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Author Topic: Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (Adobe Standard) color issue.  (Read 33490 times)
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« on: April 13, 2011, 01:16:20 PM »
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The default Camera Profile in ACR 6.x (CS5) of 'Adobe Standard' has a considerable magenta shift. I didn't notice this with the defaults in ACR 5.x (CS4). 
Now that I am aware of this change, I have used the 'Camera Standard' with very good results.  I have also created a Custom Camera Profile for my camera and flash using DNG Profile Editor with excellent results.  My Custom Profile and the Camera Standard Profile are quite close - although both are vastly superior to the Adobe Standard - which is just plain inaccurate.

After seeing the noticable problem with the Adobe Standard Profile, I am now wondering how this somehow became the ACR 6.x default. I am also having a hard time finding any information on this issue from Adobe or anywhere else.
Anyone having info on this issue would be helpful.  Thanks in advance.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2011, 01:51:52 PM »
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The profiles affect different cameras differently (of the same model) otherwise we’d not need to roll our own. Its possible many users are quite happy with the defaults. That is, if their camera behaves much like the camera(s) Adobe used to build that profile, they will get good results.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2011, 04:59:11 PM »
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Thanks Digital Dog.  I have a Nikon D300 and a Canon 60D and I am having the same problem with both using the Adobe Standard Camera Profile.
I can even open some old image in ACR that have the Camera Profile of 4.4 or 4.3 - and they look great.  Now if I change the profile to Adobe Standard, the color shift (quite a magenta shift) happens like the current pictures.
I do portraits and images of known shade patches, that are standardized. Complete color managed workflow, custom White Balances monthly. My main monitor is a 30 inch IPS panel and main printer is an Epson 4880. Eye One Display 2 and custom print profiles or canned Epson paper profiles.  Everything points to the Adobe Standard Camera Profile that has become the default in ACR, verson CS5 (6.x)

This is perhaps a problem to just my cameras or there is a problem with the Adobe Standard in ACD 6.x. 

I am going back through almost a years worth of shoots (since updating to Photoshop CS5) and changing the camera profile to either the camera standard or my Custom Camera Profile (DNG Profile editor) with fantastic results.  Results that look right on.
Of course, the Custom Profile is remarkable - especially in the shadows and saturation of midtones.  I feel kind of silly for not looking closely earlier.
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talninio
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« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2011, 07:13:37 AM »
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We struggled with camera profiles too.
We found out that using other camera profiles creates very interesting results.
You are welcome to learn about Cross Camera Color DNG profiles.
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b2martin
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« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2011, 09:57:16 AM »
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I had a D200 and now a D700 and the Adobe Standard profile just is not correct for either camera.  I am using the Camera Neutral with some modifications to contrast and saturation.  I also have custom profiles generated using the DNG Profile Editor and X-Rite ColorChecker Passport software.  I started doing this when the DNG Profile Editor was first released.  I don't understand why Adobe can't get it right.  
« Last Edit: April 24, 2011, 09:44:11 AM by b2martin » Logged
bjanes
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« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2011, 08:35:17 AM »
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The profiles affect different cameras differently (of the same model) otherwise we’d not need to roll our own. Its possible many users are quite happy with the defaults. That is, if their camera behaves much like the camera(s) Adobe used to build that profile, they will get good results.

If the camera used by Adobe to construct the Adobe Standard profile is different from the OP's camera in its color response, then I would expect the Camera Standard profile created by Adobe using the same camera to also be affected, but the OP seems to be getting good results from that profile with his presumably different camera. Does this make sense?

Regards,

Bill Janes
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digitaldog
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« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2011, 10:22:49 AM »
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Perhaps Eric will see this an chime in. My understanding is, some of these camera matching profiles (at least for Nikon) are a bit different from the other DNG Profiles in terms of mapping white point which might be the reason for this.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2011, 04:58:23 PM »
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Andrew, the main issue we have is that one person's "right" is another person's "wrong". This is one of the reasons why we provide multiple profiles, and tools for users to make/edit their own profiles. Most of our "Camera Matching" profiles that we provide are actually less accurate in my personal testing, but many users like them. For a specific example: Some users prefer stronger tone curves (e.g., for Canon, Camera Standard, Landscape, Portrait) and other users prefer gentler tone curves (e.g., for Canon, Camera Neutral, Faithful). For Adobe Standard (1 profile), there is just 1 tone curve, so it can't be both strong and gentle at the same time. We chose to make it on the stronger side (more contrasty), but this doesn't appeal to folks who prefer a gentler curve.
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2011, 12:24:46 PM »
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Eric, The problem wasn't a tone curve or personal taste issue.  It was a noticeable color miss by the Adobe Standard.  I do think Andrew was on to something on the White Balance issue with the Nikons.  The magenta shift (considerable) is in place after a careful Custom White Balance in ACR - if the Adobe Standard Camera profile is used, as is the default with ACR 6.x. 
The camera is a Nikon D300. Nikon R1C1 flash is the lighting source (100%). Total of 6 R200 flash units in studio.  Xrite White Balance Card for CWB in ACR.
 
The fix was a Custom Camera Profile, created using a Xrite ColorChecker in DNG Profile Editor (perfect color using this profile in ACR)
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stamper
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2011, 02:52:44 AM »
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I would suggest that the flash is PROBABLY the problem. I have a d300 and a d700 and use the Adobe Standard profile without any magenta cast. This also applies to the latest beta profiles supplied by Adobe. Cool
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madmanchan
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2011, 09:11:02 AM »
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Understood. It is possible your particular D300 unit differs significantly from the unit that Adobe used to build its profile. (This is a guess. I cannot prove this, of course, without measuring your particular unit.)
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stamper
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« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2011, 09:38:25 AM »
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Would the camera profile make a difference? If in camera it is sRGB and the pro-filer used Adobe RGB would that cause a cast?
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sniper
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« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2011, 03:12:11 PM »
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I used to have a d300 and never had any issues, with or without studio flash (different make I admit)  You can dial in colour correction in camera, yours hasn't got anything set by accident has it?
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Raw shooter
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« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2011, 04:17:37 PM »
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I used to have a d300 and never had any issues, with or without studio flash (different make I admit)  You can dial in colour correction in camera, yours hasn't got anything set by accident has it?
I shoot Raw only - camera settings don't make any difference here.  Color in ACR, with raw files, is Custom White Balance and Camera Profile.  This should be neutral on color with all Camera Profiles.  The difference between other Camera Profiles is a bit difference with tones (contrast and White & Black points).  The different tones is determined by personal preference - although they all should be base neutral.
The Adobe Standard Camera Profile is the issue in my case.  My only problem is that the Adobe Standard is the default and problematic with my camera. This was a major change from Camera Raw in CS4 to Camera Raw in CS5.  I do wonder about Lightroom too, although I don't use it.
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sniper
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« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2011, 03:04:10 AM »
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I'm not sure the colour correction is ignored by raw (I haven't still got the camera to check now) I'm not talking about the profiles but the colour tuning to shift the "base" hue colour, with Canons (which I now use mostly) the changes are seen by raw, that I do know because one of mine had a cast from new that had to be "tuned out" and I shoot raw.
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« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2011, 07:19:12 AM »
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I'm not sure the colour correction is ignored by raw (I haven't still got the camera to check now) I'm not talking about the profiles but the colour tuning to shift the "base" hue colour, with Canons (which I now use mostly) the changes are seen by raw, that I do know because one of mine had a cast from new that had to be "tuned out" and I shoot raw.
I started a thread on this one some time last year, the short version: no none of your color, contrast, profile etc settings on your camera impacts the raw data in a raw file. These settings only impacts the jpeg preview that is included in the raw file. I tested this with my Nikon D700, and from other posts in that thread i conclude that this is also true for other camera brands. Note that the raw processing application that comes with the camera (in my case nx2) may not give you proof of this. In my test i used Lightroom to process the raws and color mechanic to extract the jpg preview images.
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« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2011, 09:32:41 AM »
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I'm not sure the colour correction is ignored by raw (I haven't still got the camera to check now) I'm not talking about the profiles but the colour tuning to shift the "base" hue colour, with Canons (which I now use mostly) the changes are seen by raw, that I do know because one of mine had a cast from new that had to be "tuned out" and I shoot raw.

A RAW file is not a color image file (it is at best a grey-scale image), ergo it can not have either a color cast or a '"base" hue color'. Any in-camera tuning affects the maker's converter, not the RAW data.
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Peter_DL
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« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2011, 03:09:24 PM »
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The Adobe Standard Camera Profile is the issue in my case.
... This was a major change from Camera Raw in CS4 to Camera Raw in CS5. 

So something must have changed, when changing from ACR 5.x to 6.x:
the Adobe Standard Profile, or the processing through the respective ACR version.

I can't answer the question,
but it seems to be ignored by those who try.

Peter

--
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Raw shooter
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« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2011, 03:32:55 PM »
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So something must have changed, when changing from ACR 5.x to 6.x:
the Adobe Standard Profile, or the processing through the respective ACR version.

I can't answer the question,
but it seems to be ignored by those who try.

Peter

--

Yes, Peter the change from ACR 5 to ACR 6 is the Camera Profile 'Default'
With ACR 5 (CS4), the Camera Profile default was ACR 4.4.
When that upgraded to ACR 6 (CS5), the default became Adobe Standard.  That was the change and the problem with my pictures since upgrading to CS5.

I do believe that Andrew and Eric both chimed in with their opinions (People/ members on LL who know).  Andrew thought there was a 'White Balance' issue with Nikons using the Adobe Standard, and Eric thought is was just a 'personal taste' between users.  I am in agreement with Andrew on this issue.

In my case, I just need to go back though all my shoots since May 2010 and change the Camera Profile away from Adobe Standard.  Besides a bit of work, nothing loss. One of the great benefits from raw file capture. 
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sniper
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« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2011, 06:35:05 PM »
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It works for me anyway!
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