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Author Topic: Epson papers?  (Read 2327 times)
Mike Guilbault
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« on: April 12, 2011, 08:59:51 PM »
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I don't see many comments about Epson papers.  Their website has some pretty convincing testimonials (yah.. I know they're probably paid, but still).  Are they not considered as good as something like BC or Hahn?
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Schewe
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« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2011, 09:47:32 PM »
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I don't see many comments about Epson papers.

What's your point? What's your question? Which paper?

Both Luster and Exhibition Fiber are very good papers...the newer hot/cold with and without OBAs paper is very good for watercolor papers. Each paper (regardless of the manufacturer) will have it's strengths and weaknesses...lot of people flail about trying to find the "perfect paper" and never really get good at using the paper they have.

Lot's of things to consider when choosing papers...D-Max, OBA's, roll/sheet, look and feel...you should use what makes you happy (regardless of who "makes it").

Fact is, most people have no clue about the paper industry...very few paper makers, very few real options, lots of marketing hype. Some papers have really good quality control sheet to sheet or roll to roll. Some makers, not so much. One package may be good, the next may suck because of irregularities.

Long term, it's prolly better to settles of a relatively few papers that you can achieve the quality and consistency you desire and expect. Constantly switching papers will only confuse the issue of what sort of print are you demanding (or expecting)?

Day in and day out, I really like Epson papers (for the ones I use). Yes, I have a relationship with Epson...so? There's a reason I have that relationship–their shyte ain't bad (meaning I like it).
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Luca Ragogna
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« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2011, 11:52:42 PM »
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They have a lot of different papers that run the gamut. I've used their canvas and I like it a lot. I like Lyve better, but the Epson stuff is also very good. The Epson Luster and Gloss are both really nice papers too. Kind of your standard photo paper for when the clients order a 8x10. The Exhibition Fiber is straight up gorgeous, and much more expensive.

On the other hand the very inexpensive Doubleweight Matte is flimsy and utter crap. They also make a Singleweight Matte which I can't imagine trying to print on.

They sell a ton of other papers and I'm sure there's something in their product line that will fit the bill for you. BC, and Hahnemuhle both seem to target niches, while Epson has a paper for everyone.

The really nice thing about Epson papers is that if you have an Epson printer you probably have a profile for whatever Epson paper you pick and you're almost definitely going to get nice prints out of the box (assuming you don't screw up print settings).
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Mike Guilbault
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« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2011, 06:31:54 AM »
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I guess that's my point Jeff... I don't know.  I've only used Epson Lustre on a 1280, and trying to decide which paper to use for my 4900 (when it gets here).  I've heard problems with getting BC in Canada, not sure about Hahnemuhle, but Epson seems to be readily available.  I don't want to order paper over the internet without seeing/feeling it, so I guess I'm going to have to make a trip to Toronto and see for myself.  I'm assuming Vistek has a decent choice?  Anywhere else I should look?
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howardm
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« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2011, 07:08:46 AM »
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Many mfgr's have swatchbooks that they will either send or sell you for little $ (or free). 

I have one for Epson papers and another mfgr and it gives you a decent feel for which papers you might put on a short
list for getting a sample pack.   After all, if you go to Vistek that is (hopefully) what they will have because they
aren't going to open a bunch of paper packs for you to touch.

And don't forget sample packs.  Most mfgr's or larger paper vendors put them together w/ 1 or 2 sheets of everything in
the product line.

I'm lovin' the Canson papers these days and never really bonded w/ most of the Museo or Innova papers.
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Sven W
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« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2011, 02:53:36 PM »
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I've been running through almost every inkjet paper on the globe, and today I use only Epson and Canson plus some
special media, like film, textile, polyester and proofing papers. Printing on sizes from 13x19" to 60" rolls, sometimes like this week; 45 prints of Canson Baryta 44", 3 prints on Epson Hot Press 60" and 15 prints on Epson SemiGloss 24". So one important thing (besides pure technical) is even quality and consistent delivery. Solid boxes, wrapped and protected. That's what I get from those brands. Week after week.

/Sven
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2011, 03:24:31 PM »
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I don't see many comments about Epson papers.  Their website has some pretty convincing testimonials (yah.. I know they're probably paid, but still).  Are they not considered as good as something like BC or Hahn?

The Epson Proofing White Semimatte is one of the very few RC papers without FBA. High white reflectance nevertheless. Likely candidate to stay here. Epson uses it to illustrate the gamut of the x900 wide format printers. On the HP Z3200 I see similar blues as possible with Ilford IGSP-11 that has a good dose of FBAs in the paper. There is better yellow, red, green, etc in the EPW.

 I replaced the EEM, EAM, or whatever it is called right now by Epson with HP Litho-Realistic Matte: lower price, heavier, no FBA, nice for proofs and lower priced work.

The Epson Exhibition Fiber is very similar to the Innova IFA49 and Moab Colorado Fiber qualities but their weight. Aardenburg observes a paper white shift in time for the EEF.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 04:52:54 AM by Ernst Dinkla » Logged
Sven W
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« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2011, 03:43:51 PM »
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And the scratch resistance on the EEF is unfortunately very poor and its FBA went out in two weeks in a window, resulting
in a yellow paper! I think the EEF is Epson's only black sheep.

/Sven
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Schewe
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« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2011, 05:59:30 PM »
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And the scratch resistance on the EEF is unfortunately very poor and its FBA went out in two weeks in a window, resulting
in a yellow paper!

If your paper yellowed after two weeks of sunlight, something else is going on. OBAs loosing their ability to increase the whiteness doesn't cause yellowing on EFP (and I've been using it since before it came out). Not doubting what you are saying (or seeing), just doubting the root cause. If an OBA quits working, you are left with the natural color of the paper (assuming the OBA doesn't introduce a pattern of reduced whitening-which I've never seen on EFP).

Yes, you need to handle the paper with care to avoid scratching...did you ever do silver gelatin in a chem darkroom? It's about the same...one should always handle fine prints with care...if you care about the prints. White gloves and interleaving and not dragging prints across other prints and proper drying (EFP is really only really sensitive for a couple of hours printing) are sort of required if you are up on your craft.

I know that this paper is a bit polarizing...some people hate it, some love it. I tend to love it (and treat it correctly).
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Sven W
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« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2011, 04:08:37 AM »
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Well, I didn't discover this yesterday. I've been (or trying) printing on Exhibiton since the first day it was on the market.

1. The windows test result can be confirmed by Aardenburg. I tested four Epson papers in 12 months and the EFP dropped
Delta E 9 on the b axis. From a blueish white to a warm white. The low-budget Enhanced dropped Delta E 4, Ultrasmooth 2 and
Luster 2.5. I think that's something to discuss.

2. Have you ever printed a 60 x 100" EFP on a 11880? I can't understand how the manufacturer think you will do, to get that size of a print without scratches. I had to invent the wheel again and construct a ramp/gliders to avoid it. I use tissues from Light Impression and even those give micro scratches in very dark areas. After 24h drying.

3. And yes, I was in the darkroom for 20 years and I never had these problems with a paper.

/Sven
(11880, 9900, 7880, 4900)
« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 05:04:52 AM by Sven W » Logged

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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2011, 04:29:00 AM »
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Jeff,

To extend on Sven's message:

Check Aardenburg's PDFs for the EEF. Not only is the paper white shift at a record high after 200 Megalux hours but that shift started very early too in testing. In 4 reliable tests, 2 of them up to the 200 Megalux hours. The Lab numbers say yellowing, the target images say yellowing. It started with a b -4.8 and ended with b 4.3 and a total DeltaE shift of 9.2, a warmer paper white than Epson Hot Pressed Natural. The overall white reflectance stayed level but for other papers it usually increases slightly right in the first period of testing. I would say FBA fading in the first place. Can be light and/or gas fading. The inkjet inks kept their color nicely but I don't think there would be anything left in the highlights, blue sky that was created with careful editing, softproofing, CM. I see it praised for B&W prints, it may end with unintended split toning.

Comparable FBA containing Fiber papers starting at approx b -4 are Hahnemühle FineArt Baryta that performed slightly better up to 140 Megalux Hours (test still running) amd HM FineArt Pearl that performed much better up to 200 Megalux hours. An Innova F-type Gloss Bright White ended somewhere in between with a DeltaE 4.9 paper white shift at 200MLH. Compared to a cheap paper like Epson Matte Paper Heavy Weight, the EEF was slightly worse on paper white shift at 100 Megalux hours. Enough RC papers with FBAs that do much better than the papers mentioned here.

Third party paper manufacturers have excellent and mediocre papers, Epson has them too. Epson could do something about the Signature Worthy selection of EEF though, there are Epson RC papers with a better paper white shift record.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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MHMG
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« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2011, 08:42:14 AM »
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If your paper yellowed after two weeks of sunlight, something else is going on. OBAs loosing their ability to increase the whiteness doesn't cause yellowing on EFP (and I've been using it since before it came out). Not doubting what you are saying (or seeing), just doubting the root cause. If an OBA quits working, you are left with the natural color of the paper (assuming the OBA doesn't introduce a pattern of reduced whitening-which I've never seen on EFP).

Others in this thread have answered the specific OBA performance issues for EEF thoroughly, but I wanted to add a remark about the commonly cited rationale of a paper merely "returning to natural white" when the OBAs burn out.  First, one doesn't know how white natural white really is with high OBA-content papers because the high OBA content can mask some papers with otherwise relatively poor whitepoint properties. OBAs are an inexpensive way to make a "whiter" paper!  Second, OBA location in the media is critical in terms of both light fade and gas fade resistance of the OBAs. Gas fade is the more vexing issue for high OBA content papers, IMHO. Unlike traditional darkroom papers that have swellable polymer (i.e. gelatin) coatings which isolate and protect the OBAs from direct ozone attack, OBAs in microporous coatings are highly prone to burnout from ozone in the air (they are after all dyes not pigments). For example, the media whitepoint of high OBA content papers like Epson Premium Presentation Paper Matte can be visibly altered in just a few weeks of open air exposure.

Ozone reaches exposed paper surfaces more rapidly by air movement, so the diffusion is usually much faster near the print edges in a photo album or stack of prints than at the center. Consequently, gas-induced OBA burnout will typically not be uniform throughout the print. It will often cause the outer 1/4 to 1/2 inch edge margins of the print to look more "yellow" and obviously discolored than paper white margin areas located just a little farther into the print. The viewer is being shown a direct side-by-side whitepoint comparison of OBA burnout versus less burnout in this situation. To the collector, this non uniform appearance will be definite cause for concern because it will soon undermine the notion that the print is an "archival" print even though the discoloration caused by OBA burnout may indeed stall and not go too much further over time.

regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 08:57:26 AM by MHMG » Logged
Luca Ragogna
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« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2011, 10:12:58 AM »
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I guess that's my point Jeff... I don't know.  I've only used Epson Lustre on a 1280, and trying to decide which paper to use for my 4900 (when it gets here).  I've heard problems with getting BC in Canada, not sure about Hahnemuhle, but Epson seems to be readily available.  I don't want to order paper over the internet without seeing/feeling it, so I guess I'm going to have to make a trip to Toronto and see for myself.  I'm assuming Vistek has a decent choice?  Anywhere else I should look?

Vistek has a good selection of paper and a lot of test prints on the material to show you how an image looks on it. You can check out the Mississauga store (no need to go downtown. In Barrie, Henry's has a so so collection of samples. I have an Epson swatch book I can show you if you like but there's no images printed on there, you'll get a good feel for the paper itself though.

Finally, Costco prints on Epson Luster and Gloss for 16x20 images. You could get them to run you one of each as a sample of those 2 papers.
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Sven W
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« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2011, 01:05:40 PM »
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OBAs in microporous coatings are highly prone to burnout from ozone in the air (they are after all dyes not pigments).

 Mark,
Does it exist pigmented OBA?

/Sven
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2011, 02:08:17 PM »
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Vistek has a good selection of paper.

With a catalog like Vistek has I wonder why Canadians should worry about the availability of papers. The best European and American papers are represented. We have less choice here.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst


New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.html
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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2011, 03:11:53 PM »
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Mark,
Does it exist pigmented OBA?

/Sven
No, they have to be aromatic hydrocarbon dyes that absorb light at one wavelength and emit it at a higher one (the fluorescence).  Pigments in the "classical" sense are chemicals that have a color property based reflectance of light.  Two different mechanisms.

Alan
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MHMG
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« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2011, 03:16:57 PM »
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Mark,
Does it exist pigmented OBA?

/Sven

Not that I'm aware of. However, as others have noted some of the new papers are getting respectably bright and neutral or nearly neutral with b* = 0 to 1 under D50 illuminant (Canson Platine, for example) without adding any OBAs.

The AaI&A database is now sufficiently stocked with enough different media in test that I have recently been able to draw some general conclusions about OBA burnout. I have added a category for OBA content in the AaI&A database under the field name "optical brightener" with categories no, low, medium, and high. Also, a more detailed column called "UV ∆b* influence" which reports the delta b* difference between media white color measured under UV and UV excluded spectrophotometer conditions. My findings are: papers containing "low" OBA content generally do not exhibit significant whitepoint shift caused by OBA burnout. Media in the "medium" OBA category generally show weaker whitepoint stability, but some can still do reasonably well while some don't in my tests. And those papers placed in the "High" category nearly always  underperform in AaI&A lightfastness tests. As a general recomendation, I'd stay away from any of the papers listed in "high" category in the AaI&A database. These optical brightener categories in the AaI&A database can probably very easily be correlated with Ernst's spectral plot data as well.

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

By doing so, you may be able to avoid some problem media Ernst has already measured that haven't gotten into the AaI&A database yet.

So as not to go too OT (sorry about that), EEF falls in the high category and definitely underperforms in lightfastness testing due to its high OBA content. Ditto for Epson Premium Presentation Paper Matte (aka, Archival Matte, Enhanced Matte, HeavyWeight Matte Paper, etc.), even though the K3/K3VM/HDR ink sets themselves show good stability overall on these papers.  Epson Hot Press Bright White falls int the "medium" OBA content category, but it is an example of a Bright white paper with moderate OBA content where the media white color is holding up pretty well in the AaI&A lightfade tests..very nice.

cheers,
Mark
« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 03:21:31 PM by MHMG » Logged
Light Seeker
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« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2011, 04:09:18 PM »
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However, as others have noted some of the new papers are getting respectably bright and neutral or nearly neutral with b* = 0 to 1 under D50 illuminant (Canson Platine, for example) without adding any OBAs.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Canson Platine and Rag Photographique (for example) both use a white pigment to help achieve their brightness and near-neutral base.

Terry.
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Luca Ragogna
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« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2011, 04:33:51 PM »
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With a catalog like Vistek has I wonder why Canadians should worry about the availability of papers.

Vistek is great, no doubt about it. I buy most of my stuff there but I've been pretty vocal about Amplis (the company that supplies Vistek) being not awesome. If I want to print on whatever Vistek has in stock when I walk in then great but I'm looking for a consistent supply of a particular type of paper to be available when I need it. Right now, in Toronto you can't buy a roll of 44" BC Vibrance Luster. It doesn't exist here. That's one reason I'm looking at printing on Epson stock. It's imported by several vendors and retailers carry a large stock so I know that I can pick it up when I need it.
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Sven W
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« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2011, 04:36:57 PM »
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Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Canson Platine and Rag Photographique (for example) both use a white pigment to help achieve their brightness and near-neutral base.

Terry.
(A bit off the OP)

They talk about "....The exceptional smooth white tone is achieved during manufacturing by introducing natural minerals to the process."
What that's supposed to mean.

/Sven
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