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Author Topic: New Camera To Print video–what do you want?  (Read 11014 times)
Schewe
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« on: April 13, 2011, 06:05:23 PM »
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Folks, next week I'm off to Toronto to shoot a new version of Camera To Print. Since we are still in the what the f$%^&k are we gonna do stage, it would be useful to get feedback on what the f$%^&k we should do. So, what top level issues would you all like to see addressed? Yes, we'll cover the basics again...but if there are top level issues people are having (and wanting to learn about) we would like to address them.

So, the more feedback we get, the better we can work towards giving you all what you want...so what do you all want?
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2011, 06:44:19 PM »
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Jeff, from the stuff I've been reading on the forum, I think a huge emphasis on colour management is essential. Andrew's piece on "why are my prints too dark" provides a nice framework for encapsulating key issues, while in a video you can demo how to get it right and the kinds of things that happen when the most obvious mistakes are made. This would really help a large number of people and cut down the frustration level. While on colour management, there's a terrible amount of confusion abounding about the right tools for getting decent display profiles, and what people really need in terms of custom printer/paper profiling once they leave (or never entered) the cozy world of the Epson papers which have great profiles for Epson printers. Apart from knowing what you're doing in LR and PS, these colour management factors really are the cornerstones of successful print-making and they continue to cause people lots of grief.

A second area that could be further developed is comparative workflow strategies between LR and PS. We see a lot of questions about this. It would be good to compare printing out of LR with printing out of PS, including the steps you would do in either one, to get comparable results. This of course would take in the places and sequencing to do any noise reduction and sharpening.

I think it would help a lot of people to know how much they need to spend on what to get incremental levels of quality and predictability, starting from basic packages which deliver decent results, up to the pro packages which enable, well, pro results if one knows how to use them properly. One sees lots of questions on the forums about how far they need to go in profiling packages for displays and printers, what are the options short of buying this stuff, how good are they, and how expensive a printer do they really need for what they intend - well of course answers depend on requirements, but that's exactly the territory to parse - what do you really need for what you want to do, what you can spend and what you expect.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
feppe
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« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2011, 07:00:55 PM »
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I have the 1st edition, and it's been very helpful as well as entertaining. The huge effort shows, and I'm really looking forward to the next version!

Here's a few to get you started:
- How to test papers, proper sharpening for an image without wasting ink and paper unnecessarily
- How to identify what's the "best" level of sharpening for each image type and paper
- How to choose optimal rendering intent for each image and how to manage out-of-gamut colors in general
- How to prepare and print images which don't have the same requirements as "traditional" landscape images, eg. high-key portraits, soft-focus images from old lenses or Lens Babies, sepia, etc. - in case it's any different
- Adding noise/digital grain is popular for a certain look, or to hide edits and banding, but how much is a good amount to add for print and screen - it's clear the amount should be different
- How to adjust noise reduction from for-screen to for-print
- How does paper choice work with different image content and end-use - glossy, matte, baryta, canvas, etc.
- Updated guidance on when to upres/downres, and does paper choice or image content impact that choice
- To spray or not to spray (longevity, protection, gloss)

And I'm sure I'm not the only who expects a shirt challenging the gamut of our monitors Cheesy

edit: fully agree with Mark on color management (and other points). My modest dye Canon i9950 with affordable Red River Papers went from disappointing to wow when I got a custom profile made, and calibrated my monitor. Emphasizing the need for a fully color-managed workflow and the basics of it is probably the #1 thing to improve one's prints.

Expanding on his last paragraph, it might be useful to have tiers of print output quality, along the lines:
Tier 0 - Have printer, press print, pray
Tier 1 - Invest in color-managed workflow
Tier 2 - Above + sharpening and noise reduction
Tier 3 - Above + testing papers
etc.

The idea would be to prioritize what makes the biggest difference in output quality, and building up on that towards the perfect print - if such a thing exists - while being mindful of diminishing returns on time and money the higher tiers one reaches.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 07:11:06 PM by feppe » Logged

neile
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« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2011, 08:36:44 PM »
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Adding/augmenting the already great info:

1) Since the first video came out there's been an explosion in paper options. For people new to printing it's a dizzying array and they have no clue what the variables are with paper. An overview of the major decision points (paper base, warm/cool, weight, etc.) and then some recommendations for a handful of solid papers to start with, would be valuable.

2) I'll second the colour management piece, except with a focus on what the latest available tools are for display and paper profile creation. Huey, ColourMunki, Spyder3, etc. Compare and contrast and recommend a good option.

3) Canvas is big. Some discussion about the ins and outs specific to printing on canvas, spraying canvas, etc. (probably out of scope for the video, but hey, it's definitely a big market now!)

4) Media types media types media types. How do you *really* decide which media type to use for a given paper if you're building your own profiles.

5) Agree with Mark's last comment regarding the varying levels of printers to pick from. Ron's printer series (http://www.ronmartblog.com/p/printing-series-articles.html) is a nice written thing to point potential printer purchasers to, but the new videos should cover this as well. IIRC the last round started with big (17"+) printers and didn't really talk much about the 13x19"-style printers that are now on the market with the same inksets as the big boys.

Hope this helps,

Neil
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Neil Enns
Dane Creek Folio Covers. Limited edition Tuscan Sun and Citron covers are now in stock!
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« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2011, 08:45:29 PM »
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Show how to use soft proofing in LR4 Beta.......Smiley
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David
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« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2011, 09:11:27 PM »
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For rudimentary printmakers:
paper choices/canvas/coatings

PROPER soft proofing-
color management was one of the first things I thought of, but it has been mentioned

UPREZZing- dpi/ppi/proper manipulation in more detail

talk of monitors, screen types, and luts and bit depth. Graphic Cards for this work
gamut, ink, lighting
& fish shirts
 
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David Sutton
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« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2011, 09:28:36 PM »
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Pretty much what Mark said. Fine tuning and testing monitor and print profiles.
In-gamut shirts  Smiley
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Schewe
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« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2011, 09:34:15 PM »
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Thanks for the feedback folks...this is exactly what will be useful when determining what to cover and in what depth.

Just to let you all know, in addition to the big printers, we'll also be doing work on 13" wide printers (both Epson and Canon). Mike and I realize that 17, 24 or 44" printers are not as mainstream as smaller printers.

Rest assured we'll be diving deep on color management. We'll be working with a variety of displays (NEC and Apple) and talking about the importance of the display and the viewing environment...

We'll also cover sharpening and image optimizing in depth as well as image/print resolutions.

It'll be interesting to talk about substrates (papers). Mike and I have some differing opinions. We will be talking about canvas because it's fast becoming an optimal way of dealing with really large prints.

Keep the ideas coming...it helps!

As for shirts...at least for me, there will be many :~)
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Rusty
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« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2011, 09:53:00 PM »
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While this may be better suited to a where the #$%^& are my pictures update perhaps some suggestions on best practices for ranking pictures and general organizational issues. I've done this and that but it is time for me, at least, to come up with a more consistent organizational workflow. Such as what gets printed, what are pano components, and related use of publish.
thanks for asking.
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neile
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« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2011, 10:59:19 PM »
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It's a small addition, but a quick mention of good ways to package and present and/or ship finished prints would be worthwhile. A cheap bag from clearbags.com and some interleaving tissue from Archival Methods does wonders for perceived value of the finished print from a customer's perspective. I learned the bag source from Bill Atkinson on that LLVJ so long ago where he showed how he mats his prints for presenation.

Neil
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Neil Enns
Dane Creek Folio Covers. Limited edition Tuscan Sun and Citron covers are now in stock!
kevk
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« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2011, 11:23:44 PM »
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I'd like to add a vote to do more on soft proofing - not just how to DO soft proofing, but examples of the steps to go through to get your image looking good again AFTER turning on soft proofing.


Kevin
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abiggs
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« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2011, 11:42:50 PM »
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Here are some of the topics that people come to my studio to learn more about:

Soft proofing
paper selection
printing on canvas
output sharpening options, as well as how to use each of the solutions
why are prints often too dark?
and understanding of how ink is actually put down onto paper
screen to print matching
how to evaluate a print, but subjectively and objectively (by using a standard evaluation image with different 'tests' on the printed image). This is a huge one, to be honest, and one that requires a step by step approach so people can easily understand.
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Andy Biggs
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« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2011, 11:55:42 PM »
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A section on the latest advances in Black and White printing.
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~ Dave ~
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« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2011, 12:42:24 AM »
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The content of the original was so good. I would encourage that, as you add new content, don't throw the baby out with the the bath water.
But do update - I don't know how often I have the following dialog with myself:
"Wait, what is the optimal way to do this?"
"This is how it's described in Camera to Print..."
"But all the hardware and software is different now.?."
I would be greatly interested to hear if you or Mr. Reichmann have more to say about different presentation media for prints. I mean things like Brooks Jensen's folios and less expensive wall hangings for us mainstreamers.
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Christoph C. Feldhaim
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« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2011, 02:59:30 AM »
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I'd like to see some advanced postprocessing.

- In depth sharpening.
- Toning (Midtone contrast, saving highlights and shadows in a way that it looks good, etc ...)
- Processing of high-key and low-key images
- Processing of special light situations: Night photography, High contrast and low contrast situations.
- B/W Conversion

I know some of this had been covered in the old video. E.g. I was was happy when I saw that "Push the blacks and add fill light to add shadow detail" trick, which I had discovered for myself before, but not used that much so far. But I'd like to see much more of this kind of stuff.

Cheers
~Chris
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graeme
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« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2011, 03:07:29 AM »
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A small point.

An update about the color gamut of dye vs pigment printers would be interesting.

Go for it with the shirts.

Graeme
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Philip Weber
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« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2011, 09:38:51 AM »
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There are so many great (and not so great) Adobe Photoshop plugins out there, I'd be very interested in seeing which ones, if any, you and Michael use and where they fall into your workflow.

I realize that detailed tutorials are out there on how to use them but as they're an important part of many people's post processing (mine included, especially Nik and Topaz) I'd be very interested to see this topic addressed to whatever degree is possible, given your time constraints.

The first C2P was GREAT and as I was just beginning in Photography when it came out, I can not tell you how many mistakes it saved me from making and how much better my images and prints looked after watching it. Thanks so much to the two of you for all that you do to assist photographers like me!

Phil Weber 
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Geoff Wittig
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« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2011, 10:58:03 AM »
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I'll be contrarian-
I think there's enough information out there already on color management and the nuts 'n bolts of the imaging chain. I'd like to see a bit more about the artistic side of things- not so much the 'how' of masking and curves moves, but the 'why' of interpretive image editing and printing. More conceptual stuff on leading the viewers' eye through the image and orchestrating its impact.
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Christoph C. Feldhaim
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« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2011, 11:09:51 AM »
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I'll be contrarian-
I think there's enough information out there already on color management and the nuts 'n bolts of the imaging chain. I'd like to see a bit more about the artistic side of things- not so much the 'how' of masking and curves moves, but the 'why' of interpretive image editing and printing. More conceptual stuff on leading the viewers' eye through the image and orchestrating its impact.

+1
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howardm
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« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2011, 11:17:53 AM »
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-1   Shocked

I think the discussion of artistic issues is best left to a different series.

the existing Camera2Print series has always (IMO) stressed a more technical 'how-to' path.
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