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Author Topic: A Continuation of Seamus's Front of House People  (Read 6339 times)
Rob C
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« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2011, 02:28:25 PM »
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Regarding those who moved to America and whether from choice or out of desperation: I think a helluva lot of Jews moved Stateside from Europe prior to '39... Considering so many left behind them businesses, property and a lot of artworks, I can't really see there was a huge amount of choice going down. Escape yes, but choice indicates another sort of concept for me. Take a trip a couple of hundred years back in time and the new settlers were far from all going over with songs of joy on their lips. Forced departures and banishment from Europe and Africa were no rare thing. Australia enjoyed a partly similar happy influx of new settlers.

Maybe it's possible to choose a splendid moment when choice was indeed free, either by dint of fortune or timing, but I'd hardly imagine that applied to the majority.

And then, when free choice did become a reality, the curtains were already drawn. Anecdotal again, but a successful member of my own family flirted with the idea of going over to live and run his business after having spent several holidays with another relative working on contract for IBM, I think, in Boston; the requirements for anybody going over to settle and run a business were amazing: employment had to be guaranteed for a string of American people... Now, don't get me wrong: I applaud the attitude. We should embrace similar common sense in the UK.

Now, I sometimes think it would be a fun thing to go over to America and look around the place in freer mode than I ever did on shoots; but, having an existing heart problem, insurance prevents. Yep, freedom is a strange concept; another anecdotal example, but I guarantee its truth and negative value.

Rob C
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2011, 04:00:28 PM »
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Rob, there are 190+ countries in this world to choose from to immigrate to, yet the overwhelming majority keep choosing the U.S. Maybe being the only country in the world that has a "pursuit of happiness" in its constitution has something to do with it?

Desperation... escape... forced departures... banishment. But of course! Almost nobody leaves the country they were born, homes they grew up in, language they speak, their extended families and friends, their memories, graveyards, etc. on a pure selfish whim, or for fun. That's the push factor. But there is always a pull factor, something that attracts you to chose namely the U.S. among those 190+ countries. Nobody (but slaves) was forced to come here, as much as they might have been forced to leave their countries of origin.

You mentioned Jews prior to '39. You will also remember the premise of this debate (i.e., hyphenated Americans). Do you really believe that they will be the ones to declare themselves "German-Americans"!?

As for the "curtains already being drawn"... as much as every country has the right to control immigration, this is still the most immigrant-friendly country, at least that I know of. And not only in their laws and regulations, but in the attitude of the "natives" as well. Immigrants will always have a hard time adjusting quickly and being accepted quickly, most of which is simply human nature, but I never felt this welcome (within reason) in any other country, and believe me, I've been in more than a few.
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feppe
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« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2011, 04:51:37 PM »
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Rob, there are 190+ countries in this world to choose from to immigrate to, yet the overwhelming majority keep choosing the U.S. Maybe being the only country in the world that has a "pursuit of happiness" in its constitution has something to do with it?

While that was historically the case, not so much anymore, it appears. I'm not too familiar with the figures so following is just quick googling. Comparing US (population 300m, area 10m km2) to EU (population 500m, area 4m km2) would be more appropriate than comparing US to individual countries. A glance at Wikipedia says EU net immigration is 1.8m per year, while US is 1m. Also, Italy and Spain have roughly 10% of their population with immigrant status, while US has much lower than that - no idea how that status is defined and whether those figures are comparable, though.

Contrary to your claim, US is extremely difficult to emigrate to legally as a skilled or educated worker. In fairness, emigrating within the developed world is tough no matter which country you choose, except within EU and to Singapore (last time I checked). But you are absolutely right on what's the most welcoming country: US is by far the most welcoming to immigrants, I'm sure even today.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2011, 04:57:04 PM by feppe » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2011, 06:00:56 PM »
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While that was historically the case, not so much anymore, it appears. I'm not too familiar with the figures so following is just quick googling. Comparing US (population 300m, area 10m km2) to EU (population 500m, area 4m km2) would be more appropriate than comparing US to individual countries. A glance at Wikipedia says EU net immigration is 1.8m per year, while US is 1m. Also, Italy and Spain have roughly 10% of their population with immigrant status, while US has much lower than that - no idea how that status is defined and whether those figures are comparable, though.

If you want to use the EU as a whole (a fair point, btw), then it appears that the number of 1.8 million includes internal migration, based on the following sentence in the quoted link: "...Citizens from the European Union make up a growing proportion of immigrants in Spain..." (Hi, Rob!)

Quote
Contrary to your claim, US is extremely difficult to emigrate to legally as a skilled or educated worker. In fairness, emigrating within the developed world is tough no matter which country you choose, except within EU and to Singapore (last time I checked). But you are absolutely right on what's the most welcoming country: US is by far the most welcoming to immigrants, I'm sure even today.

I do not know how you define "extremely difficult", but I did just that and did not find it difficult. Yes, there is a process (inevitably bureaucratic), and yes, you have to wait for months, but at least there is a process for skilled workers, an example of which is H1b visa, where the only condition is a college education and a company invitation. At the time I did that, no EU country had anything similar. In all fairness, I could have stayed in Spain illegally, waiting tables (and waiting for an amnesty), but there goes your premise of "educated worker".
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« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2011, 07:19:07 PM »
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If you want to use the EU as a whole (a fair point, btw), then it appears that the number of 1.8 million includes internal migration, based on the following sentence in the quoted link: "...Citizens from the European Union make up a growing proportion of immigrants in Spain..." (Hi, Rob!)

This study claims more than 1.8m non-EU citizens emigrating to the EU-27 in 2006 - although that number includes movement of those citizens within the Union.

I do not know how you define "extremely difficult", but I did just that and did not find it difficult. Yes, there is a process (inevitably bureaucratic), and yes, you have to wait for months, but at least there is a process for skilled workers, an example of which is H1b visa, where the only condition is a college education and a company invitation. At the time I did that, no EU country had anything similar. In all fairness, I could have stayed in Spain illegally, waiting tables (and waiting for an amnesty), but there goes your premise of "educated worker".

You can't seriously consider H-1B visas to be considered immigration? My definition of immigration is permanent residence, not temporary servitude revokable at the whims of an employer - you'll have to get back to where you came from within weeks.

Pretty much the only ways to emigrate to US is to marry a US citizen, have a highly desirable profession, or invest a cool million in the US economy (euphemism for "buy yourself in") - and latter two are green card, ie. revokable. Even through marriage there's some kind of waiting period of years before you are eligible for citizenship. Oh, and then there's the green card lottery, which is so absurd if it was in a movie it'd better be a comedy.

I'm sure it's just as hard as getting into the EU, but again, US is by no standard an easy (western) place to emigrate to legally.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2011, 07:34:26 PM by feppe » Logged

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« Reply #45 on: April 15, 2011, 08:24:38 PM »
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Harri, I went via H1b to green card, and it is not only possible, but a quite common path. Coincidentally, I also won the green card lottery the same year (though I did not use it), so, again, it is not so absurd. Green card is not generally revokable, unless you commit a crime. And I do not know many countries (if any) that would grant you immediate and irrevocable citizenship. Agreed, not easy, but doable.

I honestly do not know how it was possible for the 1.8 million non-EU citizens to obtain a legal status, as when I was looking into that in 2000 - 2003, I found no legal way. The only other way was to come in on a temporary (tourist) visa, overstay illegally, and then wait for an amnesty. In the short period I was in Spain, there were two or three amnesties (!?), and all our acquaintances with illegal status got their papers, while we, being in the country legally, could not benefit from those amnesties.
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seamus finn
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« Reply #46 on: April 16, 2011, 07:55:36 AM »
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Quote
You ask 1000 people and they speak for 245,000? That's all towards which I meant to poke a wry question mark
.


Point taken. It's the way of the world now, Rob.

Incidentally, knowing your sense of the incongruous (and others here as well) here's something: there was a fire sale of 'distressed' properties in Dublin yesterday. Over eighty went to auction at knockdown prices. Buyers spilled out onto the street in front of the posh Shelbourne Hotel and had to shout their bids over the heads of the crowds to the auctioneers inside. A total of €15 million was spent in the five-hour auction, which had to be suspended in the first hour because of crowds trying to get in.

The Irish Times reports: 'London auctioneers Allsop put on an impressive show with flashy pink catalogues and nattily dressed young men and women lined up on the podium behind auctioneer Gary Murphy. Irish in name but frightfully English in delivery, he invited bidders to go “another thousand pounds, sorry euro.......By the time the auction got under way at 12.15, the room was packed and there were another hundred or so queuing outside. By lot 9, the auction had to be interrupted when gardaí (police) objected to crowds blocking the footpath. A two-bed apartment in Portlaoise was sold to a bidder on the street for €61,000.......a city centre penthouse, on the market three years ago at €1.3 million, sold for €345,000. It was bought by an Englishman for his daughter who is studying at the College of Surgeons.'

While all this was going on, guess who walked by in the street and took it all in? Irony of ironies, none other than Mr. Ajai Chopra, the IMF’s Deputy European Director and Head of Mission for Ireland, part of the troika of the International Monetary Fund, European Central Bank and European Union who were in town doing the sums for the government.

You couldn't make it up!
« Last Edit: April 16, 2011, 08:07:42 AM by seamus finn » Logged

feppe
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« Reply #47 on: April 16, 2011, 09:30:09 AM »
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Incidentally, knowing your sense of the incongruous (and others here as well) here's something: there was a fire sale of 'distressed' properties in Dublin yesterday...

Not sure what the point of that was - sounds normal for auctions after a property bubble, and I don't see any irony in the IMF Director happening to walk by, or even visit the auction. It's not like the IMF crashed property values.
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seamus finn
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« Reply #48 on: April 16, 2011, 10:30:12 AM »
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Oh, well, I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder.  But it made a great street shot. I wish I'd been there to get it.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2011, 12:42:47 PM by seamus finn » Logged

Rob C
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« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2011, 11:17:52 AM »
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Slobodan

"...Citizens from the European Union make up a growing proportion of immigrants in Spain..." (Hi, Rob!)


Yes, but there's a difference: I'm a totally benign immigrant; my contribution is a net plus to the community since my money come in from outside but gets spent here...

I did tell you about the problems facing my family member, a fully qualified FRICS running his own successful company in Britain, whose experience in investigating working in the States showed a far from embracing welcome was on its way; if the wealthy pros have problems...

However, just in case anyone thinks I'm anti-US I include here a shot of my newly tarted-up buggy that'll be thirteen in July. I finally couldn't bear to part with it after I bought the new Fiesta. I think the relevance of the image is self-explanatory.

;-)

Rob C



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Eric Myrvaagnes
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« Reply #50 on: April 16, 2011, 12:49:22 PM »
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Rob,

My reading of your photo is that you really wish you were running an "escort service" in Hollywood. Right?  Wink

Eric
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2011, 02:26:59 PM »
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Rob,

My reading of your photo is that you really wish you were running an "escort service" in Hollywood. Right?  Wink

Eric

Running or using? Wink
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Slobodan

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Rob C
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« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2011, 02:41:38 PM »
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Oh cruelty, thy name is Legion!
 
But at least I'd be banging on sixteen valves, which is better than the rather miserable ones in my vascular system...

;-)

Rob C


PS  I'd imagined you might have picked up on the 'any more' which, in the context of now, might have been better as 'anymore' but as that wasn't - oh, never mind, it doesn't matter at all.

However, I've just returned from shooting some images for a painter friend whose new show has opened tonight in Pollensa. It isn't business for me, just something he can pop into his website when he finally gets it together. But the funny thing is this: as I was having fun playing pap around the place, this lady thrust her child at me and stated that I was to shoot him. I refrained from the obvious comment, mainly because I hadn't yet thought of it, but when she continued to inform me that she'd bought more of my friend's pictures than anyone else there I felt really pěssed off. The cheek! I was about to tell her that I wasn't the young man from ˇHola! magazine, but that would have been two blindingly obvious facts within the same sentence, so I didn't say that either. What I did say, however, was that I wasn't an official snapper and that were her son female and eighteen years old, it would have been very different. She gazed at me. The mother, not the fantasy daughter.

One meets such strange people in this little town. We all think that.

« Last Edit: April 16, 2011, 02:55:39 PM by Rob C » Logged

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