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Author Topic: New X-Rite i1Profiler software available now  (Read 35760 times)
digitaldog
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« Reply #120 on: April 13, 2011, 08:48:31 AM »
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The clause in the license that says Xrite has permission to remotely connect to my computer at any time can not be allowed!

Perhaps due to the way the application can update itself? Its great that this product can find a new build and download it for you. Its very common of course in many newer applications. Just a guess. They may need permission from you to do this, not necessarily spy on you. FWIW, I was told there’s no way the software can detect how many profiles you’ve built.
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Andrew Rodney
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Greg_E
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« Reply #121 on: April 13, 2011, 09:09:48 AM »
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Thanks, I'm going to wait on some answers before I pull out the money. The lack of GCR custom curves is a real show stopper unless they have improved the default curves about 10 fold. The only defaults I was ever happy with came from PrintOpen (version 4), the medium and heavy GCR worked very well for me, but once in a while some papers were not good enough and Profiler would correct it since I could make my own curve. And this was all on my own printer and RIP, never on something like a press where things might be very different. For my own use I rarely use RGB profiles so the inability the legally provide those for other individuals would really make that module a waste.

Now it does list camera profile creation with the 24 patch chart and sort of suggests that the larger chart can be used, so you could take a picture of that target, develop the film, and profile your scanner/film/development process much like the digital camera profiling. I know there are issues with camera profiles (I've read some of Andrew's work on the subject), but if you snapped a picture of the chart each setup you might be able to find a nice happy medium that would provide a decent average.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #122 on: April 13, 2011, 09:25:01 AM »
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The lack of GCR custom curves is a real show stopper unless they have improved the default curves about 10 fold.

What’s lacking is a curve editor for the black plate as we had in PROFILER and which I found necessary when building some CMYK profiles for digital presses. And unlike PROFILER, there’s no provisions for specifying UCR or GCR but there are curve ‘presets’ for Min, Light, Med etc (even Med+, Heavy+). Its set with a slider with “click stops” (an odd UI convention when it could have just been a popup menu. There are only 9 possible settings).
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #123 on: April 13, 2011, 09:27:06 AM »
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Now it does list camera profile creation with the 24 patch chart and sort of suggests that the larger chart can be used, so you could take a picture of that target, develop the film, and profile your scanner/film/development process much like the digital camera profiling.

No, it only makes DNG profiles from a Macbeth. You get a copy of Passport (i1P doesn’t build them directly).
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Andrew Rodney
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djoy
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« Reply #124 on: April 13, 2011, 09:37:15 AM »
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What's curious about this is that these new clauses didn't just fall into this, someone thought about it and got it written into the EULA.

Not so curious, it's par for the course for X-Rite.

You remember when the Munki was launched and you could only install the software 3 times? Then the renaming of PM5 and orphaning the owners with regards eligibility to upgrade to i1Profiler?

X-Rite have a history of these tactics, to me it seems clear there is some insidious element high up in X-Rite who regards their customers with contempt, "you'll buy our stuff because you've no other choice, so we'll do what we like".

We need a new player in this market.
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djoy
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« Reply #125 on: April 13, 2011, 09:41:30 AM »
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Depending on what scanners you are using, you can perhaps profile them with SilverFast's Auto IT8 procedure.

IT8 not so good for profiling, HCT much better, but that requires ProfileMaker (maybe i1Match).

Silverfast also have a general reluctance to keep with the times, we're still waiting on Universal Binaries from them some 5 years after Apple stopped selling PowerPC.

The two pieces of software that will prevent me upgrading to Lion are :

X-Rite/Gretag Profilemaker Pro 5
Lasersoft Silverfast

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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #126 on: April 13, 2011, 10:25:45 AM »
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IT8 not so good for profiling, HCT much better, but that requires ProfileMaker (maybe i1Match).

Silverfast also have a general reluctance to keep with the times, we're still waiting on Universal Binaries from them some 5 years after Apple stopped selling PowerPC.

The two pieces of software that will prevent me upgrading to Lion are :

X-Rite/Gretag Profilemaker Pro 5
Lasersoft Silverfast

 Sad

This is largely incorrect. FOGRA has tested SilverFast targets and profiling process extensively and has very positive things to say about it: http://blog.silverfast.com/the-fogra-attests-the-high-quality-of-lasersoft-imagings-it8-targets-and-silverfasts-color-calibration-system/ That link will take you do downloadable PDFs with details. I have also tested this system rather extensively on three scanners and find it to be generally very good.

SilverFast 6.6.2r4 is fully compatible with Snow Leopard and has been for a long time; I have been doing a lot of scanning with this application on my mid-2010 MacPro with Snow Leopard. The application will be compatible with Lion when the time comes, as they have announced here: http://blog.silverfast.com/lion/comment-page-1/#comment-2147.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
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« Reply #127 on: April 13, 2011, 10:48:19 AM »
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This is largely incorrect. FOGRA has tested SilverFast targets and profiling process extensively and has very positive things to say about it: http://blog.silverfast.com/the-fogra-attests-the-high-quality-of-lasersoft-imagings-it8-targets-and-silverfasts-color-calibration-system/ That link will take you do downloadable PDFs with details. I have also tested this system rather extensively on three scanners and find it to be generally very good.

Without wishing to veer too far off topic, the article states they're good IT8 targets, and I have no doubts whatsoever that Lasersoft's IT8 targets are just as good as anyone else's, and the method of using them is very clever and convenient to use. But they're still only IT8 targets, which from what I've read were designed only for visual comparisons, not for calibration or profiling. An HCT will always be better IMHO.

SilverFast 6.6.2r4 is fully compatible with Snow Leopard and has been for a long time; I have been doing a lot of scanning with this application on my mid-2010 MacPro with Snow Leopard. The application will be compatible with Lion when the time comes, as they have announced here: http://blog.silverfast.com/lion/comment-page-1/#comment-2147.

They said the same thing when Leopard first came out, and then Snow Leopard, and they're still using PowerPC binaries with a Universal "launcher".  Undecided

The desktop scanners will no doubt get updated as they're Lasersoft major source of revenue, but those of us who paid not insignificant money for the premium versions of Silverfast for high end scanners will probably get updated several years down the road, or not at all. Regrettably I've learned through bitter experience not to expect too much in responsiveness from Lasersoft, it's a pity, their software is really very very good.
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TylerB
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« Reply #128 on: April 13, 2011, 11:03:08 AM »
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I use my HCT target with Silverfast's profiling ability regularly, I've also used it with Monaco Gold, and EyeOne software. There is nothing inherently tying Silverfast's profiling with any given target. Quality of profile based on target, and quality of profile based on software, are two different issues.
Tyler
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feppe
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« Reply #129 on: April 13, 2011, 11:31:30 AM »
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Only a few people are involved with the EULA and it's undergoing updating as we speak. The final EULA will be effective in all countries. Just stay put until we resolve this and the new EULA is released. No need to jump to conclusions until then.

So you're saying you will retroactively and unilaterally change an existing contract again?

Will you be so forthcoming* next time you choose to tighten restrictions, or will your customers have to plore through the 2,326-word EULA every time they upgrade or apply a patch to the program to catch any changes?

* irony intended, you're informing your customers about this on a forum not related to X-Rite, and only after your customers complained.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #130 on: April 13, 2011, 12:47:02 PM »
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I use my HCT target with Silverfast's profiling ability regularly, I've also used it with Monaco Gold, and EyeOne software. There is nothing inherently tying Silverfast's profiling with any given target. Quality of profile based on target, and quality of profile based on software, are two different issues.
Tyler

This is correct.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
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« Reply #131 on: April 13, 2011, 01:15:06 PM »
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Without wishing to veer too far off topic, the article states they're good IT8 targets, and I have no doubts whatsoever that Lasersoft's IT8 targets are just as good as anyone else's, and the method of using them is very clever and convenient to use. But they're still only IT8 targets, which from what I've read were designed only for visual comparisons, not for calibration or profiling. An HCT will always be better IMHO.

They said the same thing when Leopard first came out, and then Snow Leopard, and they're still using PowerPC binaries with a Universal "launcher".  Undecided

The desktop scanners will no doubt get updated as they're Lasersoft major source of revenue, but those of us who paid not insignificant money for the premium versions of Silverfast for high end scanners will probably get updated several years down the road, or not at all. Regrettably I've learned through bitter experience not to expect too much in responsiveness from Lasersoft, it's a pity, their software is really very very good.

The difference between you and me is that you've read this or that, whereas I've actually done the work to test it all rather extensively. I think I have a clear, practical fix on its strengths and limitations.

As for the updating of their software, you say "They said the same thing.........". I'm not basing what I said on what they said - I'm basing it on what has actually happened - and what happened is that the usability of their application is fully supported on the most recent Mac operating systems. I use them routinely. Whether it depends on Rosetta or anything else is irrelevant - for now - the point is that it works properly on the now current Mac and Windows operating systems 32-bit and 64-bit.

Needless to say, unless you sit in their marketing department you don't have a clue what tranche of software drives their business, and you can of course engage in idle speculation about how long it will be from the time Lion is launched until compatible updates for high-end scanners become available, but in truth and in fact, you have no idea about that either, nor should anyone expect you to. Just bear in mind that they've been in this business since the 1980s and they can read tea-leaves just as well as you think you can.
 
Anyhow yes, a bit off-topic, but this is just a suggestion to be factual. I only recommended looking at this approach as an alternative to a missing function in X-Rite's new offering that works, because I know it's a credible option. So I'll just leave it at that.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
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« Reply #132 on: April 13, 2011, 05:42:26 PM »
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* irony intended, you're informing your customers about this on a forum not related to X-Rite, and only after your customers complained.

I'm not XRite, just an independent color consultant who's been working closely with XRite testing this and previous projects for years. A small group of us discovered and have been very vocal about the EULA and are spearheading the changes on everyone's behalf. Should have a new version fairly soon...
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gromit
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« Reply #133 on: April 13, 2011, 09:53:13 PM »
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I haven't checked lately, but I assume Heidelberg still has profile creation software to go with their printers, I was always pretty happy with the CMYK profiles produced by Printopen version 4.

I had an old version of PrintOpen and inquired a few years ago about an upgrade path, and was quoted $13,000 though the distributor was happy to knock this down to $10,000. I ended up selling my PrintOpen on eBay for $1 ... the starting price and only one person interested.

Nowadays I use basICColor print 3.1. It's good enough that you can probably ignore i1Profiler. I was hoping for an updated MeasureTool in this release, but seemingly not. I haven't used print 3.1 for CMYK but it would be worth your while evaluating this.
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Greg_E
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« Reply #134 on: April 13, 2011, 10:02:30 PM »
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I'm not XRite, just an independent color consultant who's been working closely with XRite testing this and previous projects for years. A small group of us discovered and have been very vocal about the EULA and are spearheading the changes on everyone's behalf. Should have a new version fairly soon...

It makes a strong impression when a regular customer was all set to buy this, then backs out after reading the comments around the web. That would be me, had they gotten back to my emails slightly faster I would have been on the phone giving them my credit card. I've been talking to Michelle who has been with Xrite for a number years before the Gretag purchase, she is one of the old guard that made me buy into their system in the first place because she helped me out when I had a bunch of old used stuff. Made a big impression on me as a company back then. Now things are a bit different and the customer interaction is a little lesser where the employees may not be allowed to do the things they once did to make the customer feel like they were really important.

I did mention to her that it was sad that the most conversation about this product was the licensing issues, I'm really hoping they get back to me in the next day or two that the license is changed and that things like the GCR curve will be fixed back to what Profiler had. Those are my two big issues that are stopping me. When I started thinking about it, every single profile for my RIP had a modified GCR curve, so trying to live without it is not likely to happen.

For now it appears that Profiler runs fine in the XP emulation mode of Win7 pro and above, I also have my old Printopen 4.x that runs on Java so it should work just fine in either win7 (untested) or XP emulation. Only downside of the XP mode is that you are limited to a single processor and 500MB of memory, and of course making a monitor profile is out. I might move to a VirtualBox install so I can grab another processor and more RAM.
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Greg_E
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« Reply #135 on: April 13, 2011, 10:05:57 PM »
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I had an old version of PrintOpen and inquired a few years ago about an upgrade path, and was quoted $13,000 though the distributor was happy to knock this down to $10,000. I ended up selling my PrintOpen on eBay for $1 ... the starting price and only one person interested.

Nowadays I use basICColor print 3.1. It's good enough that you can probably ignore i1Profiler. I was hoping for an updated MeasureTool in this release, but seemingly not. I haven't used print 3.1 for CMYK but it would be worth your while evaluating this.

I wonder what the difference was. I know there was a full profiling system that was a lot, but the basic Printopen should have been about $2500 and had some nice new features.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #136 on: April 14, 2011, 11:06:30 AM »
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There is nothing inherently tying Silverfast's profiling with any given target.
Tyler

Tyler, I should mention one possible correction here: I'm not sure exactly what you meant by the above phrase. If you meant that you can load any existing non-SilverFast scanner profile made with another application into SilverFast's "Options>CMS>Profile>Input" and use it, this is correct. If you meant that you can actually make a profile using SilverFast's Auto IT8 procedure with an HCT target, that is not correct. The SilverFast Auto IT8 profile-making capability is only feasible using a bar-coded SilverFast IT8 target.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #137 on: April 14, 2011, 11:36:16 AM »
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that must have changed. My older Silverfast targets are not bar coded and I did make profiles from those supplied and others within the app. In fact the ones I got with the app long ago were Wolf Faust's I believe.
So perhaps with some newer Silverfast version I can no longer use the various targets I have, including the hutch. Haven't tried it in a while actually, I since I make them outside of Silverfast now.
Seems an odd and unnecessarily restriction to implement. Are IT8 targets now a life saving income stream???
Sorry if I mislead then, I don't update my version of Silverfast for my Howtek very often.
So, that restricts the scanner profiling options even further for me, to my old apps, and I share the concerns expressed by others.
Tyler
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #138 on: April 14, 2011, 01:34:19 PM »
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that must have changed. My older Silverfast targets are not bar coded and I did make profiles from those supplied and others within the app. In fact the ones I got with the app long ago were Wolf Faust's I believe.
So perhaps with some newer Silverfast version I can no longer use the various targets I have, including the hutch. Haven't tried it in a while actually, I since I make them outside of Silverfast now.
Seems an odd and unnecessarily restriction to implement. Are IT8 targets now a life saving income stream???
Sorry if I mislead then, I don't update my version of Silverfast for my Howtek very often.
So, that restricts the scanner profiling options even further for me, to my old apps, and I share the concerns expressed by others.
Tyler

What's probably changed is that they introduced a highly automated procedure for generating and implementing scanner profiles, and that required a specific target layout with its corresponding reference file. So nowadays you have a choice of using their target with their in-built profile calculator, or using another target, generating the profile with third-party software, and using it in SilverFast - or other colour-managed scanning software.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #139 on: April 15, 2011, 12:41:44 PM »
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The difference between you and me is that you've read this or that, whereas I've actually done the work to test it all rather extensively. I think I have a clear, practical fix on its strengths and limitations.

That was an unnecessarily aggressive tone of response Mark, and uncalled for.

You assume that I have not made my own tests. You assume incorrectly. I have at least four IT8 targets and an HCT. I make no claims of expertise, nor that my results trump yours or anyone else's, they were designed to satisfy me alone, but I refute that I haven't "actually done the work", cmon now, that is an unfair assumption...

You also misread my post. The only thing I claimed to have read was that IT8 targets were not originally designed for digital calibration/profiling but visual comparison, this information came from expert sources such as Bruce Fraser's Color Management book, or Andrew Rodney's book, or Don Hutcheson's website, I forget which one, does it matter? The expertise of all these people I hold in high regard. Neither did I state that IT8 targets were completely unusable for such purposes, I offered a polite opinion that I believe an HCT is better, as evidenced by "IMHO", which for those not familiar with the term means "In My Humble Opinion". I thought I was pretty clear about presenting an opinion and not a fact.

As for the updating of their software, you say "They said the same thing.........". I'm not basing what I said on what they said - I'm basing it on what has actually happened - and what happened is that the usability of their application is fully supported on the most recent Mac operating systems. I use them routinely. Whether it depends on Rosetta or anything else is irrelevant - for now - the point is that it works properly on the now current Mac and Windows operating systems 32-bit and 64-bit.

I know Silverfast still runs, I use it too. My opinion is that it's more a case of OS-X still supporting old Silverfast than Silverfast supporting new OS-X, based upon the fact (yes, fact) that they are still today producing PowerPC only binaries, not Intel binaries, nor even Universal ones, for core modules. Will they produce a fully Lion compatible Intel binary? Of course they will. In time. But recent communication with Lasersoft over the last couple of days suggest to me (more speculation!) that they are rather hoping that Rosetta will still be included in Lion (their speculation!). Personally I hope they're right and it is, it will solve a lot of potential upgrade hurdles with older software like ProfileMaker.

Needless to say, unless you sit in their marketing department you don't have a clue what tranche of software drives their business, and you can of course engage in idle speculation about how long it will be from the time Lion is launched until compatible updates for high-end scanners become available, but in truth and in fact, you have no idea about that either, nor should anyone expect you to. Just bear in mind that they've been in this business since the 1980s and they can read tea-leaves just as well as you think you can.

Sorry, but this is just point scoring pedantry. Of course I'm speculating! Any suggestion of what might happen in the future is speculation. I don't need you to tell me that. Should I go through your posts and highlight where you've done the same? Let's not eh?  Smiley

Based up on my own experience with Lasersoft, and the open dialog I've had with them over the last 5 years on the particular subject of Universal Binaries, my expectation (speculation again!) that I will have a Universal or Intel binary available to me for my Howtek anywhere near the release of Lion is very low. That is all I have stated.

Anyhow yes, a bit off-topic, but this is just a suggestion to be factual.

Then please accept my humble suggestion to not take everything posted on a internet forum as being purported to be factual, and that you need to denounce it.  Smiley

I only recommended looking at this approach as an alternative to a missing function in X-Rite's new offering that works, because I know it's a credible option. So I'll just leave it at that.

For use with an IT8 it's a very definite option, let us hope it doesn't turn out to be the only one if X-Rite don't rethink their policy on scanner profiling. For thus of us who prefer an HCT and wish to continue so, it seems that is not a workable option for use with that target, at least for the moment. Perhaps an opportunity for Lasersoft?
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