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Author Topic: between Pentax 645D and Hasselblad H, again but not completely...  (Read 5669 times)
tsjanik
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« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2011, 11:13:32 AM »
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I am an amateur who do more outdoor
I dont want to spend much more to buy lenses
I want a camera with focal plane shutter and very rarely need leaf shutter for the high speed sync

Given your statement above, a 645D with 11-12 lenses appears to be a clear choice. 


the only thing now is the value of a full set Pentax
the Pentax 645 lenses are becoming less and less available now and its hard to value them
can someone help out? how much should a set of Pentax 645D with almost every single lens worth? (except for the inferior 35mm and next to useless 150-300mm)
The value of the lenses depends on which ones, i.e., A or FA, focal length.  If you list them, I can give you an approximate value.  11-12 lenses is not quite a complete set, there are at least 17 lenses I can think of off the top-of-my-head and that doesn't include A/FA versions.


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donaldt
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« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2011, 11:24:20 AM »
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yes in terms of practical usage I would say his Pentax set is more ideal
but I was still concern about the IQ, I wish the Hass costs over 2x more for a reason

I was told there were 14 Autofocus (FA) lenses for the Pentax 645
my friend said he is only without the 35mm and the 150-300mm, maybe one more but I forgot, probably the FA 300/5.6 as he has the FA 300/4)
and he has the kit lens as well (which I didnt like)

thanks a lot for helping
the Pentax 645 lenses seem so unavailable even on ebay, the only ones for sales are marked up really high and mostly NOS




Given your statement above, a 645D with 11-12 lenses appears to be a clear choice. 

The value of the lenses depends on which ones, i.e., A or FA, focal length.  If you list them, I can give you an approximate value.  11-12 lenses is not quite a complete set, there are at least 17 lenses I can think of off the top-of-my-head and that doesn't include A/FA versions.



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donaldt
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« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2011, 11:27:29 AM »
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here is the list of lenses I THINK he has

Kit Lens (55/2.8?)
SMC FA 645 45/2.8
SMC FA 645 75/2.8
SMC FA 645 120/4 Macro (could be MF version)
SMC FA 645 150/2.8
SMC FA 645 200/4
SMC FA*645 300/4 ED
SMC FA 645 400/5.6 ED
SMC  FA 645 33-55/4.5
SMC  FA 645 45-85/4.5
SMC FA 645 55-110/5.6
SMC FA 645 80-160/4.5 (not sure about this one)


I think he has a close to full line Pentax 67 as well
is there any of those 67 lenses that are particularly good? (that I should rob him in case we trade)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 11:29:31 AM by donaldt » Logged
Christoph C. Feldhaim
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« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2011, 11:32:42 AM »
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If I'd invest a huge amount of money or make such a big trade, I'd care

1. to know what I get in terms of having worked with it.
2. to invest in a system I can trust on the long run.

I don't know what Pentax's plans are, but I must say I'd hesitate, same with the very tempting Sony A's.
I believe for 35 mm/FF I'd go CaNiKon and for MF either Hassy or Phase.
For Film there are more options since you could use vintage cameras, but digital is another beast ....

The more money I spend, the more conservative I become it appears ....
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tsjanik
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« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2011, 12:16:42 PM »
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here is the list of lenses I THINK he has

Kit Lens (55/2.8?)
SMC FA 645 45/2.8
SMC FA 645 75/2.8
SMC FA 645 120/4 Macro (could be MF version)
SMC FA 645 150/2.8
SMC FA 645 200/4
SMC FA*645 300/4 ED
SMC FA 645 400/5.6 ED
SMC  FA 645 33-55/4.5
SMC  FA 645 45-85/4.5
SMC FA 645 55-110/5.6
SMC FA 645 80-160/4.5 (not sure about this one)


I think he has a close to full line Pentax 67 as well
is there any of those 67 lenses that are particularly good? (that I should rob him in case we trade)

A very rough estimate, based on what I would pay for good copies of those lenses is $10,00US, perhaps a bit more.  Given your situation, why don’t examine files from both cameras and decide for yourself which, if either, is preferable?
You might also find Lloyd Chamber’s site worth the cost, as he has reviewed both the 645D and H4D 50. http://diglloyd.com/index-dap.html
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DandA
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« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2011, 12:21:10 PM »
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Hi,

I can tell you right off the bat from my own personal in-depth testing with the 645D (with most all the lenses you listed and multiple samples of each)...that there is tremendous variation in performance between samples of the same lens.  So much so, I wouldn't have guessed I was dealing was the same lens in some cases. The FA 120 f4 macro was the exception, where multiple samples of this incredibly fine performer were very consistent.  This is after testing at close, mid-distance and infinity, tripod mounted, controlled conditions etc. All lenses best performance using the 645D Af fine tune was first determined prior to testing.  It seems that lenses that were acceptable QC standards for releases by Pentax back in the film days, may not be acceptable for performance on the 645D.  That's what appears to be occurring based on my observations/testing.

The point I am trying to make is any deal or arrangement to purchase such a system containing these FA lenses, would for me be predicated on trying out each lens first, determine best AF fine tune setting and then note how the lens performs.  Once complete, you'll have a much better handle on what you are giving up and what you are gaining in any proposed trade.  I cannot speak 1st hand what I would suggest for the person obtaining the Hassy system/lenses in such a proposed trade..so my comments basically pertain the Pentax FA/645D side of things.

I would also agree with the above assesment...the total value of the FA lenses listed, assuming they are close to LN condition, would be around $9200.00-$10,0000 . Any other condition of the lenses could decrease or slightly increase this estimate, in my view.

Dave (DandA)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 12:25:09 PM by DandA » Logged
donaldt
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« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2011, 12:24:34 PM »
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do you mean 1000USD per lens?
so with the 645D which I guess would cost at least 7k used
it does sound like a straight swap

already paid and read the website today
very useful and I am seeing the same problems I have with the Hass as well

but he does really say anything about the IQ between the 2, which is my last concern

A very rough estimate, based on what I would pay for good copies of those lenses is $10,00US, perhaps a bit more.  Given your situation, why don’t examine files from both cameras and decide for yourself which, if either, is preferable?
You might also find Lloyd Chamber’s site worth the cost, as he has reviewed both the 645D and H4D 50. http://diglloyd.com/index-dap.html

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natas
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« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2011, 12:30:19 PM »
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thanks, will look into that paid website

one thing I like about the 645D is indeed the weather seal, but does it still work with the older lenses?


does anyone have any idea about the value of the 2 package I mentioned?
does a straight trade deal sound fair?

The old lenses are not water proof. When I was out in rain I covered my lenses up with a plastic bag, but didn't worry about the body. The new 55 I didn't worry about at all. When I was in heavy snow I covered them up at first but then eventually just let them loose. I didn't have any problems.
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donaldt
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« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2011, 12:35:55 PM »
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recently as I am researching into the lenses of the Hass and the Pentax
I found that many people complain about bad copies (for both systems)
which I am surprised given how much they charge for a lens like Hass (I have many many many lenses in the past, seems to me older lenses suffer less from this than modern AF lenses)
good thing about the Hass though you can keep sending it back for calibration (if you dont mind the time and possible cost)
is it the same for Pentax? can I still send back these FA lenses for calibrations in needed? I know they dont really make these anymore, probably gonna do the same thing like they did to DSLR, forcing people to believe they need silent AF motor, some Image Stabilizing mechanism, fancy Micro-Nano with a * coating, an be charges 10x more


Hi,

I can tell you right off the bat from my own personal in-depth testing with the 645D (with most all the lenses you listed and multiple samples of each)...that there is tremendous variation in performance between samples of the same lens.  So much so, I wouldn't have guessed I was dealing was the same lens in some cases. The FA 120 f4 macro was the exception, where multiple samples of this incredibly fine performer were very consistent.  This is after testing at close, mid-distance and infinity, tripod mounted, controlled conditions etc. All lenses best performance using the 645D Af fine tune was first determined prior to testing.  It seems that lenses that were acceptable QC standards for releases by Pentax back in the film days, may not be acceptable for performance on the 645D.  That's what appears to be occurring based on my observations/testing.

The point I am trying to make is any deal or arrangement to purchase such a system containing these FA lenses, would for me be predicated on trying out each lens first, determine best AF fine tune setting and then note how the lens performs.  Once complete, you'll have a much better handle on what you are giving up and what you are gaining in any proposed trade.  I cannot speak 1st hand what I would suggest for the person obtaining the Hassy system/lenses in such a proposed trade..so my comments basically pertain the Pentax FA/645D side of things.

I would also agree with the above assesment...the total value of the FA lenses listed, assuming they are close to LN condition, would be around $9200.00-$10,0000 . Any other condition of the lenses could decrease or slightly increase this estimate, in my view.

Dave (DandA)
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natas
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« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2011, 12:40:09 PM »
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About the lenses:

Everyone has a different take on the pentax lenses. If you read the old reviews they got awesome reviews...but this was on film. All of the lenses I have used work great on the 645D. Some people complain about softness in the corners but for me I haven't had one complaint. Sure I see a slight softness in the corners of my 45-85mm but its very very slight and still works great for a very large print. If your coming from say a Canon system (like I did) you will be very very pleased with the performance.

I have used my lenses mainly from f11-f22. I hear people say they are best at f11-13. I have no issues shooting at f22, it may have slight diffraction at F22 but you will only see this if you pixel peep. I have shots hanging right now that were printed at 30x40 shot at f22. From 3 feet away I see no issues at all. Maybe I have been lucky and got good samples of lenses.

If your shooting mainly landscape then i wouldn't pass this trade up. You get a very wide range of lenses and a body that in my opinion is more geared for outdoor use.
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DandA
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« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2011, 12:43:06 PM »
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recently as I am researching into the lenses of the Hass and the Pentax
I found that many people complain about bad copies (for both systems)
which I am surprised given how much they charge for a lens like Hass (I have many many many lenses in the past, seems to me older lenses suffer less from this than modern AF lenses)
good thing about the Hass though you can keep sending it back for calibration (if you dont mind the time and possible cost)
is it the same for Pentax? can I still send back these FA lenses for calibrations in needed? I know they dont really make these anymore, probably gonna do the same thing like they did to DSLR, forcing people to believe they need silent AF motor, some Image Stabilizing mechanism, fancy Micro-Nano with a * coating, an be charges 10x more



Some here in the States have been told (by Pentax USA) that they could try sending in some of their FA lenses to be looked at.  Whether there is a charge and what they might be doing or adjusting with the lens, hasn't been specified...so I wouldn't rely on this at the moment with Pentax.  It's not something was initially wrong with a mediocre copy of a given Pentax FA lens when initially released in the film days...as it probably met some minium standard for performance (on film).  It's just that these slightly less precise adjusted lenses show their imprecision on the 645D whereas with film, this generally wouldn't be seen, especially with the tickness of the film base  and/or those not examining to the extent we do with pixel peeping.

Dave (DandA)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 12:45:20 PM by DandA » Logged
DandA
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« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2011, 12:43:24 PM »
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I addressed in my posts above, the necessaity of adjusting the FA fine tune on the 645D prior to evaluating any FA lens.  As for pixel peeping, my comments about all these FA lens performance in my testing was done by examining the 100% crops across the entire frame.  Since my output is for large format prints,. I do need to examine the crops...so my evaluation of lens performance is based on this.  Although I stop down to f11-f13 for landscape use, I also shoot at 1 to 2 stops from max aperture...so my performance comments also relate to how these lenses do 1-2 stops down from max. aperture.

If one is only shooting at f13 and smaller, then maybe yes, more samples of the lenses I evaluated would get a higher passing grade (from me).

Dave (DandA)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 12:51:02 PM by DandA » Logged
natas
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« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2011, 12:45:16 PM »
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recently as I am researching into the lenses of the Hass and the Pentax
I found that many people complain about bad copies (for both systems)
which I am surprised given how much they charge for a lens like Hass (I have many many many lenses in the past, seems to me older lenses suffer less from this than modern AF lenses)
good thing about the Hass though you can keep sending it back for calibration (if you dont mind the time and possible cost)
is it the same for Pentax? can I still send back these FA lenses for calibrations in needed? I know they dont really make these anymore, probably gonna do the same thing like they did to DSLR, forcing people to believe they need silent AF motor, some Image Stabilizing mechanism, fancy Micro-Nano with a * coating, an be charges 10x more



I don't know the answer to this question because all my copies have been great. What you might want to do is contact Pentax and ask.

One feature this camera has is AF Adjustment. So if you have a prime and it is front focusing or back focusing you can dial that in to fix it. My 75 f2.8 had issues front focusing so I made the adjustments and it has been spot on ever since. I don't know if the Hassy can do this. Your worst case scenario IMO will be getting a lens that is seriously off skewed (not sure on the proper terminology) to one side. I have heard people say they have bought used lenses that are off on a certain side.

BTW the only lens I have heard bad things about is the SMC  FA 645 33-55/4.5. This lens from what I understand had a bad rep before the 645D was released.
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tsjanik
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« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2011, 12:57:50 PM »
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do you mean 1000USD per lens?
..................but he does really say anything about the IQ between the 2, which is my last concern

Average cost is about $1000, but considerable range.  A good 200 can be found for $400, a good 300 f/4 about $1500

Lloyd does say he prefers the 645D sensor to the S2.  

Since you have access to both cameras you really should compare the files yourself.

In terms of cost, I think the old Pentax lenses are a bargain and that's about to change considering the new 25mm is $5000
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 01:36:10 PM by tsjanik » Logged
donaldt
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« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2011, 09:09:57 PM »
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the 25mm is what makes my friend wanting to give up on the Pentax
$5000 is crazy and you cant use it on true 645 either
in fact he has been keeping the 645 lenses for 10 years waiting for the 645D (he has full set Pentax 67, 645, and 135 for like 20 years, the last 10 years  or so with the Pentax 135 digital, then Sony A until the 645D came out)
so I am guessing this is a very bad move for Pentax to decide pricing the ultra wide $5000




Average cost is about $1000, but considerable range.  A good 200 can be found for $400, a good 300 f/4 about $1500

Lloyd does say he prefers the 645D sensor to the S2.  

Since you have access to both cameras you really should compare the files yourself.

In terms of cost, I think the old Pentax lenses are a bargain and that's about to change considering the new 25mm is $5000
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donaldt
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« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2011, 09:10:45 PM »
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this is funny
I thought the 33-55mm outperforms the 35mm
was I wrong?


I don't know the answer to this question because all my copies have been great. What you might want to do is contact Pentax and ask.

One feature this camera has is AF Adjustment. So if you have a prime and it is front focusing or back focusing you can dial that in to fix it. My 75 f2.8 had issues front focusing so I made the adjustments and it has been spot on ever since. I don't know if the Hassy can do this. Your worst case scenario IMO will be getting a lens that is seriously off skewed (not sure on the proper terminology) to one side. I have heard people say they have bought used lenses that are off on a certain side.

BTW the only lens I have heard bad things about is the SMC  FA 645 33-55/4.5. This lens from what I understand had a bad rep before the 645D was released.
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tsjanik
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« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2011, 12:35:09 PM »
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the 25mm is what makes my friend wanting to give up on the Pentax
$5000 is crazy and you cant use it on true 645 either
in fact he has been keeping the 645 lenses for 10 years waiting for the 645D (he has full set Pentax 67, 645, and 135 for like 20 years, the last 10 years  or so with the Pentax 135 digital, then Sony A until the 645D came out)
so I am guessing this is a very bad move for Pentax to decide pricing the ultra wide $5000


Has your friend seen the price of the Hasselblad 28mm?  My understanding is the 25mm is useable on full frame 645, hence the DFA designation.  Nonetheless, I agree the lens is overpriced and is a marketing mistake.
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donaldt
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« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2011, 11:41:04 PM »
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I am quite sure the 25mm is only for the 645D (44x33mm CCD)
the Hass 28mm is basically similar in price
but the physically larger CCD of the Hass means you can get by with the 35mm (not on the 645D)
and although both being made in Japan, lens branded Hasselblad is naturally expensive, I guess all of us would accept the Hass 28mm being priced around 5k, but not the Pentax 25mm for anything close to that


Has your friend seen the price of the Hasselblad 28mm?  My understanding is the 25mm is useable on full frame 645, hence the DFA designation.  Nonetheless, I agree the lens is overpriced and is a marketing mistake.
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DandA
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« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2011, 11:58:24 PM »
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About the lenses:

Everyone has a different take on the pentax lenses. If you read the old reviews they got awesome reviews...but this was on film. All of the lenses I have used work great on the 645D. Some people complain about softness in the corners but for me I haven't had one complaint. Sure I see a slight softness in the corners of my 45-85mm but its very very slight and still works great for a very large print. If your coming from say a Canon system (like I did) you will be very very pleased with the performance.

I have used my lenses mainly from f11-f22. I hear people say they are best at f11-13. I have no issues shooting at f22, it may have slight diffraction at F22 but you will only see this if you pixel peep. I have shots hanging right now that were printed at 30x40 shot at f22. From 3 feet away I see no issues at all. Maybe I have been lucky and got good samples of lenses.

If your shooting mainly landscape then i wouldn't pass this trade up. You get a very wide range of lenses and a body that in my opinion is more geared for outdoor use.

Sure, if one shoots their lenses at f13-f22, most all will look great...yet for those that "ALSO" use lenses closer to one or two stops down from max aperture, then not all samples of the various Pentax focal length FA lenses are good.  I've finishing up a comprehesive study of most of them (mulitple samples) on the 645D.  So it may not be entirely a matter of your being luckly in getting all excellent Fa lenses..but a consequence of shooting at f13-f22, where most any lens will be good.  Just some observations based on testing of these lenses.

Dave
« Last Edit: March 20, 2011, 11:59:56 PM by DandA » Logged
DandA
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« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2011, 12:27:22 AM »
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I am quite sure the 25mm is only for the 645D (44x33mm CCD)
the Hass 28mm is basically similar in price
but the physically larger CCD of the Hass means you can get by with the 35mm (not on the 645D)
and although both being made in Japan, lens branded Hasselblad is naturally expensive, I guess all of us would accept the Hass 28mm being priced around 5k, but not the Pentax 25mm for anything close to that



According to the Press release from Pentax a few weeks ago they said the following (quote) ---> "Offering a focal length of approximately 19.5mm in the 35mm format (or approximately 15.5mm when mounted on a PENTAX 645-format film SLR camera body), this new lens provides the widest perspective of all PENTAX 645 lenses."<<<

So according to this statement, the new 25mm can be used on their film 645 bodies. Whether that still holds true, guess we'll have to wait and see.

As for the 33-55 zoom vs. the FA 35mm f3.5 lens...no comparision, the Fa 35mm f3.5 wins hands down in my opinion.

Dave
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