645D then selling the H3Dii-50? I know it is hard to sell the H3Dii-50 as I have been selling it for about 2 weeks now still no real deal

thanks in advance for any opinions
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 10:22:21 AM by donaldt » Logged
ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2011, 12:47:34 PM »
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Hi,

The 16-bit stuff is more of a marketing thing than an issue. http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=51510.0

From the posting I have seen the Pentax lenses vary a lot, but Hasselblad may also do that.

You may check out Lloyd Chambers's DAP site for good info on Pentax lenses. It's a pay site but worth many times the price if you are in MF equipment.

Keep in mind that sensor size differs between MF cameras. So field of view may differ between lenses having the same focal length.

Best regards
Erik




so I have a Hass H3Dii-50 with 80mm and 150mm lenses
a friend of mine has a full set Pentax 645D, with 11 or 12 lenses (basically full set except for the 150-300mm zoom and 35mm)
and we were talking about a possible trade
just want to ask some of you your opinion

some background info
he is a professional who does mostly studio
I am an amateur who do more outdoor
I dont want to spend much more to buy lenses
I want a camera with focal plane shutter and very rarely need leaf shutter for the high speed sync
so this deal does look right for both of us


however does anyone know the difference between the 14bit 645D and 16bit H3Dii-50? how obvious is it?
I know I can probably borrow it and test it but I kinda feel bad if I test it a bunch then throw it back to him you know

how would you value 645D with 11 or 12 lenses against the H3Dii-50 with 2 lenses, does a straight trade sound fair? given both are in excellent condition
the 645D is rarely found used and most of the lenses are quite hard to find these days, so I really dont know what is a fair value

how are the pentax optics? (I am no fan of the Fujinon optics)

how difficult is it to sell the Pentax set? in case I really dont like it, I might sell it and go back to what I think is best setup, a Contax 645 with a 1.1x crop back(33mp or 22mp), is it gonna be easier to sell the 645D then selling the H3Dii-50? I know it is hard to sell the H3Dii-50 as I have been selling it for about 2 weeks now still no real deal

thanks in advance for any opinions

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natas
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« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2011, 08:22:22 PM »
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I Have not used the hassy you mentioned but I do own a 645d. I personally love the optics and one big pro for the pentax is weather sealing. I have shot with this camera in rain and hard snow and have had zero issues.
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donaldt
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« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2011, 09:55:33 PM »
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thanks, will look into that paid website

one thing I like about the 645D is indeed the weather seal, but does it still work with the older lenses?


does anyone have any idea about the value of the 2 package I mentioned?
does a straight trade deal sound fair?
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donaldt
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« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2011, 10:29:16 PM »
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finally finished catching up on the post about 12 14 16 bit
I think there was a question that wasnt answered
what is the true difference in terms on EVs between 14 and 16 bit? (lets just discard 12 bit)
I know that my H3Dii-50 does have a better DR than my D3 and my already Sold Mamiya ZD (at least to my eyes)
could it be that the EVs are in fact the same, but the H3Dii-50 is able to resolve better between each steps of EVs? (more linear?)

does anyone know what is the relevant DR in film? I mean if 14 bit is already better than film then 16 bit might really be useless because our lens might not be able to resolve that at all(I know Film is Analogue so there might not be an answer to this)




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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2011, 01:30:00 AM »
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Hi,

The conclusion was that there is no advantage what so ever with 16 bits over 14 bits. The reason is that 14 bits are mostly ample enough to cover the entire dynamic range of the sensor. Anything beyond the dynamic range of the sensor is noise.

1 bit corresponds to one eV (exactly) both mean a factor of two.

The enclosed figure from DxO mark shows that both Hasselblad and Pentax 645D fail to fully utilize even 12 bits. The second figure also shows the present DR-champ the Pentax K5 (an APS-C camera using Sony's latest CMOS sensor). The Pentax K5 almost fully utilizes 14 bits.

Regarding dynamic range it is not easy to compare film with sensors because films are not linear devices. Film has a shoulder where additional exposure has a reduced effect. The shoulder makes film able to separate better in the extreme highlight. Slide film has very low dynamic range 4-5 eV. Negativ film has a much wider dynamic range but is very noisy.

There is and advantage in having more pixels. When downsampling dynamic range will improve, but for your question this is not really relevant.

Keep in mind that the Hasselblad has more pixels on a larger sensor, so a Pentax 35 mm lens corresponds to 39 mm on the Pentax.

Regarding sensor characteristics the cameras seem to be quite close. They have different feature sets. Regarding the sensor both cameras seem to perform similarly, but the Pentax 645D has microlenses giving it a one stop advantage. On he Hasselblad you can emote the back and use with a view camera which may be a significant advantage.

Best regards
Erik





finally finished catching up on the post about 12 14 16 bit
I think there was a question that wasnt answered
what is the true difference in terms on EVs between 14 and 16 bit? (lets just discard 12 bit)
I know that my H3Dii-50 does have a better DR than my D3 and my already Sold Mamiya ZD (at least to my eyes)
could it be that the EVs are in fact the same, but the H3Dii-50 is able to resolve better between each steps of EVs? (more linear?)

does anyone know what is the relevant DR in film? I mean if 14 bit is already better than film then 16 bit might really be useless because our lens might not be able to resolve that at all(I know Film is Analogue so there might not be an answer to this)





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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2011, 02:11:40 AM »
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Hi,

Guillermo Glujik made a comparison of "bites" on a Pentax K5 which almost can utilize 14 bits.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=49200.msg409770#msg409770

The figures are quite illustrative.

For a real comparison between P45+ and the Pentax K5 check this discussion:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=50895.msg421886#msg421886

Please note that no one says that the humble Pentax K5 "is better" than the P45+ or any other MFDB, but it is one of the very few cameras actually making use of 14 bits.

My suggestion would be that the you ignore the 16 vs. 14 bit difference, but that you try to test both systems under realistic conditions and decide what suits you best.

Best regards
Erik


finally finished catching up on the post about 12 14 16 bit
I think there was a question that wasnt answered
what is the true difference in terms on EVs between 14 and 16 bit? (lets just discard 12 bit)
I know that my H3Dii-50 does have a better DR than my D3 and my already Sold Mamiya ZD (at least to my eyes)
could it be that the EVs are in fact the same, but the H3Dii-50 is able to resolve better between each steps of EVs? (more linear?)

does anyone know what is the relevant DR in film? I mean if 14 bit is already better than film then 16 bit might really be useless because our lens might not be able to resolve that at all(I know Film is Analogue so there might not be an answer to this)





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Christoph C. Feldhaim
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« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2011, 04:51:44 AM »
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Just a side note:
I doubt you will take 12 lenses with you when shooting outside ...
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donaldt
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« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2011, 05:15:46 AM »
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thanks a lot, its very informative
so is it fair to say that 16 bit CCD does in fact has 2 more steps of EV than 14 bit CCD
however current image engines are not capable of resolving that extra data
or is it the fact that the CCD was never capable of retrieving 16 bit of data to begin with?

if that is the case, the only difference between the 2 camera is now down to the physical size of the CCD and the 20% more of pixels?

in fact I think the most EVs I have ever got on the H3DII50 was 9 EVs or so but usually less
however as I said to my eyes the Hass definitely has a wider DR than my Nikon D3
so my next question is, could it be that 14 bit and 16 bit in fact are the same in terms EV steps (say about 11 steps in real world shooting)
but the higher bits help resolve more data in each and every steps of EVs
I dont know, is that possible?

sorry, clearly I dont understand this as much as most of you do, hopfully I will in the future
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donaldt
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« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2011, 05:26:07 AM »
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Just a side note:
I doubt you will take 12 lenses with you when shooting outside ...

LOL
thats so true

so what would you choose
1) keep the Hass, invest very slowly in the not so great but super expensive Fujinon lenses (I hate how the lenses are in weird f stops too, 100mm f2.2, 150mm f3.2, come on man, is f2 and f2.8 so difficult to make? especially at what you are charging)
2) trade with the full set Pentax
3) Keep the Hass H, invest in the less expensive but much better Hass V lenses(Carl Zeiss), forget about all the auto focus and aperture functions (I have the 100mm CF and 180mm CF,the 100mm CF is the one I always use, CFE is just too expensive), but no true wide angle at 40mm being widest

still nobody can answer my question about the dollar value of the 2 systems?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 05:32:28 AM by donaldt » Logged
ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2011, 05:53:17 AM »
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Hi!

There is nothing like a 16 bit CCD. A CCD is an analog device. A CCD has a dynamic range of about 1:4000 which is about 12 bits. Anything above 12 bits is simply marketing speak, in North America frequently called BS.

The slightly larger size of the sensor may matter to you or it may not. The difference in resolution is pretty small, may not be visible in prints.

A lot of other stuff counts:

- Are you comfortable with the camera?
- How accurate is AF?
- How accurate is exposure measurement?
- How good is histogram? A good histogram helps making best use of the 12 bits that are there for real!
- What can you afford?
- Does the system have what you need?

The impression I got from reading is that the Pentax 645D is essentially an upscaled DSLR with MF sensor (CCD, no OLP-filter) with microlenses added in.

Best regards
Erik


thanks a lot, its very informative
so is it fair to say that 16 bit CCD does in fact has 2 more steps of EV than 14 bit CCD
however current image engines are not capable of resolving that extra data
or is it the fact that the CCD was never capable of retrieving 16 bit of data to begin with?

if that is the case, the only difference between the 2 camera is now down to the physical size of the CCD and the 20% more of pixels?

in fact I think the most EVs I have ever got on the H3DII50 was 9 EVs or so but usually less
however as I said to my eyes the Hass definitely has a wider DR than my Nikon D3
so my next question is, could it be that 14 bit and 16 bit in fact are the same in terms EV steps (say about 11 steps in real world shooting)
but the higher bits help resolve more data in each and every steps of EVs
I dont know, is that possible?

sorry, clearly I dont understand this as much as most of you do, hopfully I will in the future
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Christoph C. Feldhaim
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« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2011, 06:06:58 AM »
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Your question is near impossible to answer, because it is founded on a lot of very personal choices.

For outside shooting portability is a great issue. If you go out for a tour of 6-9 hours you will feel
every gram of gear, especially in the mountains.

Maybe a DSLR like the D3X and a good carbon fiber tripod and a pano head will do.
A stitch of 9 images from a D3X with 1/3 overlap would give you 72 good megapixels
(as if you'd ever need more than the 24 Mpix...), if I'm not mistaken ...

How large do you really want to print?

A DSLR system also has the great versatility advantage - e.g. if on the Nikon side you could
use all your lenses on a different body, like the D3S and instantly have a great low-light system.

But even then: Nothing beats MF IQ-wise.

I also am convinced, that postprocessing has a very huge impact on the final image and it may make more sense
to invest in good software, a good monitor, a good printer and not sink ten-thousands of money into the capturing device alone.

Investing in some good workshops might also be a better investment than wasting the money for gear.

That all said from the perspective of an enthusiastic amateur - for a pro who needs to make money things might look different.

Just my 0.02 ...
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donaldt
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« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2011, 06:44:40 AM »
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LOL
yes okay I am quite familiar with the North American language as I used to live there
but I dont quite get it now, so the 16 bit we are talking about is the image engine or what?
my old Mamiya ZD was 12 bit and I could tell there was indeed difference in DR with my current Hass, so what exactly was I seeing?

as for the print, honestly I have made huge prints with my D3 12MP, and it was great (which is the reason why I never went to the D3x)
I would say the only people who really need anything over 20MP would be pros, which I am not
and I have always believed that more MP doesnt give better IQ (okay my first DC was a Minolta with like 1MP, that was another story)




Hi!

There is nothing like a 16 bit CCD. A CCD is an analog device. A CCD has a dynamic range of about 1:4000 which is about 12 bits. Anything above 12 bits is simply marketing speak, in North America frequently called BS.

The slightly larger size of the sensor may matter to you or it may not. The difference in resolution is pretty small, may not be visible in prints.

A lot of other stuff counts:

- Are you comfortable with the camera?
- How accurate is AF?
- How accurate is exposure measurement?
- How good is histogram? A good histogram helps making best use of the 12 bits that are there for real!
- What can you afford?
- Does the system have what you need?

The impression I got from reading is that the Pentax 645D is essentially an upscaled DSLR with MF sensor (CCD, no OLP-filter) with microlenses added in.

Best regards
Erik


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donaldt
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« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2011, 07:06:33 AM »
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thats quite true
I think it does come down to more of a personal preference

usually what I do is I shoot with both a MF camera and the Nikon D3
as I do mostly portraits, the combination is usually a mid-tele on the MF, like 150mm, for most of the shots
then the D3 with a 200mm f2 for the tight shots, and have a wide like 14-24mm in case I need it

the D3 with the 200mm is sharp as hell, but the IQ of MF is beyong reach for any 135 system
one of the major thing that I love about MF is the DR, which is why I kept asking
to me, who knows nothing about the technical stuff(I know a bit more now thanks to this forum), always thought that the DR was because of the larger sensor (and larger pixel)
and the Pentax 645D is only marginally larger than the 135 system at 44x33mm
so I have always questioned if the 645D is truly a MF, and if it has the same DR which I concern most
kinda like the ASP system, which wasnt really an 135 system in the beginning, I remember it was a different film roll(thought I was kinda young back then so I could be wrong), somehow it is considered 135 now in the digital world
if the DR is indeed from the physical size of the sensor, then 1.1x crop is a lot larger than 1.3x crop

up to now I dont think anyone can firmly say the H3D/H4D-50 has better IQ than the Pentax 645D
(not just talking about sharpness, D3X with 200mm f2 could well be the sharpest image taking machine currently in production)
I dont know, anyone?


Your question is near impossible to answer, because it is founded on a lot of very personal choices.

For outside shooting portability is a great issue. If you go out for a tour of 6-9 hours you will feel
every gram of gear, especially in the mountains.

Maybe a DSLR like the D3X and a good carbon fiber tripod and a pano head will do.
A stitch of 9 images from a D3X with 1/3 overlap would give you 72 good megapixels
(as if you'd ever need more than the 24 Mpix...), if I'm not mistaken ...

How large do you really want to print?

A DSLR system also has the great versatility advantage - e.g. if on the Nikon side you could
use all your lenses on a different body, like the D3S and instantly have a great low-light system.

But even then: Nothing beats MF IQ-wise.

I also am convinced, that postprocessing has a very huge impact on the final image and it may make more sense
to invest in good software, a good monitor, a good printer and not sink ten-thousands of money into the capturing device alone.

Investing in some good workshops might also be a better investment than wasting the money for gear.

That all said from the perspective of an enthusiastic amateur - for a pro who needs to make money things might look different.

Just my 0.02 ...
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2011, 08:29:44 AM »
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Hi,

According to the DxO data image quality is very, very little better on the the Hasselblad, due to more pixels. The major difference is that the Pentax achieves the same image quality at double ISO. Pentax has same image quality at 200 ISO as Hasselblad has at 100 ISO. Probably due to microlenses.

I'd suggest that the difference between the two sensors would be not visible in prints.

Lenses and other factor may be a different story.

Best regards
Erik

thats quite true
I think it does come down to more of a personal preference

usually what I do is I shoot with both a MF camera and the Nikon D3
as I do mostly portraits, the combination is usually a mid-tele on the MF, like 150mm, for most of the shots
then the D3 with a 200mm f2 for the tight shots, and have a wide like 14-24mm in case I need it

the D3 with the 200mm is sharp as hell, but the IQ of MF is beyong reach for any 135 system
one of the major thing that I love about MF is the DR, which is why I kept asking
to me, who knows nothing about the technical stuff(I know a bit more now thanks to this forum), always thought that the DR was because of the larger sensor (and larger pixel)
and the Pentax 645D is only marginally larger than the 135 system at 44x33mm
so I have always questioned if the 645D is truly a MF, and if it has the same DR which I concern most
kinda like the ASP system, which wasnt really an 135 system in the beginning, I remember it was a different film roll(thought I was kinda young back then so I could be wrong), somehow it is considered 135 now in the digital world
if the DR is indeed from the physical size of the sensor, then 1.1x crop is a lot larger than 1.3x crop

up to now I dont think anyone can firmly say the H3D/H4D-50 has better IQ than the Pentax 645D
(not just talking about sharpness, D3X with 200mm f2 could well be the sharpest image taking machine currently in production)
I dont know, anyone?


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donaldt
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« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2011, 09:00:01 AM »
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it is becoming more likely that the trade will take place as I learn more from you Erik

so now, why would anyone choose the Hasselblad over
just because of its brand? (I didnt really purposely got my Hass, long story but yea I got it)
or pros really need it to charge "properly"?

the only thing now is the value of a full set Pentax
the Pentax 645 lenses are becoming less and less available now and its hard to value them
can someone help out? how much should a set of Pentax 645D with almost every single lens worth? (except for the inferior 35mm and next to useless 150-300mm)

and does anyone know if such Pentax 645D set would be easy to sell?
my ultimate combo is still Contax 645 with a digital back (they are doing a promotion here on the Leaf 22mp back for about 8k, but the 33mp is more ideal for 40% more the price, of course 80mp would be great if I win the lottery)
after playing and owning a few MF system I am quite sure the Contax 645 is the best overall, only downside being you need a few backup bodies as they are ready to break down anytime now

thanks a lot guys I really am learning a lot here




Hi,

According to the DxO data image quality is very, very little better on the the Hasselblad, due to more pixels. The major difference is that the Pentax achieves the same image quality at double ISO. Pentax has same image quality at 200 ISO as Hasselblad has at 100 ISO. Probably due to microlenses.

I'd suggest that the difference between the two sensors would be not visible in prints.

Lenses and other factor may be a different story.

Best regards
Erik

« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 09:11:45 AM by donaldt » Logged
JV
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« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2011, 09:10:31 AM »
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the not so great but super expensive Fujinon lenses

completely disagree with the not so great part, I don't understand why people keep bringing this up...
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donaldt
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« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2011, 09:14:41 AM »
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completely disagree with the not so great part, I don't understand why people keep bringing this up...

they are super sharp
but very harsh at the same time
ideal for products but not quite if you do portrait and beauty and want smooth bokeh
I should have said it was my personal taste, they feel kinda like those Nikon Large Format lenses to me, sharp, but thats about it
I also wish they were faster like the Contax 645(or even Pentax), and comes in complete f stops instead of random f3.2 and f2.2 etc.

I miss the Zeiss optics (well still using them with the adapter)
and if I do decide to keep the Hass
chances are I will buy the complete V lens line, probably in CF and maybe the 120mm Makro in CFE
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 09:18:11 AM by donaldt » Logged
ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2011, 09:28:39 AM »
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Hi,

What I say is from reading. Try to get the opportunity to shoot with the gear before making the trade.

BR
Erik

it is becoming more likely that the trade will take place as I learn more from you Erik


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donaldt
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« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2011, 09:46:10 AM »
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makes sense enough
will see if I can get the chance to ask my friend to go shoot something together and we can swab camera at some point


Hi,

What I say is from reading. Try to get the opportunity to shoot with the gear before making the trade.

BR
Erik

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