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Author Topic: H4D40 and P40+  (Read 14238 times)
design_freak
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« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2011, 01:39:56 PM »
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Do you use PC with Windows for capture Huh!  I think 95% of all professional photographers use Apple for capture ( Digital Back users). USB 3.0 only make sense... Backwards compatibility Huh (USB 2.0, USB 1.0 ) For Whom???
Anyway Canon will use Thunderbolt technology...

And "one more thing"
Stave have always right ;-)
If they want to sell a lot of equipment, they need to produce everything what Apple want. It's a very big market... Everybody want to earn money ...

Best regards,
Design Freak 


Quote
I don't think utilizing USB 2/3 connectivity was a bad move. USB 3 is the volume leader, thanks to its backwards compatibility with 1 billion+ USB 2.0 ports.

There are some very large markets that a more PC based than Apple. USB has been a standard transfer technology for many years and has a proven track record and USB 3 being the next generation with backwards compatibility.

At least Phase One is looking at offering alternatives if in fact Firewire goes away. I haven't seen any other manufacturer build multiple interfaces into their backs.

It has been announced Apple has a 1 to 1.5 year exclusive on Lightpeak/Thunderbolt, don't you think that will have some effect on peripheral manufacturers adopting it over USB 3 since there are many more PC's out there in the world?

Steve Jobs is not always correct...
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Dustbak
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« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2011, 02:30:49 PM »
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Well, at the time thinking sensors would not get bigger and keeping the prices  of these lenses at an 'acceptable' level does make sense. Lets face it you think 5000euros for a 22MP H3DII is already too much, would you like to pay 5K euros or more for a HC28? Lets not even think about the price of a HC35-90...

Anyway these lenses are there at this moment and AS AN ACTUAL USER of a H4D60 with both the HCD28 as well as the HCD35-90 I can assure you I hardly notice (not at all actually in most real day to day uses) that this lens is not meant for the sensor size of the 60.

The only people I hear 'complaining' about this are the ones that do not use it, it seems...
« Last Edit: March 20, 2011, 02:37:30 PM by Dustbak » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2011, 02:57:42 PM »
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Lets face it you think 5000euros for a 22MP H3DII is already too much, would you like to pay 5K euros or more for a HC28? Lets not even think about the price of a HC35-90...
not at all , you keep the lenses but not the body ... the body is nothing but a sensor with a click ... a kind of mouse for computers
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gazwas
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« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2011, 03:22:24 PM »
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The Hasselblad 28mm lens is another similar issue to my statement earlier about the speed of products to market and the on going fixes to get stuff working and the reason why I went Phase One.

For a company to design a lens that does not cover full frame on a 645 body because they feel a full frame 645 chip won't be developed anytime soon is a ridiculous notion. Huh I don't care what you say as a H4D60 owner, a few millimetres crop is still a crop off the full frame and a major foresight on Hasselblads part.

My argument is that while Hasselblad are designing/fixing/releasing products for now, Phase are dreaming up the new stuff for the future and to me would be a worrying position to be in as if I was a Hasselblad owner.
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Dustbak
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« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2011, 03:28:21 PM »
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I don't get you, why would I be worried about P1? Hasselblad serves me well, how P1 is doing has nothing to do with that. Who said anything about a crop? You can use the HCD lenses without a crop too. Why would the HCD28 be an on-going fix??

You guys are not making a lot of sense. If P1 is what you like to use, go ahead and use it. If you have hands on experiences with the stuff you are talking about fine but in this case I am starting to wonder whether either of you have (HCD lenses and the H4D60). So you don't care what real users say about something but you do want to persist in making your own firm statements about tools you don't own or use? Fine, say whatever you like...

For the record, there are a lot of things I really like about P1 and Leaf (having used one for years).
« Last Edit: March 20, 2011, 03:31:22 PM by Dustbak » Logged
gazwas
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« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2011, 03:57:52 PM »
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I don't get you, why would I be worried about P1? Hasselblad serves me well, how P1 is doing has nothing to do with that. Who said anything about a crop? You can use the HCD lenses without a crop too. Why would the HCD28 be an on-going fix??

You guys are not making a lot of sense. If P1 is what you like to use, go ahead and use it. If you have hands on experiences with the stuff you are talking about fine but in this case I am starting to wonder whether either of you have (HCD lenses and the H4D60). So you don't care what real users say about something but you do want to persist in making your own firm statements about tools you don't own or use? Fine, say whatever you like...

For the record, there are a lot of things I really like about P1 and Leaf (having used one for years).

I don't think anyone is saying Hasselblad don't make great products its just lately their vision doesn't seem to match Phases's. If the performance of the 28mm doesn't bother you than thats fine but when I was looking into both systems recently little things like that, on how the company must think when developing new products just bothered me. And as for being worried by Phase One, you are right directly you shouldn't be bothered in the slightest but looking as I did without preferences the Phase system just seemed to be going somewhere. Unless you rent your equipment then yes, long term potentially you should be worried if you value your investment.
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« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2011, 04:41:45 PM »
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I don't think anyone is saying Hasselblad don't make great products its just lately their vision doesn't seem to match Phases's. If the performance of the 28mm doesn't bother you than thats fine but when I was looking into both systems recently little things like that, on how the company must think when developing new products just bothered me. And as for being worried by Phase One, you are right directly you shouldn't be bothered in the slightest but looking as I did without preferences the Phase system just seemed to be going somewhere. Unless you rent your equipment then yes, long term potentially you should be worried if you value your investment.

IMHO, if Phase really had the vision you talk about they would have bought into a better camera platform than the mamiya 645, just one example being the Rollei Hy6, which they probably could still do.    Even after multiple updates the camera is not up to the job and clearly not the equal of other existing platforms. Does that cry out vision to you?  Sure they did introduce a few leaf shutter lenses but these won't fix all the limitations of the body. Recently I shot with the 645DF and the 80mm lens with leaf shutter.  The higher sync of the leaf shutter was appreciated, but still did nothing for the shutter lag.   Very curious to know what Phase will bring to the table with the new camera mentioned but how long will we have to wait for that?  
« Last Edit: March 20, 2011, 04:45:26 PM by EricWHiss » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2011, 02:05:11 AM »
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My argument is that while Hasselblad are designing/fixing/releasing products for now, Phase are dreaming up the new stuff for the future and to me would be a worrying position to be in as if I was a Hasselblad owner.

If a touch screen and 80MP are on your list of 'must haves' then perhaps I could agree.  Although you should really compliment Leaf for that technology, not Phase One.

If on the other hand in your Camera system you would prefer...

•   11 High performance lenses – all with lens shutter and in-built AF motors
•   Fully automatic digital lens corrections for all H lenses – no manual lens selection. Uses actual capture conditions reported automatically by the lens
•   Instant manual focus override – no need for manual switching of focus mode
•   HTS 1.5 Tilt/Shift converter with 5 lenses including automatic digital lens correction
•   CF lens adapter for Carl Zeiss C/CF lenses with full lens shutter operation
•   Digital lens correction for all Carl Zeiss lenses
•   Advanced auto-focus system including gyro based True Focus
•   Interchangeable viewfinders
•   Larger and brighter viewfinder image
•   Excellent ergonomics
•   Camera mirror-up mode, for zero vibration captures. Mirror remains UP between captures.
•   4 User programmable buttons, for short-cuts to the most used functions
•   7 user profiles storing complete camera set-up, for fast and safe access to different modes of operation
•   Convenient single battery solution – only one battery type and charger required
•   DC Power Grip, for powering the camera from mains power
•   Full camera remote control via Phocus and Phocus Mobile for iPad and iPhone. Remote camera control includes focussing via control of the AF motor
•   Fully user upgradeable camera firmware for viewfinder, camera and lenses. No need to return to the service centre
•   GPS accessory
•   Multi-shot functionality option
•   IAA – Instant Approval Architecture for manual or automatic classification of images in the camera
•   Rollei- and Schneider electronic shutter control for View Camera use
•   Single color profile delivering outstanding colors – no need for profile selection depending on the subject.

Then my opinion differs somewhat.

David

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David Grover
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Quentin
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« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2011, 05:21:39 AM »
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That's pretty much why I chose the Hasselblad (H4D-50) route.  The Hassy system is a system, whereas the Phase One equivalent seemed to me to be a disparate collection of parts yet to form a true system.

It was simply no contest.
Quentin

If a touch screen and 80MP are on your list of 'must haves' then perhaps I could agree.  Although you should really compliment Leaf for that technology, not Phase One.

If on the other hand in your Camera system you would prefer.

•   11 High performance lenses – all with lens shutter and in-built AF motors
•   Fully automatic digital lens corrections for all H lenses – no manual lens selection. Uses actual capture conditions reported automatically by the lens
•   Instant manual focus override – no need for manual switching of focus mode
•   HTS 1.5 Tilt/Shift converter with 5 lenses including automatic digital lens correction
•   CF lens adapter for Carl Zeiss C/CF lenses with full lens shutter operation
•   Digital lens correction for all Carl Zeiss lenses
•   Advanced auto-focus system including gyro based True Focus
•   Interchangeable viewfinders
•   Larger and brighter viewfinder image
•   Excellent ergonomics
•   Camera mirror-up mode, for zero vibration captures. Mirror remains UP between captures.
•   4 User programmable buttons, for short-cuts to the most used functions
•   7 user profiles storing complete camera set-up, for fast and safe access to different modes of operation
•   Convenient single battery solution – only one battery type and charger required
•   DC Power Grip, for powering the camera from mains power
•   Full camera remote control via Phocus and Phocus Mobile for iPad and iPhone. Remote camera control includes focussing via control of the AF motor
•   Fully user upgradeable camera firmware for viewfinder, camera and lenses. No need to return to the service centre
•   GPS accessory
•   Multi-shot functionality option
•   IAA – Instant Approval Architecture for manual or automatic classification of images in the camera
•   Rollei- and Schneider electronic shutter control for View Camera use
•   Single color profile delivering outstanding colors – no need for profile selection depending on the subject.

Then my opinion differs somewhat.

David


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Quentin Bargate, ARPS, Author, photographer entrepreneur and senior partner of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2013
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« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2011, 06:08:06 AM »
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If a touch screen and 80MP are on your list of 'must haves' then perhaps I could agree.  Although you should really compliment Leaf for that technology, not Phase One.

If on the other hand in your Camera system you would prefer...

•   11 High performance lenses – all with lens shutter and in-built AF motors
•   Fully automatic digital lens corrections for all H lenses – no manual lens selection. Uses actual capture conditions reported automatically by the lens
•   Instant manual focus override – no need for manual switching of focus mode
•   HTS 1.5 Tilt/Shift converter with 5 lenses including automatic digital lens correction
•   CF lens adapter for Carl Zeiss C/CF lenses with full lens shutter operation
•   Digital lens correction for all Carl Zeiss lenses
•   Advanced auto-focus system including gyro based True Focus
•   Interchangeable viewfinders
•   Larger and brighter viewfinder image
•   Excellent ergonomics
•   Camera mirror-up mode, for zero vibration captures. Mirror remains UP between captures.
•   4 User programmable buttons, for short-cuts to the most used functions
•   7 user profiles storing complete camera set-up, for fast and safe access to different modes of operation
•   Convenient single battery solution – only one battery type and charger required
•   DC Power Grip, for powering the camera from mains power
•   Full camera remote control via Phocus and Phocus Mobile for iPad and iPhone. Remote camera control includes focussing via control of the AF motor
•   Fully user upgradeable camera firmware for viewfinder, camera and lenses. No need to return to the service centre
•   GPS accessory
•   Multi-shot functionality option
•   IAA – Instant Approval Architecture for manual or automatic classification of images in the camera
•   Rollei- and Schneider electronic shutter control for View Camera use
•   Single color profile delivering outstanding colors – no need for profile selection depending on the subject.

Then my opinion differs somewhat.

David



Nice list David, I knew there was a reason I bought Hasselblad. You just have to love that closed system Roll Eyes
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Christoph C. Feldhaim
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« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2011, 06:51:11 AM »
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Does the "closedness" of the Hassy have some real advantage?
Its hard to believe it was only a marketing decision ....
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #31 on: March 21, 2011, 07:08:32 AM »
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Absolutely Christoph!

Please refer to my list above! And...

- HTS would not be as useful without it.
- A very basic thing - One battery, one charger, one power button.
- Custom calibration of an expensive precision instrument - would you not expect anything less?
- Automatic lens corrections based on data at time of shooting. No need to waste your time correcting individual images or in a batch.
- Remote focussing of the camera... remote control of the camera.
- Phocus mobile...

The H system was designed with a very simple but powerful network to be able to pass data from all components to another.  This means even the viewfinder can be programmed to give different information for when we give firmware updates.

Incidentally any customer can update the firmware on their camera via our software simply through the normal firewire connection.  You do not need to but any expensive accessories or send the camera to a service centre.

There is a lot more to a camera than simply the number of MP's.

And so on.

Having control over the system from back to front means advantages to all.
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David Grover
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Christoph C. Feldhaim
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« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2011, 07:58:48 AM »
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Thank you very much David for the answer.
I'd like to hear something from the Phase side about this too.

Actually I'd wish the camera companies would develop an open standard for component communication,
since if I'm not mistaken what you describe should all be possible in an open system as well, including custom calibration.
I strongly believe in seeing equipment as a system, but still can't see why closedness is necessary to achieve that.
Sometimes I wish companies should be forced by law to open and document their interfaces.

I'd also like to know, why the points you were mentioning would require a closed system.

The only MF system I own is a fairly complete Mamiya Universal/Super23 camera and I'm tempted to get into digital MF one day. But when I read about compatibility issues and company politics my stomach turns upside down and I step back, especially when thinking about spending such a huge pile of money.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 08:00:28 AM by Christoph C. Feldhaim » Logged

Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2011, 09:52:21 PM »
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If a touch screen and 80MP are on your list of 'must haves' then perhaps I could agree.  Although you should really compliment Leaf for that technology, not Phase One.

If on the other hand in your Camera system you would prefer...

•   11 High performance lenses – all with lens shutter and in-built AF motors
•   Fully automatic digital lens corrections for all H lenses – no manual lens selection. Uses actual capture conditions reported automatically by the lens
•   Instant manual focus override – no need for manual switching of focus mode
•   HTS 1.5 Tilt/Shift converter with 5 lenses including automatic digital lens correction
•   CF lens adapter for Carl Zeiss C/CF lenses with full lens shutter operation
•   Digital lens correction for all Carl Zeiss lenses
•   Advanced auto-focus system including gyro based True Focus
•   Interchangeable viewfinders
•   Larger and brighter viewfinder image
•   Excellent ergonomics
•   Camera mirror-up mode, for zero vibration captures. Mirror remains UP between captures.
•   4 User programmable buttons, for short-cuts to the most used functions
•   7 user profiles storing complete camera set-up, for fast and safe access to different modes of operation
•   Convenient single battery solution – only one battery type and charger required
•   DC Power Grip, for powering the camera from mains power
•   Full camera remote control via Phocus and Phocus Mobile for iPad and iPhone. Remote camera control includes focussing via control of the AF motor
•   Fully user upgradeable camera firmware for viewfinder, camera and lenses. No need to return to the service centre
•   GPS accessory
•   Multi-shot functionality option
•   IAA – Instant Approval Architecture for manual or automatic classification of images in the camera
•   Rollei- and Schneider electronic shutter control for View Camera use
•   Single color profile delivering outstanding colors – no need for profile selection depending on the subject.

Then my opinion differs somewhat.

David





Just a few rejoinders to this extensive list so it doesn't seem so, oh, I don't know, one sided?  Smiley

Phase One Camera Options
*   Over 17 current and active lenses to choose from Mamiya and Schneider with 4 of them in Leaf Shutter, all of which were introduced in the past
        2 years. How many leaf Shutter lenses has Hasselblad introduced in this period?
*   Fastest flash sync (up to 1/1600th) and shutter speed (1/4000th) of any medium format system.
*   Automatic lens corrections for Hasselblad H lenses, Hasselblad V lenses, Contax lenses, and Phase/Mamiya lenses. Also, the ability to manually
        override these controls and customize them. I didn't realize that anyone would see the ability to customize your lens corrections as a negative.
*   Lens corrections offered:
   --- Hasselblad Lens Corrections: Chromatic Aberration, Distortion, Vignetting (positive only). All automatic (no manual override).
   --- Phase One Lens Corrections: Chromatic Aberration, Distortion, Vignetting (positive and negative), Purple Fringing, Light Falloff (positive and       
        negative), Edge Sharpening Mask, Automatic and Manual Control.
*   Hasselblad Lens Adapter that accepts not just CF lenses but also FE lenses.
*   Yes, a DC Power Option
*   Vertical Grip with built-in wireless sync and on battery type and charger required.
*   In Camera approval system
*   One button on/off (with IQ series)
*   Single color profile for outstanding color reproduction….with the option of using and creating additional profiles.
*   Largest square sensor option (40mm) and highest resolution (60MP - 80MP) for the Hasselblad V Series cameras.
*   Ability to go on almost any medium or large format camera with a range of products from 31MP - 80MP.

Phase One Significant Unmatched Historical Technology Landmarks
*   First firewire-based digital back with high quality single shot capture (back in the late 1990's).
*   Only digital backs produced capable of performing long exposure times that can run up to an hour or longer (despite competitors having access to the same exact sensor).
*   Only digital backs with Sensor Plus technology, allowing one to choose (currently) 80MP or 20MP captures and adjust sensitivity and capture rates,
        while still recording data over the entire sensor area with no crop.
*   Highest resolution display screen of any professional still camera, and includes iPhone/iPad-oriented interface technology.
*   Only digital back with a USB option (that can use USB 2 in the field with a MacBook Air, for example, or USB 3 with a MBP or Mac Pro with a USB 3
        Interface Card).
*   Utilizes Capture One software, which is by far, the best quality software offered for any digital back, and has been for over a decade.
*   There will be more to come.

Phase One consistently maintains a 2 year digital back sensor and technology lead over Hasselblad. I appreciate the Phase One DF camera for what it is, and I also appreciate the Hasselblad H system for what it is. Heck, we still have clients who steadfastly order Phase One and Leaf/Mamiya backs on Contax 645 cameras, and yes, I appreciate that camera as well. Many of our clients still order upgrades for their H1 and H2 cameras. Minus a few limitations, they don't have to choose between Phase One and Hasselblad digital backs. They can maintain their H cameras and continue to advance with Phase One digital backs.

Considering what Phase One had to work with, I think they have done an excellent job of improving the Mamiya 645 platform, especially by developing the relationship with Schneider as a high quality optical partner. While the Hy6 camera may have been a tempting project, I feel that from a long term growth and developmental standpoint, the choice of Mamiya as a partner will provide superior benefits over time. With Leaf as a division and the formal relationship with Schneider, for all we know the next Phase One cameras may prove to be a more desirable platform than even the Hy6/AFi.  New camera designs take time and money, and as has been noted, 2 new cameras are in development. But for now, there are still many positives for many types of photography with the 645 DF camera, and if its limitations are in the way, a Hasselblad H1/H2 camera can still allow you to go forward with Phase One.

I would also note that Phase One has been a profitable company, even in the wake of this economic period of the past several years. And in addition, within that period, they have acquired complete or controlling interests in 3 major technology companies (Leaf, Mamiya, and Expressions Media). Clearly, Phase One is a strong company and growing.

By the way, David, Leaf had nothing to do with the IQ Series screen technology, which is really not "touch screen" at all, at least not in the way that the Leaf Aptus is "touch screen". You don't actually have to touch it. Instead, it operates via a magnetic field, similar to the way an iPhone or iPad work. I feel the technology and interface of the IQ series is quite significant and will - to many - make other products feel clunky and slow. In terms of seamless operability, the IQ series will work much like we have become accustomed to with modern devices, rather than the inexorable buttons and menus of previous capture systems.



Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2011, 02:04:22 AM »
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Ah!  Battle Swords drawn!  Grin

The HC120II, HC50II were introduced last year.  The HTS and 35-90 are also fairly recent additions.

The reason why we have not introduced more lenses is that we already have a complete range of Autofocus and Central Shutter lenses.

Does the CF lens adapter have full aperture / stop down control?

Saying that Phase One has been two years ahead in terms of digital back technology depends in what you are looking for in a digital back.  Outright Megapixels?  Sure, I will conceed that.  But if it is anything else with regards to a system, there are many more advantages to Hasselblad.

David
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David Grover
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« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2011, 03:20:39 AM »
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In fact one reason I gave up on the Mamiya and went to Hass was their poorly built camera body
the Hass camera is very nicely built, although heavy

their lenses, well lets say I am not the biggest fan of Fujinon, but still better than the Mamiya, and you can always go back to their CF although you lose the auto aperture ability

and you can choose to use a wasit level finder like a true MF camera, although the major problem with this is that the CCD is landscape not portrait, and Hass back doesnt offer the rotating CCD like the Phase/Leaf, so you are limited to landscape composition on this
I would love to see Hass come up with a solution for this, something similar to the rotation CCD

some talk about the 1/800sec shutter, yes I would like to see 1/4000, or at least 1/2000, but it isnt the end of the world, if you must shoot in large aperture under the sun you can use a ND filter

for the HCD lenses, its good to hear from actual user, but I really hope to hear from Hass themselves though, if they now say HCD works on the H4D60 then why separate a HCD line, was it purely a marketing thing intend to charge us more?

I would say the Hass has still a lot of potential, they started on the right path, they just need to continue doing the right thing

whereas the Phase/Leaf, their backs are really in front of Hass, but they dont have the camera to back it up
perhaps one could use a Phase/Leaf back on a H4D, but I personally think you might as well stick with the Hass back


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« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2011, 03:56:48 AM »
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In fact one reason I gave up on the Mamiya and went to Hass was their poorly built camera body
the Hass camera is very nicely built, although heavy

When I tested the DF and H4 I found it quite the opposite. I thought the H4 was a wonderful camera and wished it functioned with other (Phase One) backs and the build quality of the lenses was amazing but I didn't feel it was better made. Yes, it had more buttons and technology but the battery grip seemed to creak and moan when you held it and the handgrip LCD area, which offered a weath of information at a glance seemed a bit cheaply made to me.

In comparison, the DF was very basic and straight forward and seemed very agricultural next to the H4 and that included its build. A camera lump and apart from the battery chamber very well put together. The lenses (I tried the 120 macro, 28mm and leaf shutter ones) were not as well made as the Fujinon ones but the optics were razor sharp and better to my eyes.

Also, although it was a couple of days apart, I thought the viewfinder image in the DF to be brighter than the H4 even though everything I had read suggested different. Could of been a lens thing, I'm not sure but that was my instant feeling.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 03:59:32 AM by gazwas » Logged

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Christoph C. Feldhaim
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« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2011, 03:59:28 AM »
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So - we call it a draw?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eMkth8FWno
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« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2011, 04:25:26 AM »
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Lol.

Yes, lets.
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David Grover
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« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2011, 04:26:13 AM »
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their lenses, well lets say I am not the biggest fan of Fujinon, but still better than the Mamiya, and you can always go back to their CF although you lose the auto aperture ability


Hi Donald,

Auto aperture is retained.
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David Grover
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