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Author Topic: What protection is better for canvas?  (Read 5564 times)
Niki Dinov
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« on: April 12, 2011, 03:55:36 AM »
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Liquid lamination or Hahnemühle Protective Spray?
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Dan Berg
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« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2011, 04:21:24 AM »
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If your stretching then the water based liquid laminates seem to give a little more protection from ink cracking.
The solvent sprays are excellent for flat mounted prints to gator or Dibond.
Throwing a third material into the mix,vinyl laminates give the best protection of all.
You may want to experiment for yourself to see what works best for you.
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fetish
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« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2011, 12:08:22 PM »
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between the 2, i would say liquid lamination. the spray will not do anything towards protecting the canvas.
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Dan Berg
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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2011, 01:15:01 PM »
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between the 2, i would say liquid lamination. the spray will not do anything towards protecting the canvas.

You may be referring to something else when you say "the spray will not do anything towards protecting the canvas"
Spray solvent finishes actually do a very good job in protecting a canvas print from sticky fingers or a spill of wet liquid. Unlike the Timeless and Glamor II products that are not advertised as a uv protectant, Clearstar is one that actually is a uv protectant.
If you have experienced otherwise we would like to hear more.

From our extensive testing
Water based Glamor II and Timeless either sprayed or rolled
Flexibility when stretching.- Excellent
Protects ink from cracking-Fair to good
UV protection - Limited to no uv protection- Poor
Moisture protection - Excellent
Works best for gallery wrapped stretched images as well as all flat mount finishing.

Clearstar Clearjet
Solvent based spray
Flexibility when stretching -Good
Protects ink from cracking -Poor
UV protection -Good
Moisture protection -Excellent
Works best for flat mounted images like gatorboard and Dibond.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 01:46:39 PM by Dan Berg » Logged

bill t.
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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2011, 02:24:54 PM »
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As I see it marketed in the US, Hahnemühle Protective Spray is aimed towards coating paper prints.  I would assume it works best with thin coats.  Cost is rather extreme at anywhere from $16 to $21 for spray cans.  It would probably require several cans to coat a single large canvas.  So it's probably best with small to medium sized paper prints.

OTOH, the various canvas liquid laminates are designed to produce rather heavy coats on fabric.  I use about 360ml of Glamour II concentrate to coat a 44 inch x 2.3 meter canvas, at a cost of around $7.  So there's a pretty big difference!

There's a lot to like about the liquid laminates.  Very tough, I sometimes scrape my fingernails across prints for demonstration.  If you do get a scratch it rarely penetrates to the image.  Scratches and scrapes can be easily and invisibly repaired by recoating or just a little localized brush work.  Also it's very easy to spot coated prints with acrylic paints mixed into some coating.  And thick coatings give you the opportunity to press down bumps and weave errors in the canvas.
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Light Seeker
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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2011, 07:43:22 PM »
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FWIW, my understanding is that Timeless does offer UV protection, and it gets a mention on their website.

I am having some problems with ink cracking (Timeless / Lyve / Canon 8300). While not being pervasive, there is enough that it's annoying. Is this what you mean by "fair to good" Dan, or do I have an issue, such as not using enough Timeless?

Terry.
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Dan Berg
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« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2011, 04:36:38 AM »
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Terry,
Thanks for your input.
With regards to UV protection my "limited" comment was meant for the Timeless and the "no protection-poor" for the Glamor II.
When Timeless first came out this was a big topic. It was said that Timeless was considered a water white or non yellowing product.
Thats different then uv protection to keep the print from fading or discoloring from sun light.
Glamor gets an aged yellow look over time and it seems to be more that the finish is yellowing.
In the event they added something to the potion,improvements are always a good thing.
Some companies use the term uv protection to mean their "product" never yellows.As an example from my cabinetry finishing days. Sherwin Williams produced a water white conversion varnish. Meaning the product itself would never yellow and always stay crystal clear. Had nothing to do with keeping the wood from aging or changing patina. (Like cherry) Was a great product for all light woods and for a top coating over the lighter colored paints we used.
I have multiple samples hanging in very strong sun (Flat canvas not wrapped),testing for yellowing and flexibility.
All exhibit some discolorization. (Not a Wilheim test by any means)


Addressing the fair to good comment on cracking. I generally get very good results.
The fair comment means yes I still have an ocassional cracking issue. Mostly at the folds at the corners. Those tightly folded creases at the corners can be problematic.
 Sorry I did not break my comments down any further,was just generalizing.
Most of my serious cracking issues went away when I had a millwork company run a custom stretcher moulding for me. We added a 1/8" radius on the back bottom of the moulding where you staple. That eliminated all the cracking on that back edge where you staple. The ones I was buying had a square back edge and when you stretched it tight just about everyone cracked in one way or another.
I have fixed the origional air bubble problem when spraying Timeless. Very light coats almost a misting until the surface is sealed. After those have dried and sealed the surface its much easier to lay dovn a heavier coat.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 07:16:20 AM by Dan Berg » Logged

fetish
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« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2011, 11:41:21 AM »
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You may be referring to something else when you say "the spray will not do anything towards protecting the canvas"
Spray solvent finishes actually do a very good job in protecting a canvas print from sticky fingers or a spill of wet liquid. Unlike the Timeless and Glamor II products that are not advertised as a uv protectant, Clearstar is one that actually is a uv protectant.
If you have experienced otherwise we would like to hear more.

From our extensive testing
Water based Glamor II and Timeless either sprayed or rolled
Flexibility when stretching.- Excellent
Protects ink from cracking-Fair to good
UV protection - Limited to no uv protection- Poor
Moisture protection - Excellent
Works best for gallery wrapped stretched images as well as all flat mount finishing.

Clearstar Clearjet
Solvent based spray
Flexibility when stretching -Good
Protects ink from cracking -Poor
UV protection -Good
Moisture protection -Excellent
Works best for flat mounted images like gatorboard and Dibond.

I'm sorry Dan I might have assumed a tad too much.
I thought the reason he presented these 2 options was in the context that he was going to prepare canvas for normal stretching and not other uses like flat mounting or frame behind glass.

when I said protection, I meant protection in most of the activity a canvas piece will experience, which includes stretching, handling, cleaning, etc...

I guess the spray does protect the printing surface to SOME degree like careful handling or accidental skin contact with the surface, and probably also from UV damages. Having gone thru a whole crate of them I would supposed I can say that much about them. I was also the distributor for hahnemuehle products in my country some years back.  Lips sealed


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Light Seeker
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« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2011, 12:09:59 PM »
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Dan, I enjoy reading your posts and I always take something valuable away. I'm glad that you invest here. I misread your UV Protection comment, but the issue was on my end. The summary format is actually very effective.

When I started printing on canvas earlier this year UV protection was one reason I choose Timeless over Glamour 2. Your information about the coating being protected, as opposed to the print, is fascinating. What BC posts is. . .  "Strong UV Protection - Timeless is manufactured with high levels of UV inhibitors". I took that to apply to the canvas, but the wording is actually silent in this regard. I would love to see Mark put a Timeless coated Lyve sample through his testing process so we know how it stands up relative to other media (matte papers, etc.).

The cracking I'm finding is almost always on corner folds too. Some of this I was causing with careless scissor use, but I've improved in that regard. What drove my comments was noticing a few new cracks after a showing I did this weekend. I assume it had to do with handling. I have pigment ink pens that I use for touch-ups so they are relatively easy to correct, but I don't want to see issues once a print is sold.

Thanks.

Terry.
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ftbt
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« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2011, 03:46:30 PM »
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I guess I should have looked more closely ... I really didn't think there was any difference between Timeless and Glamour II in terms of UV protection. I just got my 8300 and have done about 10 24" x 36" gallery wrapped canvases, all of which have been sprayed. The first two that I did, I sprayed the laminate a bit too thick and they took a couple of days to dry ... but no cracking. After that that, I went with 6 to 8 super fine / super light coats. The application time obviously took longer, but drying time was considerably less. However, I did encounter minor. and I mean very minor cracking of the ink, but only in the corners where the canvas was stretched around the bars, which I also easily fixed with my set of colored pigment pens as well.  On the 2 canvases that I did last weekend (also 24 x 36) I applied 4 coats of Glamour II, but slightly thicker than before. No cracking whatsoever on those canvases. However, now I that I seem to have gotten the application amount down, I am wondering whether I should continue using Glamour II?
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John Nollendorfs
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« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2011, 06:06:15 PM »
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Why use those "high priced" liquid laminates costing $80+ a gallon. I've been using Rosco Clear Acrylic gloss, or mixing it with Matte, for over a year with excellent results. List price is only $39.95/gallon. They recommend you dilute it 50-50 with water. Been spraying through $60 cheapo Wagner HVLP gun.

This stuff is not rocket science folks!

John Nollendorfs
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cmp
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« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2011, 10:19:58 AM »
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Why use those "high priced" liquid laminates costing $80+ a gallon. I've been using Rosco Clear Acrylic gloss, or mixing it with Matte, for over a year with excellent results. List price is only $39.95/gallon. They recommend you dilute it 50-50 with water. Been spraying through $60 cheapo Wagner HVLP gun.

This stuff is not rocket science folks!

John Nollendorfs

Is that the glaze? I may have to try this, I'm usually using the protectant from lexjet with the hvlp sprayer.
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Garnick
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« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2011, 12:23:00 PM »
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Just to add another one to the mix, I've been using Premier Imaging's Eco Print Shield(aqueous based) for about 4 years and have never had a problem with cracking or any other issues. Not inexpensive, but it does work very well for me. I roll it on and have done some 24"x10' canvases without issue. It does take a little bit of experimentation to get a good workflow going, but pretty easy to use really. I dilute it 20% and I also mix the Satin and Gloss 50/50 for a "tweeny" look. My customers seem to like that mix the best, although I rather prefer the Satin myself. The product will settle over time, so I usually give it a really good shake once a month to keep it in suspension. Less waste that way. I don't have the facility for spraying, but the 6" foam roller works very well, and I usually apply three coats.  

I hope this is of some help.
Gary
« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 12:26:37 PM by Garnick » Logged
langier
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« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2011, 07:10:04 PM »
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Just finished a print run of about 300 20x30 to 30x40 canvas to be drymounted on foamboard with others printed in between for other projects then stretched and wrapped.

Spraying from a can onto canvas just doesn't cut it and leaves the surface vulnerable except for UV protection. I've tried it and from the cans it's not too even. You need to run a good-quality liquid laminate on them. Some say use a roller, others an HPLV spray system. There are also  large and expensive machines in the thousands of dollars you can buy. However, in researching methods and tools for my project, what I found works pretty well is the ClearStar liquid laminate cut with 20% distilled water and applied using a Daige EZ Glide laminator.

The EZ Glide is available in several sizes and takes a little practice to master. The surfaces look pretty nice once you get the hang of using it. Much more even than spray or rollers and more efficient in the application of the liquid laminate. Get the next larger size than your largest print. I'm using a 50 inch for my 44 inch printer. They are not too expensive with mine retailing for about $600 and found on eBay for about 1/2. Clean-up with water thoroughly after each use to keep the laminate even and streak free.

I can usually run about 24-32 total 30x40 prints in a couple of hours making sure the trough is kept to the fill line.

The ClearStar is available from gloss to matt with semi- and satin also available. You can also roll this on if you just have a small job to do.

For stretching, once the liquid laminate is dry, usually within an hour, you are good to go. It makes the canvas quite stretchable and seals the canvas to protect the image from both UV and surface abrasion. In trying to scratch the surface, it takes quite a bit of effort.

For dry mounting, I'm using a heat-set foamboard. Takes about 4-5 minutes to set at around 160 degrees, F. Works like a charm and my prints are quite stunning once framed and hung!
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Larry Angier
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bill t.
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« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2011, 09:52:19 PM »
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Thanks for that report Larry!

A few EZ Glide questions if you don't mind...

How much leader do you need to feed a print through the rollers?

Have you tried really long prints, like 20 or 30 foot long sections of 44" wide roll?  I'm thinking of several images on the same piece.

How wet is the print when it comes out of the machine?  For instance does it have to remain flat for a time to avoid runs?  Is how wet is the back?

Thanks!

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mikev1
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« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2011, 12:47:31 AM »
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Bill, I have the same concerns as you with really long prints.  I like the idea of the Daige but for really long prints I`m not really sure what I`d do once it comes out the other side.

I`m using the Fuji Sprayer and it is fantastic.  Way less stress than using a roller for large prints.

Mike
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MHMG
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« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2011, 09:37:41 AM »
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When I started printing on canvas earlier this year UV protection was one reason I choose Timeless over Glamour 2. Your information about the coating being protected, as opposed to the print, is fascinating. What BC posts is. . .  "Strong UV Protection - Timeless is manufactured with high levels of UV inhibitors". I took that to apply to the canvas, but the wording is actually silent in this regard. I would love to see Mark put a Timeless coated Lyve sample through his testing process so we know how it stands up relative to other media (matte papers, etc.).


I think that coatings will be the "next frontier" in my light fastness studies. So far, I haven't got a lot of canvas or canvas w/coatings in test, but interest is building, and I'm starting to receive more samples of canvas for testing.  From what I have seen so far, it's an area ripe for new research. The UV inhibiting properties of a coating (that can eliminate direct photolysis), IMHO, are just a minor part of the story. It's the resistance to photo-oxidation and chemical compatibility with the ink and media that are going to be where most of the action is!  Already, I've seen that some of the water-based coatings add to the lightfastness of the image, but some show chemical interaction with the inks which actually reduce lightfastness.  It's going to take far more samples to sort this situation out in a way where we will all be able to make more informed decisions in our ink/canvas/coating choices.  The kind of real world experiences that folks like Dan, Bill, and John have reported are also clearly an important part of the total picture (no pun intended)! As John noted, solvent and water based acrylic dispersions aren't rocket science, so there may well be some ordinary hardware-store varieties that are highly cost effective and work well.

I have a backlog of approximately 50 new samples received in recent months from AaI&A members. I'm working to get those samples all into test right now.  Some of the samples are uncoated canvas. Because I always ask AaI&A members to submit extra copies, there is an opportunity to take the uncoated copies, add appropriate coatings here at AaI&A, and then run the uncoated and coated pairs in side-by-side tests. It's a logical way to extend the reach of the research. I have been using this side-by-side testing approach with paper media, adding some solvent spray coatings like HN protective spray and Print Shield here at AaI&A.  I'm not quite up to speed on all the water-based coatings and how to apply them successfully, but upping the ante to include more water-based coatings is definitely something to consider.   Unfortunately, funding for the yearly volume of tests I'd like to run has been a real struggle because the AaI&A program relies mostly on donations from sponsors and individuals who are not manufacturers of the products I test. It is the only way I can think of for the funding to be freely used for the artists' requested tests rather than just a narrower scope of manufacturers' chosen products.  With enough funds currently on hand to test just 8 of those 50 samples already in the testing cue, the opportunity to add more new samples this year is looking a bit unrealistic.

kind regards,
Mark
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 09:45:35 AM by MHMG » Logged
John Nollendorfs
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« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2011, 10:11:15 AM »
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Mark:
I know how difficult it must be to come up with funding for your research. I commend you on your intestinal fortitude.

I will add some information I just cleaned from the Premier's site regarding their "Ecoshield" water based coating and Canon Lucia inks on canvas' that are semi-matte or gloss in nature.
http://www.premierimagingproducts.com/pc_ecoprintshield.php

Seems that they recommend a lacquer over-coat to "set" the inks to keep them from dissolving.

Quite frankly, why would someone pay the premium for semi-matte, or gloss canvas', and then coat them? I thought these products were basically designed for the "lazy" printers that didn't want to coat their product for the glossy look.

But as Mark has pointed out, the coating is necessary to keep airborne oxidants from attacking the inks sitting in the microporous ink receptor layer. Most reputable printers have long ago discovered that. Jon Cone has been spraying his inkjet prints on art papers for over 15 years.

John Nollendorfs
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langier
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« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2011, 11:25:38 AM »
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Regarding the EZ Glide and coating.

I run 3-4 inches of leader, another inch or so as a trailer. You've got to open the spreader and feed the canvas, then close it and velcro it down. You then pull it through and lay it on a table. I use one table to hold the coater, the second is to lay the print out for initial inspection of the coating and to rework if there are any glitches. The back is virtually dry and I haven't found any issues with that surface.

Since the canvas is very floppy once it's pulled from the coater, my solution is to use cheap wooden dowels and cloths pins at each end then hang it up to dry it on a cloths line in my garage where I do this. With the dowels in place, there is little curling and problems of the wet surface getting dinged during the handling to hang them. It takes about 20-30 minutes for the laminate to dry and then they are good to go. Haven't had any issues with runs, just a few lumps now and then. I run the solution through a screen when I fill the tray so I have few problems with the solids that seem to fall from drips by the lid of the jug.

Once the print is pulled from the EZ Glide, they are mainly damp and not runny. The back is run through the coating system (flood coated), but is squeegeed, so there is little on that surface. They dry pretty quickly, but if you need to rework the print with a roller after pulling, you've got a little time. If I see a problem after coating the print (last prints at the end of the day), I simply run a second coat with a roller.

Since I don't have a lot of space, the largest I've coated is 44x60. I visited my canvas supplier earlier this week and his machine is designed for an entire roll at once. He was telling me that a new machine was on the way for beta testing in a couple of months which will handle sheets and rolls, different coatings and both canvas and paper. We'll see what happens.

HTH,
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Larry Angier
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davidh202
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« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2011, 03:28:31 PM »
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Mark:
 Quite frankly, why would someone pay the premium for semi-matte, or gloss canvas', and then coat them? I thought these products were basically designed for the "lazy" printers that didn't want to coat their product for the glossy look.
John Nollendorfs

Precisely!
When I ordered my first canvas from Pro Imaging Supplies, their rep told me to order the matte canvas (least expensive) since it was necessary to coat the canvas afterward anyway for protection and stretchability without ink cracking!

Just as a note. I just printed and stretched 10 -20x24 wraps on Epsons new Exhibition Canvas Matte and am very pleased with the results. No surface cracking at all, with some pretty tight stretching
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