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Author Topic: Editing with External Editor in AP3 giving me Muted Colors  (Read 7696 times)
tangfish
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« on: April 11, 2011, 09:20:10 PM »
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Hi All, I'm a n00b around here so forgive any ignorance. 

I'm having a frustrating problem with AP3. I just noticed that files that I've edited using an external editor (PS5) come back to Aperture with significantly dulled/muted colors. At first I thought it was something that PS was doing. Then, I realized that this was happening to the new versions created by Aperture even before the external editor was completely launched. So, I think it's an issue internal to AP3.

Right when you select "edit with Adobe Photoshop CS5.app" Aperture creates a new version - right then I can see the colors being dulled/muted. I don't for the life of me know how to avoid this from happening.

My export settings are:

16 bit TIFF
DPI: 300
External editor color space: Adobe RGB (1998)

I've attached an image for comparison.  The image on the right is the version that was created as soon as I clicked "edit with Adobe Photoshop CS5.app".  I didn't even touch Photoshop yet, all that happened was this version was created.  As you can see, the colors are a bit muted and dull, I think there's more green in there. 

Am I just seeing lower quality previews or are my final images actually coming out with loss of color whenever I try to edit w/ PS?

Any help in this would be greatly appreciated.
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RobSaecker
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« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2011, 09:29:02 AM »
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What format are the origins in?
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Rob
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« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2011, 11:46:37 AM »
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To followup, I've found an image with somewhat similar tonality, and I can't reproduce the problem. Maybe with more information about what the original files are and what post processing you're doing, there might be a clue, but not with the info at hand.
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Rob
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tangfish
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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2011, 11:53:34 AM »
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Original files are .NEF, raw and right out of the camera.  The same thing happens to all my underwater shots, which have a lot of blue/cyan in them.  Here's an example, feel free to download:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8240712/DSC_0014.NEF

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RobSaecker
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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2011, 01:20:02 PM »
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OK, I can see it in yours, for sure. I exported a TIFF with your settings, and then imported it back into Aperture so I could see them side buy side. The first thing I noticed is that the white balance is different, 6309 k with a tint of 10 in the NEF, 5000 k with a tint of 0 in the TIFF. I got them a bit closer by dropping the TIFF to 4620 k, and tint 25, and then + .4 exposure, but they're still not identical by any means.

As to why the exported image is so different, I'm afraid I haven't a clue. You might contact Rob Boyer, he's the most knowledgeable person WRT Aperture color issues that I know of. Sorry I can't be of more help
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Rob
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tangfish
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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2011, 01:22:15 PM »
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Phew, at least someone else was able to replicate it.  It's really throwing me for a loop.  I don't think this was happening before the last AP3 update.
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msbc
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« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2011, 02:43:06 AM »
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I see the same issue - with CR2 and NEF. In fact I opened a bug report with Apple on this back in June last year - they had me upload sample images but the case has not progressed since then.

I was using Photomatix HDR Tone Mapping Plug-In and I found that the resulting TIFF displayed differently when imported back into Aperture than when viewed in all my other applications - Lightroom 2.7
Lightroom 3.0, Photoshop CS4 and Photo Mechanic 4.6.4.

Here's a link to the example I sent to Apple http://www.mark-connell.com/Photography/Testing/screen-capture/880283357_DkDaM-X3.jpg

Mark
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tangfish
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« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2011, 01:36:49 PM »
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Yep, the tiff is shifted yellow from magenta, to my eye.  Definitely an issue, and one that I guess they've known about for some time now.  That it wasn't addressed in the latest AP update gives me the impression that it's not going to be solved for awhile.  Well, not in time for when I need to ship this photo project anyway.  Back to bumbling around in LR3 for me, for now.
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Clearair
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« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2011, 08:35:52 AM »
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Ok this has got me going to the extent that I have done some real world comparisons of my own.

I use aperture 3 not only as a raw processor but to library my final print files from PS3 or whatever. I use it for all my image file organization. This is its major advantage over LR for me.

So this issue is a dog for me as I do not generally keep processed files stored elsewhere that have not been through this route, as I use a plugin in PS3 for my printing and do not print direct from Aperture.

I exported 2 files from Aperture, original size, 16 bit, 300dpi, black point plus data etc. One as a Tiff and one as a PSD then back into Aperture for archiving.

The original 5D11 raw files show as 5023K with a 6 tint with camera default set and both import back as 5000K 0 tint.

When compared in Aperture, this small change seems to make no colour difference to my eye, but is a little more vivid or bright, AND the raw version shifts slightly in the main view of the levels inspector.

When re exporting the Tiff and PSD and comparing to the first exports in PS3, I can see no difference! And playing with the info picker shows both versions to be the same.

My conclusion is that as the final print version from PS3 is archived in my Aperture library as I saw it for printing and when re used will be the same, all appears OK.

The fact that there appears to be a change in colour temperature when exporting is more annoying than anything, especially as this can't be confirmed in PS. I stand to be corrected on this.

I make further adjustments in PS for printing anyway.

I switched the camera default off and exported a 4848K 1 tint file and imported it back and it re imports as 5000K o tint.

The answer lies in there somewhere but far more talented than me need to explain.


So is it Aperture?
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tangfish
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« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2011, 02:13:46 PM »
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This just gets stranger by the post.  I don't know what's going on, but regardless of how potentially damaging the changes are (much worse for my underwater photos that are dominated by cyans and blues) - I don't like my color temps being messed with!
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Clearair
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« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2011, 07:54:30 AM »
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I agree, but I don't think it's an Aperture thing, but a Raw file process thing.

I don't have any proof just my gut feeling and the fact that a tiff imported into Aperture spends a while being processed,
again on import..........see for yourself.

Has anyone tried this with LR? Or other raw converters??

I will try to give it a go but I am not an expert in these things.
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James R
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« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2011, 10:53:01 AM »
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I don't use Aperture.  I opened your file (DSC_0014.nef) in Capture One Pro v6.xxx.  It looks fine.  The WB is 6381 with a tint of 1.3.   Opened in LR3 and it is also fine.  WB 6000 and tint +3.  

Colors are not muted and flesh tones on both the male and female look natural.  
« Last Edit: April 16, 2011, 10:57:28 AM by James R » Logged
Clearair
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« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2011, 02:40:06 PM »
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James
 But did you export as a tiff to PS or other non raw image application and import back into a raw image application?
Regards

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msbc
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« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2011, 12:42:15 AM »
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I agree, but I don't think it's an Aperture thing, but a Raw file process thing.


My experience does not agree with this. I start with exporting a RAW from Aperture to create a TIFF. I then work on this TIFF in one of my NIK apps (e.g. Viveza) or Photomatix. The resulting TIFF is then imported back to Aperture. The image in Aperture shows different/muted colors compared to viewing the TIFF in any other color managed application (Photoshop, Lightroom, Photo Mechanic, Preview). I don't have onscreen proofing enabled in Aperture. In the 4 apps I mentioned the image looks identical - I can overlay windows on my 30" screen and see this. If I overlay one of these windows with the image in Aperture the differences are immediately obvious.
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Clearair
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« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2011, 06:17:28 AM »
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I see what you are saying but for my purposes it does not mean the tiffs I store in Aperture will not match the original tiffs I worked on in PS.
So my workflow is intact.
I have said there was a difference but too slight in my case to be noticable. I don't print from Aperture so will not be making print decisions from it.
I still don't think it's as simple as blaming one app.

I still think other raw apps may have colour temperature changes.

When I have the time.

Even my thumbnails in Mac OS look different when a copy has been worked on. $%^&*

Regards
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Clearair
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« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2011, 04:57:43 AM »
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I have used Lightroom trial version (full working) to duplicate what I do in Aperture with exporting and re importing a file.

Temperature 4850
tint 1

Result shows the same levels slight change when I toggle from the original processed image to the re imported tiff IN LIGHTROOM!

Unfortunately either because I am not familiar with Lightroom or it's missing, but the develop stage does not show a colour temperature value with the tiff.
 
This is shown in Aperture!

I think both these raw converters handle imported colour temperature of tiffs the same.

I admit I am out of my depth but think that any tiff imported into one of these will not match the original raw processed file before export unless there is some way to not re process them on import.
I don't know what default import process is being used with non raws and no camera info attached.

In short we are using the software in ways not planned for by the developers.

Just my opinion.
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msbc
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« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2011, 05:04:09 AM »
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Clearair,

See my previous post about TIFF's looking different in Aperture compared to Photoshop, Lightroom, Photo Mechanic, Preview.

Let me state this clearly - I am not comparing the TIFF to the RAW version, I am comparing the TIFF imported in Aperture with the same TIFF 'imported' in the other apps. In Photoshop, Lightroom, Photo Mechanic, Preview the TIFF's look identical with each other. The TIFF in Aperture does not match the same TIFF viewed in Photoshop, Lightroom, Photo Mechanic, Preview.
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James R
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« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2011, 10:18:43 AM »
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James
 But did you export as a tiff to PS or other non raw image application and import back into a raw image application?
Regards



Yes and they look fine.  Msbc is correct about differentiating between RAW and TIFF files.  Don't get too hung up on the temp data in a TIFF file.  If you take pic and jack the temp from 6000 to 14000 and then export as a TIFF, your new file will have a color temp of 5000.  But, the TIFFs from both LR3 and C1Pro look the same regardless of which program I view them on in my various Macs--obviously, I'm using the same color profile in each program, which for me is ProPhoto RGB unless exported to the web. 
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 10:27:25 AM by James R » Logged
Clearair
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« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2011, 11:21:06 AM »
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OK

I see the point, sorry for confusion.
I wanted to look at the raw to tiff in A3 for my own workflow reasons.

To get back to the OP question,
I tried a file of Corfe castle shot yesterday with a big blue sky.
Exported as tiff to my desktop.
Opened in PS3
Re imported to A3 and opened the imported TIFF.

Compared images and then again at 100%

I do not see a difference in the image as a tiff in A3 or a tiff in PS3

So tried a different image of a jazz band shot one summer, different range of colours and contrast.
Same result.

I am using A3 & PS3 not 5, maybe this is a variable.


Monitor
Eizo CG241W calibrated and with a hood.
OS 10.5.8, not 10.6
32bit system and 16 bit files
ProPhoto default in aperture/Photoshop

This monitor has a narrow viewing angle so to avoid my neck working overtime I open only two versions/apps of the image at once.
Eyes, 54 years old.

To lazy to try it in LTR at this time, summer has arrived in Dorset.

Regards

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