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Author Topic: H4D40 and P40+  (Read 14274 times)
Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #60 on: March 23, 2011, 05:20:39 PM »
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My comment was mostly related to better capture of Exif, remote control of lens and shutter settings etc through Phocus.  Sorry the technical camera might have been misleading. I meant to include 3rd party cameras too in the integration comment.     RE DAC, you can click it on or off in phocus same as in C1.   


I see. I don't think there is any advantage for either when it comes to Exif data or remote control of lens/shutter settings for 3rd party cameras. For DAC, yes, you can click it on or off, as you can with Capture One. My comments have referred to the additional manual control you have in Capture One as well as the expanded tool set for lens corrections that is lacking in Phocus DAC..


Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #61 on: March 23, 2011, 10:29:35 PM »
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Steve,
Just one example: I enjoy using Phocus to change the aperture and shutter speeds on my 6008AF with any of the ixpress or CF backs attached.  I think I can also do this with my iphone.   The shutter values and aperture values are recorded in the EXIF data for these shots. None of this is possible with the phase backs.  That's what I mean by integration.  If you look at the list of cameras and platforms supported by the CF backs you'd be amazed.  It's quite extensive.  Sure you can mount a phase back to a lot of cameras and buy the ridiculously expensive cables to help it stay awake etc, but I don't think that's fully integrated like the Hasselblad stuff.  Plus they have support guys who know the stuff and e-mail back right away.   Phase has their forums (and a few guys like Doug) but its hit and miss. Some things they know well and other things not so well.  

Eric
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 11:21:48 PM by EricWHiss » Logged

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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #62 on: March 24, 2011, 02:07:59 AM »
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Yes - Flame On!  Cheesy


Does the CF Lens Adapter have full aperture/stop down control? Why David, that sounds like a negative leading question from a competitor and eerily familiar to someone you and I have both talked about!  Wink (inside joke between David and I)

No, the Phase One/Mamiya CF/FE Lens Adapter does not have full aperture stop down. So, one penalty point, but one gold star for being compatible with FE lenses (since the Hasselblad CF Lens Adapter is not).

Are the 50mm and 120mm new designs? Or updates of the existing lenses? Should they really count? The HTS does have optics inside it, so I suppose you could count that, but seems like a stretch. The reason I note the recent additions is that while yes, Hasselblad has a full lineup, Phase One/Mamiya has been more productive in the past several years in terms of new Leaf Shutter lenses and indeed, new lenses overall. If you count focal plane shutter lenses then the recent lens additions are:

Schneider
*55/2.8 Leaf Shutter
*80/2.8 Leaf Shutter
*110/2.8 Leaf Shutter
*150/3.5 Leaf Shutter
*120/5.6 Tilt Shift Focal Plane


The HC120II and HC50II are complete redesigns.  Different elements, different groupings.  Completely new lenses.

I don't consider the HTS as it comes under exactly the same complex design process as any other lens.  It is also useable with five lenses.  More efficient than building just one T/S lens.

The 120 TS is based on an old design and can't really be called new.
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #63 on: March 24, 2011, 10:56:35 AM »
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The HC120II and HC50II are complete redesigns.  Different elements, different groupings.  Completely new lenses.

I don't consider the HTS as it comes under exactly the same complex design process as any other lens.  It is also useable with five lenses.  More efficient than building just one T/S lens.

The 120 TS is based on an old design and can't really be called new.



This lens has never been offered for Mamiya/Phase One. We'll call it even if you want. I am considering from the users standpoint, what new choices have emerged in terms of focal lengths or alternative glass at the same focal length, and this lens has never been available for any platform, certainly not for the Mamiya/Phase platform.

I'll concede new lenses on your HC120II and HC50II if you'll concede my Schneider 120T/S. Deal?  Wink


Steve Hendrix
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #64 on: March 24, 2011, 11:39:45 AM »
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Steve,
Just one example: I enjoy using Phocus to change the aperture and shutter speeds on my 6008AF with any of the ixpress or CF backs attached.  I think I can also do this with my iphone.   The shutter values and aperture values are recorded in the EXIF data for these shots. None of this is possible with the phase backs.  That's what I mean by integration.  If you look at the list of cameras and platforms supported by the CF backs you'd be amazed.  It's quite extensive.  Sure you can mount a phase back to a lot of cameras and buy the ridiculously expensive cables to help it stay awake etc, but I don't think that's fully integrated like the Hasselblad stuff.  Plus they have support guys who know the stuff and e-mail back right away.   Phase has their forums (and a few guys like Doug) but its hit and miss. Some things they know well and other things not so well.  

Eric



Eric - I would not be amazed at how many cameras the CF backs can go on. I used to sell them.... Roll Eyes

It would be nice if there were more digital back options for those cameras...

http://www.hasselbladusa.com/products/digital-backs/cf39-and-cf39-ms.aspx

I recall attending a Hasselblad dealer conference in 2008 where Hasselblad told everyone in the audience that in 3 years no one would make digital backs anymore, only integrated/dedicated camera systems.


I do admire the ability to control the shutter speed and aperture with Phocus - especially with control of focusing and mirror rise with the H system. However, aperture and shutter speeds certainly do get recorded with a Phase One back on any H1/H2 camera and of course with the Mamiya/Phase One camera (not sure about other cameras). And you can control aperture shutter speed with a Phase One DF camera from Capture One software.

Manufacturer support has plenty of good and bad stories all around. Hasselblad does a good job, but there are also advantages to Phase One support. From either a dealer or end user perspective, there is significantly more real time information available concerning status of repairs for troubleshooting than any other medium format company (and I've worked with support from every one of them).


Steve Hendrix


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design_freak
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« Reply #65 on: March 30, 2011, 04:57:39 AM »
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Sorry to say, but you have right !!! They have a very bad communication inside company. 10 days for repair is "virtual". Get information about repair is sometimes impossible. Even if your dealer do everything to help you...
It's only Label right now. If they don't do something, they will lost everything. They don't understand how important is good relations with customers. ( service and support) It's hard if you wait for equipment more then 1.5 year... And they do not see nothing wrong with that!!!

Best regards,
Design Freak



Manufacturer support has plenty of good and bad stories all around. Hasselblad does a good job, but there are also advantages to Phase One support. From either a dealer or end user perspective, there is significantly more real time information available concerning status of repairs for troubleshooting than any other medium format company (and I've worked with support from every one of them).


Steve Hendrix



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DF

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« Reply #66 on: March 30, 2011, 11:06:59 AM »
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The HC120II and HC50II are complete redesigns.  Different elements, different groupings.  Completely new lenses.

I don't consider the HTS as it comes under exactly the same complex design process as any other lens.  It is also useable with five lenses.  More efficient than building just one T/S lens.

The 120 TS is based on an old design and can't really be called new.




This lens has never been offered for Mamiya/Phase One. We'll call it even if you want. I am considering from the users standpoint, what new choices have emerged in terms of focal lengths or alternative glass at the same focal length, and this lens has never been available for any platform, certainly not for the Mamiya/Phase platform.

I'll concede new lenses on your HC120II and HC50II if you'll concede my Schneider 120T/S. Deal?  Wink


Steve Hendrix


Sorry David, but I will need to update my post with 2 more lenses due in 2011:


*Schneider 75mm - 150mm Leaf Shutter
*Schneider 240mm Leaf Shutter

Trying to get further details on aperture, specifications, etc.

 Smiley


Steve Hendrix
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Steve Hendrix
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BlasR
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« Reply #67 on: March 30, 2011, 11:58:39 AM »
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Steve,

how you can update if you still don't have them?
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #68 on: March 30, 2011, 12:06:01 PM »
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Steve,

how you can update if you still don't have them?


Blas -

Because I can.

I will add the caveat that lenses can and do at times not meet delivery dates.

It is certainly ok if David doesn't accept these, and then I have to buy him another beer.


Steve Hendrix
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #69 on: March 30, 2011, 03:50:58 PM »
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Not accepted. 

Beer please!    Tongue
 
Grin
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David Grover
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #70 on: March 30, 2011, 04:37:23 PM »
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Not accepted. 

Beer please!    Tongue
 
Grin



Rats!

Beer credits to me for any near term beer outlay for when they ship? (a beerback?)


Steve Hendrix


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bcooter
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« Reply #71 on: March 31, 2011, 12:22:22 PM »
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Rats!

Beer credits to me for any near term beer outlay for when they ship? (a beerback?)


Steve Hendrix





Since both you gentlemen seem to be online monitoring your beer tally, I have an equipment question.

As of today everything we shoot has a video component.

This brings two things to light regardless of camera format.

First is ISO.  Right now we're in to pre production on a large shoot in a multiple series of locations.  We'll use sunlight aided by crafted lighting, lifestyle situations that are completely lit using crafted light and the creative brief calls for a great deal of flexibility in what we deliver. 

High quality stills, high quality motion imagery and many options of every major scene.

In going over our equipment list what we really need is high megapixel still camera that shoots video from the same position, though with many scenes would require 800 to 1000 iso if we use continuous lights, or the second option is to use medium format with strobe and mixed daylight for the stills, then double light the set with continuous lights (hmi' and leds) and shoot the motion with the RED.

The third option would be to shoot the 5d type of camera with continuous light for the stills and either continue with the 5d for video or add the RED never changing the lighting.

So my point is as good and welcome it is that both of your companies are adding lenses and improving your product, what are the plans for higher iso for continuous lighting, or even the ability to shoot motion with the same camera?

The iso part is very important as our studios continue to invest in more continuous sources, as you know even 800 watt hmi fixtures easily get to $6,000 a fixture so for a large production it is easy to get to $30,000 in  lighting and this is just scratching the surface. 

If I want to add medium format into the mix, we somewhat double our work load double lighting a set to work in flash and continuous.

So since you guys seem to drink a lot of beer, would you wait until you get a good buzz on, (so you've dropped your guard) and let us know your next major plans.

IMO

BC

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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #72 on: March 31, 2011, 10:56:10 PM »
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Since both you gentlemen seem to be online monitoring your beer tally, I have an equipment question.

As of today everything we shoot has a video component.

This brings two things to light regardless of camera format.

First is ISO.  Right now we're in to pre production on a large shoot in a multiple series of locations.  We'll use sunlight aided by crafted lighting, lifestyle situations that are completely lit using crafted light and the creative brief calls for a great deal of flexibility in what we deliver. 

High quality stills, high quality motion imagery and many options of every major scene.

In going over our equipment list what we really need is high megapixel still camera that shoots video from the same position, though with many scenes would require 800 to 1000 iso if we use continuous lights, or the second option is to use medium format with strobe and mixed daylight for the stills, then double light the set with continuous lights (hmi' and leds) and shoot the motion with the RED.

The third option would be to shoot the 5d type of camera with continuous light for the stills and either continue with the 5d for video or add the RED never changing the lighting.

So my point is as good and welcome it is that both of your companies are adding lenses and improving your product, what are the plans for higher iso for continuous lighting, or even the ability to shoot motion with the same camera?

The iso part is very important as our studios continue to invest in more continuous sources, as you know even 800 watt hmi fixtures easily get to $6,000 a fixture so for a large production it is easy to get to $30,000 in  lighting and this is just scratching the surface. 

If I want to add medium format into the mix, we somewhat double our work load double lighting a set to work in flash and continuous.

So since you guys seem to drink a lot of beer, would you wait until you get a good buzz on, (so you've dropped your guard) and let us know your next major plans.

IMO

BC




Well, I don't have the buzz yet, and I would only be a speculative prognosticator in the case, but my thoughts are that clearly medium format size CCD's of today are not going to be the solution, although there have been some pretty impressive high ISO models released over the years (H4D-40, P30+, P21+), but nothing that has produced a usable quality video application. Incorporating the video component I'm pretty sure will mean some altered form of CCD or CMOS-type technology, and the challenge there is scaling it to the size they want, while also maintaining the pure image quality that medium format is known for. I believe the thinking is that a product will not be released in a large sensor that does not possess the same image quality of the CCD sensors of today, regardless of whether it can include a high quality video capture component/high ISO ability.

I don't know that Leaf's past experience with CMOS technology helps in this event, but it's possible.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0001/00011301cmos6mp.asp


And I will say that a digital back chassis designed for such a thing exists with the IQ digital backs. Since the previous Phase One chassis was almost a 9 year affair, it's likely the IQ design was produced in mind for things to come. Even the ability to use Live View in camera (even though it is still the same mediocre, slow frame rate CCD-based Live View) is a promising notion that, along with all the processing power that was built into the chassis (the 9 core processors, their own IOS, etc) promotes the idea that they have built it, but will it come? It's clearly difficult, otherwise, they'd have already done it. I guess time will tell.


Steve Hendrix
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bcooter
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« Reply #73 on: April 01, 2011, 02:31:48 AM »
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Incorporating the video component I'm pretty sure will mean some altered form of CCD or CMOS-type technology, and the challenge there is scaling it to the size they want,


Whether this means anything or not, this is rumor that Sony has announced an 8k x 2k cmos motion camera, with 16 bit raw footage.

Now whether this can be used for stills or not, what the form factor is, or the cost is anyone's guess, but it seems the pixel race is not limited to still cameras.

Interesting though.

IMO

BC
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fredjeang
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« Reply #74 on: April 01, 2011, 04:28:30 PM »
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But that would be relevant in the costs if the back could handle 1600-3200 isos with high quality.

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« Reply #75 on: April 01, 2011, 04:42:09 PM »
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Hello,

If there was a back out there that could shoot 1600-3200 ISO full sensor and no moiré I would buy one.

Simon
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Simon Harper
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fredjeang
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« Reply #76 on: April 01, 2011, 04:48:05 PM »
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Hello,

If there was a back out there that could shoot 1600-3200 ISO full sensor and no moiré I would buy one.

Simon
Hey, aren't we the first of april?

Ps: without moire? that would not be normal ! but still, if they come with a high isos quality back (with video module of course...), even with moire that would be like if Seti had find an alien signal.

Oh, and I forgot to mention: with an Ipad live view application please.
 
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« Reply #77 on: April 01, 2011, 05:16:33 PM »
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Hello,

The days of me spend money on medium format are over. I have a full Mamiya RZ 6x7, Mamiya 645AFD and  Sinar P2 kit plus my trusted 5 year old Leaf Aptus 75 which just keeps on trucking along.

The system I'm putting my spare cash into is Nikon, just this year I have purchased a 14-24, 24mm PC, 35, 50 and 85mm G lenses as well as 4 SB900 flash units and the new pocket wizards.

I did an 11 hour shoot this week for a large hotel in Auckland shooting interiors and talent in 2 of there new bars. Using ISO’s from 100 –800 and combining the ambient light with the SB900’s the shoot was a breeze.

What I am looking forward to is the Nikon D4X when that comes out I recon it will between 36-38 pixels and have awesome 1600-3200ISO using Nikon’s new CMOS chip. I’m sure it will have HD Video, but personally I have no interest in moving pictures (sorry James).

So now all I have to do is keep my clients happy and make lots of money and wait for Nikon to repair there facilities.

Cheers

Simon
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Simon Harper
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fredjeang
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« Reply #78 on: April 01, 2011, 05:27:28 PM »
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Hello,

The days of me spend money on medium format are over. I have a full Mamiya RZ 6x7, Mamiya 645AFD and  Sinar P2 kit plus my trusted 5 year old Leaf Aptus 75 which just keeps on trucking along.

The system I'm putting my spare cash into is Nikon, just this year I have purchased a 14-24, 24mm PC, 35, 50 and 85mm G lenses as well as 4 SB900 flash units and the new pocket wizards.

I did an 11 hour shoot this week for a large hotel in Auckland shooting interiors and talent in 2 of there new bars. Using ISO’s from 100 –800 and combining the ambient light with the SB900’s the shoot was a breeze.

What I am looking forward to is the Nikon D4X when that comes out I recon it will between 36-38 pixels and have awesome 1600-3200ISO using Nikon’s new CMOS chip. I’m sure it will have HD Video, but personally I have no interest in moving pictures (sorry James).

So now all I have to do is keep my clients happy and make lots of money and wait for Nikon to repair there facilities.

Cheers

Simon

Simon, very nice works in your site. Rediscovering it with great pleasure.
I like very much the particular render of the bowling pic, the surf and bachelor in other sections (have the same atmosphere).

Gosh, since I live in Spain I completly lost to follow the rugby. I don't even know how France is doing now. I suppose that New Zeland is as good as always.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 05:35:44 PM by fredjeang » Logged
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« Reply #79 on: April 01, 2011, 05:38:03 PM »
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Hi Fred,

Thanks, wow that’s going back some years. I shoot it with my Mamiya RZ and Fuji Velva and crossed proceed the film in C41.

Simon
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