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Author Topic: H4D40 and P40+  (Read 14561 times)
MrSmith
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« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2011, 06:33:57 AM »
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both systems have their merits.
it's just a shame that camera/back manufacturers are limited by what the sensor manufacturers decide to produce.
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donaldt
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« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2011, 07:53:04 AM »
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I mean when I stop down the lens I have to physically stop it down before shooting right?
I thought only CFE gets also aperture

Hi Donald,

Auto aperture is retained.
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donaldt
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« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2011, 07:56:42 AM »
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maybe I should give the newest update of the mamiya a test
I tested the Hy6 and although its great
I wasnt convinced that it would provide the same support and I am worried about its future

what is the difference between Leaf/Phase/Mamiya body anyways?

When I tested the DF and H4 I found it quite the opposite. I thought the H4 was a wonderful camera and wished it functioned with other (Phase One) backs and the build quality of the lenses was amazing but I didn't feel it was better made. Yes, it had more buttons and technology but the battery grip seemed to creak and moan when you held it and the handgrip LCD area, which offered a weath of information at a glance seemed a bit cheaply made to me.

In comparison, the DF was very basic and straight forward and seemed very agricultural next to the H4 and that included its build. A camera lump and apart from the battery chamber very well put together. The lenses (I tried the 120 macro, 28mm and leaf shutter ones) were not as well made as the Fujinon ones but the optics were razor sharp and better to my eyes.

Also, although it was a couple of days apart, I thought the viewfinder image in the DF to be brighter than the H4 even though everything I had read suggested different. Could of been a lens thing, I'm not sure but that was my instant feeling.
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2011, 10:15:40 AM »
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I mean when I stop down the lens I have to physically stop it down before shooting right?
I thought only CFE gets also aperture


The lens remains open regardless of aperture set.  When you shoot, the aperture is stopped down by the camera.

You still have to manually set your working aperture of course, there is no way to do that - other than turning the aperture ring.

The H light meter will tell you what aperture to set.

D
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2011, 11:17:28 AM »
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Ah!  Battle Swords drawn!  Grin

The HC120II, HC50II were introduced last year.  The HTS and 35-90 are also fairly recent additions.

The reason why we have not introduced more lenses is that we already have a complete range of Autofocus and Central Shutter lenses.

Does the CF lens adapter have full aperture / stop down control?

Saying that Phase One has been two years ahead in terms of digital back technology depends in what you are looking for in a digital back.  Outright Megapixels?  Sure, I will conceed that.  But if it is anything else with regards to a system, there are many more advantages to Hasselblad.

David


Yes - Flame On!  Cheesy


Does the CF Lens Adapter have full aperture/stop down control? Why David, that sounds like a negative leading question from a competitor and eerily familiar to someone you and I have both talked about!  Wink (inside joke between David and I)

No, the Phase One/Mamiya CF/FE Lens Adapter does not have full aperture stop down. So, one penalty point, but one gold star for being compatible with FE lenses (since the Hasselblad CF Lens Adapter is not).

Are the 50mm and 120mm new designs? Or updates of the existing lenses? Should they really count? The HTS does have optics inside it, so I suppose you could count that, but seems like a stretch. The reason I note the recent additions is that while yes, Hasselblad has a full lineup, Phase One/Mamiya has been more productive in the past several years in terms of new Leaf Shutter lenses and indeed, new lenses overall. If you count focal plane shutter lenses then the recent lens additions are:

Schneider
*55/2.8 Leaf Shutter
*80/2.8 Leaf Shutter
*110/2.8 Leaf Shutter
*150/3.5 Leaf Shutter
*120/5.6 Tilt Shift Focal Plane

Mamiya
*35mm/3.5 Focal Plane
*120mm/4 Macro AF Focal Plane

I stand by my statement regarding Phase One digital back innovational advantages.
*Ultra Long Exposure
*Variable Resolution
*Variable Capture Rate
*Ultra High Retina-Type Display
*Larger Sensors
*Higher Megapixel Count
*Multiple Interfaces, including firewire and USB
*UDMA 6 compatible media ready

Hasselblad has either never matched these capabilities with their digital backs or at best, been years behind. Other than, yes, that Hasselblad digital backs can accept information from their own camera system, which adds some functionality and corrects deficiencies, please tell me what innovational advantages Hasselblad digital backs have over Phase One digital backs (from a current or historical perspective). I would also point out that the above unique Phase One innovations are available to any user on many different camera platforms, including view and technical cameras, and yes, Hasselblad H cameras (H1/H2). This is not a bash of closed/open. I've never really cared for nor joined that argument. Simply pointing out that the Phase One digital back innovations are not restricted only to Hasselbald H users, which I feel is relevant.


Steve Hendrix

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EricWHiss
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« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2011, 11:58:46 AM »
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Schneider
*55/2.8 Leaf Shutter
*80/2.8 Leaf Shutter
*110/2.8 Leaf Shutter
*150/3.5 Leaf Shutter
*120/5.6 Tilt Shift Focal Plane


Steve,
The leaf shutter lenses are certainly a great boon to the platform, but I have to say the 80mm for mamiya is not very similar to the 80mm Schneider made for the Rollei (and maybe other 6x6 cameras?).  I shot the 80mm on the 645DF with aptus 12 side by side with the schneider 80mm on 6008AF with CF-39MS back fitted.   Too many variables to draw a straight conclusion but it appeared the 80mm for mamiya/phase lacked the punch of the Xenotar and had more distortion as well (but was well corrected for in C1).   I think I read that Schneider only assisted with the design of these but didn't make them correct?  I would like to have tested the 120 tilt shift as that should be a useful lens.
Eric
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2011, 12:29:19 PM »
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Steve,
The leaf shutter lenses are certainly a great boon to the platform, but I have to say the 80mm for mamiya is not very similar to the 80mm Schneider made for the Rollei (and maybe other 6x6 cameras?).  I shot the 80mm on the 645DF with aptus 12 side by side with the schneider 80mm on 6008AF with CF-39MS back fitted.   Too many variables to draw a straight conclusion but it appeared the 80mm for mamiya/phase lacked the punch of the Xenotar and had more distortion as well (but was well corrected for in C1).   I think I read that Schneider only assisted with the design of these but didn't make them correct?  I would like to have tested the 120 tilt shift as that should be a useful lens.
Eric



I had a long discussion with Ulrich Eilsberger last fall about the Schneider involvement with the lenses and the commitment to the platform.

http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/11/17/an-impressive-stable-of-technology/

What I took from the discussion was that the idea of who does what has been over simplified when put in terms of "yes, but whose glass", "yes, but who makes it". And others can pipe in on lens production and processes, but Schneider is certainly responsible for the design (or re-design) and measurement for the optical components themselves, which is a critical factor naturally in the process of the manufacturing of the lens itself. At least on some of them, I don't know how much of the actual compositing and manufacturing Schneider will bear the load of as this relationship continues to evolve.

So, the new Schneider lenses for Mamiya wouldn't necessarily be similar to a previous Rollei-based Schneider. It's a new design, and made for a different camera platform, of course. The significance I draw is that Schneider is now a partner to this platform and the partnership is formal and long term. Having Schneider as a partner to create lenses for your camera platform (not just the DF camera, but future cameras) for the next 10 years is a very good thing IMO.


Steve Hendrix
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jduncan
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« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2011, 05:03:34 AM »
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Phase One consistently maintains a 2 year digital back sensor and technology lead over Hasselblad.

Steve Hendrix


This is a fairly new but interesting bit. The only case this happen was the P65+ vs H4D-60.  Your confidence that this will be the case again (with the 80mpixel sensor) tell me that the exclusive deal btw Dalsa and Phase continues. It is important to notice that the advantage is in only one sensor. Of course Phase One has sensor plus. In the other hand, it looks like  Hasselblad chipset hardly can handle the 60mpixel back. I still believe the H4D is the better option for a lot of people (including mysef) because:

1. Is the most complete, mature system.
2. Most people don't have the money to buy the very high end.

best regards
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 05:16:22 AM by jduncan » Logged

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jduncan
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« Reply #48 on: March 23, 2011, 05:15:08 AM »
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Ah!  Battle Swords drawn!  Grin

The HC120II, HC50II were introduced last year.  The HTS and 35-90 are also fairly recent additions.

The reason why we have not introduced more lenses is that we already have a complete range of Autofocus and Central Shutter lenses.

David

No you don't. In fact you are the only company that has a complete system that  don't have a >100mm fast lens (f2.8 ) of any kind. Notice that I am aware that Phase can't be called  a complete system and they know.  They are working as fast as they can to solve the issues. they are makin visible progress. If hasselblad continues to have the complacency mind set you are for a surprise. You can tell from the iq series, wireless adapter and the Sensor+ technology that Phase one is investing a lot. They are investing like a winner. We can have an inside into the Phase one mind by listening carefully to  Michael R. He stated  the time frame Hasselblad needed to build the H. How long has since Hasselblad close the system?

Finally let not forget about Pentax.  If not careful Hasselblad is about to become compress from below by Pentax and by Phase from the top.
Best regards,
James
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 05:18:34 AM by jduncan » Logged

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erickb
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« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2011, 07:44:37 AM »
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1. Is the most complete, mature system.
2. Most people don't have the money to buy the very high end.
3. who needs 80 MP ?
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #50 on: March 23, 2011, 08:38:37 AM »
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3. who needs 80 MP ?


Erick - you better stop right now!  Angry

 Grin Grin Grin


Steve Hendrix
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erickb
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« Reply #51 on: March 23, 2011, 08:42:32 AM »
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 Grin
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #52 on: March 23, 2011, 08:49:43 AM »
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This is a fairly new but interesting bit. The only case this happen was the P65+ vs H4D-60.  Your confidence that this will be the case again (with the 80mpixel sensor) tell me that the exclusive deal btw Dalsa and Phase continues. It is important to notice that the advantage is in only one sensor. Of course Phase One has sensor plus. In the other hand, it looks like  Hasselblad chipset hardly can handle the 60mpixel back. I still believe the H4D is the better option for a lot of people (including mysef) because:

1. Is the most complete, mature system.
2. Most people don't have the money to buy the very high end.

best regards


jduncan -

I don't refer only to the delivery time of the 60MP Dalsa sensor. And also, I don't believe the 2 year difference in delivery time had anything to do with exclusivity. Shortly after Phase One announced the P65+, Hasselblad announced the H3D-60.

http://www.dcviews.com/press/PhaseOne-P65.htm
http://www.mydigitallife.info/2008/10/02/hasselblad-readies-60-megapixel-camera-h3dii-60/

I also refer to compact flash-based portability. For quite some time after Phase One had a CF Card slot, Hasselblad (Imacon) still only offered the Imagebank option for non-tethered shooting. Hasselbald never achieved a long exposure possibility past 30 seconds while Phase One offered long exposures up to an hour with the same Kodak-based sensors. Hasselblad has nothing like Sensor Plus and instead, every capture must be at full resolution and the ISO range and capture rate are limited compared to the same Dalsa-based sensors with the P40+/65+ and IQ backs. I don't expect Hasselblad to offer anything approaching the technology of the IQ series for quite some time. If they do, then things will have changed. But there's no evidence of that thus far.

I don't think it is an invalid point or even that debatable, really. Hasselblad makes a fine digital back, but it has always been behind Phase One IMO.


Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #53 on: March 23, 2011, 08:59:17 AM »
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Steve,

I have never seen a multishot P1. Let alone a 6-shot 200MP P1 (count to think of it I have not yet seen one of those from HB either). I think HB is 2 years behind in sensor technology is a statement exaggerated and way too bold. In some areas maybe, in others? I don't know. Granted, P1 has some really compelling stuff at the moment. I also believe that at this moment HB is behind P1 in general with regard to the sensor, things can change over time though.

Personally I think both P1 as well as Hasselblad are staring at each other way too much and forgetting the true danger is DSLR. A person buying into P1, HB or Leaf is still someone using MF...

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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #54 on: March 23, 2011, 09:43:20 AM »
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Steve,

I have never seen a multishot P1. Let alone a 6-shot 200MP P1 (count to think of it I have not yet seen one of those from HB either). I think HB is 2 years behind in sensor technology is a statement exaggerated and way too bold. In some areas maybe, in others? I don't know. Granted, P1 has some really compelling stuff at the moment. I also believe that at this moment HB is behind P1 in general with regard to the sensor, things can change over time though.

Personally I think both P1 as well as Hasselblad are staring at each other way too much and forgetting the true danger is DSLR. A person buying into P1, HB or Leaf is still someone using MF...




Agreed - although multi-shot is not an exclusive Hasselblad technology. Leaf and Sinar were doing multi-shot for years before Hasselblad. And while multi-shot has advantages, those advantages have diminished in recent years, and it is only offered in one sensor product, wereas the Phase One technologies have been offered across numerous sensor products (16mp, 18mp, 22mp, 30mp, 39mp, 40mp, 60mp, 80mp...). But fair point, all of the digital back products each have their own unique feature set.

While perceptively it may feel as if Phase One and Hasselblad are focused only on competing with each other, I don't feel that is the case at all. They are very aware of DSLR infringement into their category and have been for years. The impulse is to assume they are blind or stupid, when instead they are limited by technology, development time and costs. If Canon/Nikon were limited to CCD-based sensors, their market penetration with medium format users might be less than what it has been. With that said, scaling sensor technology that is as forgiving of high temperature and power requirements as CMOS sensors are has been on the blocks for quite some time. That it is not here yet does not mean they are blind to what Canon/Nikon have accomplished. Instead, I think they have done a good job of emphasizing the strengths and advantages they do possess. And frankly, I feel that a large part of what separates Canon/Nikon from medium format is cost, more than features.

Even if Phase One comes out with a 54 x 40 CMOS-type sensor in 2014, I don't expect it to have a large impact on the market that shoots with Canon/Nikon because of the price. That is why to a degree they need to keep their eye on their own ball and what it does well in addition to making these products easier to use and more functional along the lines of Canon/Nikon. if only because, regardless of the cost, that is what users expect today and medium format has to address that issue. I believe the IQ Series are a significant step in that direction.


Steve Hendrix
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #55 on: March 23, 2011, 10:51:42 AM »
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I was thinking about the MS backs too, Dusbak.   In my  own tests the old 16 shot microstep backs (from what year 2004?) still produce a superior file to the new 80mp backs. In my tests the big differences between the 528c and the Aptus 12 (IQ 180 the same?) were in the color and rendered tonality, but the 528c also got more detail.  I only had the phase/mamiya/schneider 80mm lens which I already wrote about above - perhaps with a better lens like in your map tests vs the H4D-50MS it would be closer?.    Anyhow the new 80mp backs definitely offer an advantage in the single shot, but its still not the best IQ, IMHO, and the thought that a now 7 year old back can beat the latest and greatest prefaces all my thinking about which company has the most advanced technology.  We always gain something at the expense of something else.  For example, the long exposures that the phase plus series backs had has been lost in the p65 and newer phase IQ series.   

To me both Phase and Hasselblad have their own advantages.  Phase has the C1 software and the new IQ screen/interface and long exposure in the older backs. Hasselblad has the camera, the HTS, and MS backs including the 6shot - 200mp back.  If you are not using an H body or 645DF, I think Hasselblad has the better integration - certainly with the technical cameras and stuff like the lens control.  And Phocus is coming up fast, so hard to rule it out.  Their DAC seem to be more comprehensive plus the remote operations by iphone is cool.      And in a discussion about technical leaders, Leaf needs to be added to the mix because they have the rotating sensor, sensor flex, the articulating touch screen.
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MrSmith
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« Reply #56 on: March 23, 2011, 10:54:25 AM »
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"Even if Phase One comes out with a 54 x 40 CMOS-type sensor in 2014"

are phase developing their own sensor now? or will they (like the others) be tied to what the sensor manufacturers produce?
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bcooter
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« Reply #57 on: March 23, 2011, 12:04:27 PM »
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comes out with a 54 x 40

Native 54 x 40 has been around for ages.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vKYKgsxSuQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

IMO

BC
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #58 on: March 23, 2011, 04:06:10 PM »
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I was thinking about the MS backs too, Dusbak.   In my  own tests the old 16 shot microstep backs (from what year 2004?) still produce a superior file to the new 80mp backs. In my tests the big differences between the 528c and the Aptus 12 (IQ 180 the same?) were in the color and rendered tonality, but the 528c also got more detail.  I only had the phase/mamiya/schneider 80mm lens which I already wrote about above - perhaps with a better lens like in your map tests vs the H4D-50MS it would be closer?.    Anyhow the new 80mp backs definitely offer an advantage in the single shot, but its still not the best IQ, IMHO, and the thought that a now 7 year old back can beat the latest and greatest prefaces all my thinking about which company has the most advanced technology.  We always gain something at the expense of something else.  For example, the long exposures that the phase plus series backs had has been lost in the p65 and newer phase IQ series.   

To me both Phase and Hasselblad have their own advantages.  Phase has the C1 software and the new IQ screen/interface and long exposure in the older backs. Hasselblad has the camera, the HTS, and MS backs including the 6shot - 200mp back.  If you are not using an H body or 645DF, I think Hasselblad has the better integration - certainly with the technical cameras and stuff like the lens control.  And Phocus is coming up fast, so hard to rule it out.  Their DAC seem to be more comprehensive plus the remote operations by iphone is cool.      And in a discussion about technical leaders, Leaf needs to be added to the mix because they have the rotating sensor, sensor flex, the articulating touch screen.


As someone who has sold multi-shot digital backs from 6MP  - 39MP, I am certainly familiar with the quality difference between multi and single shot. But I have also seen that difference diminish as resolution has increased. The differences between 6, 11, 16, 22MP were huge, but they are much smaller with each new generation, due to the image quality gain of single shot. But certainly, multi-shot is still a great option in the right environment. Of course, so are scanning backs.

You did lose me a little bit when you said Hasselblad has better integration with technical cameras? Also, I've used DAC extensively as well as lens corrections via Capture One, and while DAC works great, I actually find it not comprehensive but rather limited, as there is no manual override option, no ability to customize corrections, no purple fringing correction, no negative vignetting, no positive or negative light falloff, no edge sharpness mask, etc, as in Capture One.

You're right, Leaf has their own unique feature set, which is why they will retain their identity and not be blended into the Phase One family. Their technology is still very different in many ways from Phase One.


Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #59 on: March 23, 2011, 04:48:54 PM »
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You did lose me a little bit when you said Hasselblad has better integration with technical cameras? Also, I've used DAC extensively as well as lens corrections via Capture One, and while DAC works great, I actually find it not comprehensive but rather limited, as there is no manual override option, no ability to customize corrections, no purple fringing correction, no negative vignetting, no positive or negative light falloff, no edge sharpness mask, etc, as in Capture One.

Steve Hendrix

My comment was mostly related to better capture of Exif, remote control of lens and shutter settings etc through Phocus.  Sorry the technical camera might have been misleading. I meant to include 3rd party cameras too in the integration comment.     RE DAC, you can click it on or off in phocus same as in C1.   
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