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Author Topic: Best MF System and lenses for Bokeh  (Read 7352 times)
Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2011, 08:24:56 AM »
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New lenses for Afi, does that mean they are still making/supporting the bodies? Does anyone use the Rollei 6008AF?


Yes and yes, I use the 6008AF. Here's a sample of the bokeh possible with that system:

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JV
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« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2011, 08:46:29 AM »
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Yes and yes, I use the 6008AF. Here's a sample of the bokeh possible with that system:

Graham,

Which lens?

Thanks, Joris.
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2011, 09:31:03 AM »
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Graham,

Which lens?

110mm f2
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DeeJay
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« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2011, 09:34:10 AM »
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Graham, Nice image.

Is there anything about the 6008AF that bothers you? It seems like a very well designed system and I've heard people rave about it. It's features and ergonomics seem pretty amazing. Is there anything about the system that is a problem for you?

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« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2011, 09:37:31 AM »
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I really love, what RZ67 with 110\2.8 can do:
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2011, 09:46:43 AM »
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Graham, Nice image.

Is there anything about the 6008AF that bothers you? It seems like a very well designed system and I've heard people rave about it. It's features and ergonomics seem pretty amazing. Is there anything about the system that is a problem for you?

As a digital solution, yes. The flash sync cable from camera body to digital back is a pain. And the lack of EXIF, etc. The original battery system is not good either but can easily be upgraded (see http://www.graham-mitchell.com/blog/?p=72 ). Then there's the issue of having nowhere to rent lenses or accessories for the system, so you need to own everything. It's not very weather-proof either. In a perfect world there would be just one rectilinear lens wider than the excellent 40mm. (Maybe the long talked-about 35mm will make it to production some day.)

Apart from that, I love the fast and sharp lenses with really solid smooth manual focus operation, extension rings, viewfinder options, rotating back between portrait and landscape rather than rotating camera, up to 1/1000th flash sync, remote control with mirror release
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donaldt
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« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2011, 11:47:46 AM »
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why does the 1/125 flash sync bother you so much
if you can afford the top back, you should be able to afford the top flash/strobe (Broncolor, etc)

with strong enough flash, 1/125 and 1/500 flash sync is a very minor difference (not that I found 1/800 any useful on my Hass H3)

if you get the mamiya and ignore their lens entirely, then you might as well skip that system and think of something else

if flash sync means so much to you, get the Hass H, it isnt really THAT bad, I am a big bokeh guy but I still use it
I also believe the AFi is good overall, but still, if you are spending that much money, I rather get a system with reliable support and future
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« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2011, 12:09:10 PM »
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why does the 1/125 flash sync bother you so much
if you can afford the top back, you should be able to afford the top flash/strobe (Broncolor, etc)

The flash equipment is not the issue - if you want to use any flash whatsoever in a photo and you are restricted to 1/125 then clearly some shots are not going to be possible. I was shooting at 1/500 a lot yesterday in the sun, just to get the correct exposure at in bright sun at f2-f2.8. If I wanted to add any flash to that image, it would not have been possible with a camera with 1/125 flash sync.
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« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2011, 12:24:55 PM »
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some people liked the Rollei's 3 Blades aperture, again its a matter of preference


Just to add a bit to your post and correct one thing.  Definitely bokeh is subjective and each will have their own preference. IMHO the leica and zeiss rendering of hard edges as doublets really makes the image a photo visually. Meaning the viewer knows its a photo and not an illusion just like a tattoo on a female model forces the viewer to read the time as current.   That's why I prefer the schneider (and the zeiss 110/2 that Graham posted a shot from which does a lot less of it than other zeiss).  And as far as I know, the only rollei lenses with 3 blade apertures were for 35mm format. 
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« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2011, 12:29:56 PM »
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I kinda get your point
but you can step down, lower the ISO to 50
or use a ND filter to retain the aperture (thats when the very strong flash comes in)

I mean there are ways to get around it, given the Contax is almost perfect in all the other ways

and leaf shutter lens rarely gets to f2 (only Rollei does)
f2.8 is also rare, most starts at f3.2-f4 anyway


The flash equipment is not the issue - if you want to use any flash whatsoever in a photo and you are restricted to 1/125 then clearly some shots are not going to be possible. I was shooting at 1/500 a lot yesterday in the sun, just to get the correct exposure at in bright sun at f2-f2.8. If I wanted to add any flash to that image, it would not have been possible with a camera with 1/125 flash sync.
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« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2011, 12:32:16 PM »
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yes I didnt make it clear
the only 3 blades lens were the Rollei 35mm and C mount movie lens by Zeiss Jena

Just to add a bit to your post and correct one thing.  Definitely bokeh is subjective and each will have their own preference. IMHO the leica and zeiss rendering of hard edges as doublets really makes the image a photo visually. Meaning the viewer knows its a photo and not an illusion just like a tattoo on a female model forces the viewer to read the time as current.   That's why I prefer the schneider (and the zeiss 110/2 that Graham posted a shot from which does a lot less of it than other zeiss).  And as far as I know, the only rollei lenses with 3 blade apertures were for 35mm format. 
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2011, 12:40:01 PM »
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I kinda get your point
but you can step down, lower the ISO to 50
or use a ND filter to retain the aperture (thats when the very strong flash comes in)

You can use an ND to lower shutter speed, but if a model is jumping around, that's probably a bad idea too. Nothing beats having flash sync at all speeds.
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« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2011, 12:41:36 PM »
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why does the 1/125 flash sync bother you so much
if you can afford the top back, you should be able to afford the top flash/strobe (Broncolor, etc)

with strong enough flash, 1/125 and 1/500 flash sync is a very minor difference (not that I found 1/800 any useful on my Hass H3)

if you get the mamiya and ignore their lens entirely, then you might as well skip that system and think of something else

if flash sync means so much to you, get the Hass H, it isnt really THAT bad, I am a big bokeh guy but I still use it
I also believe the AFi is good overall, but still, if you are spending that much money, I rather get a system with reliable support and future

Flash sync is really important for some kinds of shooting such where the model or subject is moving.   A lot of strobes have pretty slow durations at high power and many people are using HMI or hot lights now so you can't always use the flash to stop the action.  Sync speed will only get more important as more jobs incorporate video too.   The Rollei 6008AF and Hy6/AFi will do 1/500 or 1/1000 depending on the lens.
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bradleygibson
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« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2011, 11:12:46 PM »
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New lenses for Afi? does that mean they are still making/supporting the bodies? Does anyone use the Rollei 6008AF?

Yes and yes, I use the 6008AF. Here's a sample of the bokeh possible with that system:


Slight clarification--it is not clear whether new bodies are being made or simply sold from existing stock.  A small point until/unless stock runs out--because it is not clear whether DHW retains the rights to continue manufacturing the body or not.  My feeling is that none of this really matters, but I wanted you to be aware so you would be able to decide for yourself.

With that being said, new lenses are being developed and made for the system and the bodies and lenses are indeed still supported.

Thanks for all your input. I'm considering an IQ180 so wanting to review systems. Find the Phamiya particularly uninspiring and I'm not a major fan of their lenses. ove the Contax but the 125th second flash sync is a killer. Don't like the H Series. Have been using a V System very happily with a P65 but as others have said it has an aperture that isn't round so thought I'd investigate other options. I have heard wonders about Rollei.

Interesting, as I arrived at exactly the same conclusions regarding the Phamiya system, the H, the V and the Contax.  I liked the V system so much I ended up on it twice (second time with a 203FE for faster glass and CFV-39 to eliminate the sync cable).  But I do tend to use longer lenses and natural (continuous) light, and shutter vibration from focal-plane shutter cameras turned out to be problematic.  This is the main reason why I ended up leaving the Contax and the 203FE.  In your case, it sounds like you may be using strobe, so this wouldn't be  an issue.

Between the two (V and Contax), I'd recommend the Contax (no sync cable, smoother bokeh, AF, wider wide angle), plus an adapter for the V lenses you can't live without (eg. 110/2), assuming you can live with the slow flash sync, and aren't a waist-level finder shooter shooting in portrait orientation.

Overall, though, it does seem that a Rollei system would be best suited to cover your needs, both for bokeh and sync speed.

Additional info: IQ180 is not available in any Rollei mount -- If you wanted 80MP in Rollei, you would have to pick up an Aptus-II 12 (and an AFi/Hy6--the Aptus is not available in 6008 mount).
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 11:58:25 PM by bradleygibson » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2011, 12:47:38 AM »
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As a digital solution, yes. The flash sync cable from camera body to digital back is a pain. And the lack of EXIF, etc. The original battery system is not good either but can easily be upgraded (see http://www.graham-mitchell.com/blog/?p=72 ). Then there's the issue of having nowhere to rent lenses or accessories for the system, so you need to own everything. It's not very weather-proof either. In a perfect world there would be just one rectilinear lens wider than the excellent 40mm. (Maybe the long talked-about 35mm will make it to production some day.)

Apart from that, I love the fast and sharp lenses with really solid smooth manual focus operation, extension rings, viewfinder options, rotating back between portrait and landscape rather than rotating camera, up to 1/1000th flash sync, remote control with mirror release

Thanks Graham,

Mostly the issues I have with the V System too but the main thing I worry about is availability while in other countries if something breaks.


why does the 1/125 flash sync bother you so much
if you can afford the top back, you should be able to afford the top flash/strobe (Broncolor, etc)

with strong enough flash, 1/125 and 1/500 flash sync is a very minor difference (not that I found 1/800 any useful on my Hass H3)

if you get the mamiya and ignore their lens entirely, then you might as well skip that system and think of something else

if flash sync means so much to you, get the Hass H, it isnt really THAT bad, I am a big bokeh guy but I still use it
I also believe the AFi is good overall, but still, if you are spending that much money, I rather get a system with reliable support and future

Flash sync has nothing to do with expensive flash gear, which I use, when you need to shoot wide open. Shooting with ND filters on a back that requires critical focus and on fast paced action and shooting is not something that ever works. Shame, I like the Contax, it's probably the best design since the Blads  but the flash sync makes it a non contender and I think it's probably one of the contributing factors to the demise of the camera and company. A camera aimed at professionals which is limited like that is pointless and I know it was a deal breaker for many people who would have migrated to the system.

I don't like the Hasselblad H. Would never swap the V System for it.

Yes and yes, I use the 6008AF. Here's a sample of the bokeh possible with that system:



Slight clarification--it is not clear whether new bodies are being made or simply sold from existing stock.  A small point until/unless stock runs out--because it is not clear whether DHW retains the rights to continue manufacturing the body or not.  My feeling is that none of this really matters, but I wanted you to be aware so you would be able to decide for yourself.

With that being said, new lenses are being developed and made for the system and the bodies and lenses are indeed still supported.

Interesting, as I arrived at exactly the same conclusions regarding the Phamiya system, the H, the V and the Contax.  I liked the V system so much I ended up on it twice (second time with a 203FE for faster glass and CFV-39 to eliminate the sync cable).  But I do tend to use longer lenses and natural (continuous) light, and shutter vibration from focal-plane shutter cameras turned out to be problematic.  This is the main reason why I ended up leaving the Contax and the 203FE.  In your case, it sounds like you may be using strobe, so this wouldn't be  an issue.

Between the two (V and Contax), I'd recommend the Contax (no sync cable, smoother bokeh, AF, wider wide angle), plus an adapter for the V lenses you can't live without (eg. 110/2), assuming you can live with the slow flash sync, and aren't a waist-level finder shooter shooting in portrait orientation.

Overall, though, it does seem that a Rollei system would be best suited to cover your needs, both for bokeh and sync speed.

Additional info: IQ180 is not available in any Rollei mount -- If you wanted 80MP in Rollei, you would have to pick up an Aptus-II 12 (and an AFi/Hy6--the Aptus is not available in 6008 mount).

Thanks - I thought I had read that it was available in the Rollei mount. Well that solves that one. I think I'm going to stick with my V System as the Contax is a no go for me sadly.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2011, 12:52:15 AM by DeeJay » Logged
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« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2011, 01:16:36 AM »
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if you are not worrying about cost
absolute best bokeh is if you get a MF camera with focal shutter plane
then use Movie lenses
I used to do that with Mamiya, can no linger do with my Hass and I miss that bokeh

the next best thing should be the Contax, Rollei, and Hass V system

Mamiya is harsh even though there is some fast lens (fast doesnt always mean good bokeh)

what movie lens can cover 645??
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« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2011, 01:23:06 AM »
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The motion lens idea sounds interesting. Do you need a Focal Plane Shutter?

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« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2011, 04:11:58 AM »
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What is interesting (to me, anyhow) about this thread is that the discussion has largely centred around MF camera systems that are now defunct (Hasselblad V-System, Contax 645, Rollei 6000), or of uncertain status (the HY6). Hardly anyone has said that, gosh, the ‘Blad HC lenses are fabulous or that the Phase/Mamiya glass is brilliant. Well, perhaps some of them are brilliant, but nobody has said so. I know that it is no use bewailing the past and what might have happened, but it seems to be the very height of irony that we have the most sophisticated digital capture devices ever made (albeit very expensive) with the new 60 and 80 MP backs, but we now have only two remaining current MF camera systems to mount them on. One of which (the Phase) does not qualify as a system at all in terms of finders etc, and the other, the H-System, is closed. So that is hardly a system, either, because you can only use one “film”.

John
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« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2011, 05:12:26 AM »
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What is interesting (to me, anyhow) about this thread is that the discussion has largely centred around MF camera systems that are now defunct (Hasselblad V-System, Contax 645, Rollei 6000), or of uncertain status (the HY6). Hardly anyone has said that, gosh, the ‘Blad HC lenses are fabulous or that the Phase/Mamiya glass is brilliant. Well, perhaps some of them are brilliant, but nobody has said so. I know that it is no use bewailing the past and what might have happened, but it seems to be the very height of irony that we have the most sophisticated digital capture devices ever made (albeit very expensive) with the new 60 and 80 MP backs, but we now have only two remaining current MF camera systems to mount them on. One of which (the Phase) does not qualify as a system at all in terms of finders etc, and the other, the H-System, is closed. So that is hardly a system, either, because you can only use one “film”.

John


Yes, I agree John. It's stranger than fiction.

I put off MFD for so long because I always got the impression that the Phamiya was a temporary system while they got a design (like the Leaf AFi) sorted themselves. I still shoot with, and think the best option is the the Bad V system and it shows how good the design really was/is. I just wish Hasselblad chose to take a similar route with the H Series rather than that uninspiring plastique heap of junque (sorry no mean to offend anyone that likes or uses it) that is the H Series. That Phamiya, even worse IMO. I think apart from the Rollei 6000 and the Contax, modern camera MF design got lost somehow. Trying to squeeze in too many bells and whistles. If Contax had made a more basic leaf shutter system, I believe it would have been the most successful and as long lasting design as the Blad V. It's a shame. Have to say even the Rollei Hy6, which is a well featured camera I still find quite sterile, clinical, uninteresting, uninspiring. And that rubberised grip makes it look a bit too Fisher Price for my liking. And while I would sill use it, it's future is too uncertain to entertain the investment at this stage. I don't care what anyone says that how a camera looks and feels doesn't make a difference. i really think it does and those Blad V's just make you feel inspired somehow. IMO of corse.

I do wonder though - it seems now there is alot more understanding about the benefits of big sensors. Where as not that long ago I think people thought that dSLR was as good as MFD or in future will be. But the physics of the bigger chip mean that a dSLR won't be able to compete. Prices are coming down too, take a look at the H4D31 for example. So there seems to be a shift to MFD in terms of popular opinion at the moment so i wonder that that extra interest and demand will show us some new advancements in MFD and an ideal system might materialize soon. Fingers crossed.

In the meantime I'm happy with my V Series 555. I wish someone could take that platform and just tweak it ever so slightly and bring it into the modern age.
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« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2011, 05:27:51 AM »
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In the meantime I'm happy with my V Series 555. I wish someone could take that platform and just tweak it ever so slightly and bring it into the modern age.

Well, that platform was there with the 203FE. It was a strategic decision by the Hass management of the time not to develop that camera (which was backwards compatible with all the existing lenses, finders and magazines) but to join forces with Fuji and produce the H-system. It's another big what-if of camera history.

John
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