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Author Topic: Epson 7890...a not so favorable review  (Read 13481 times)
mikev1
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« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2011, 02:39:40 PM »
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There is a piece of software Epson put out called LFP job monitor.  It works with my 9900.  I have no idea if it will work with the 7890.  It is a more robust version than the history stored in the machine and is not limited to a history of 10 prints.  The data can be stored as CSV files for importing into a spreadsheet program.  It breaks down the ink used by color, gives the printing time, media type used, amount of paper used etc.

It used to tell me how much ink was consumed during a cleaning or ink switch but I think Epson removed this during a firmware update.

Now I suppose some of you would like to know where to download this useful piece of software but I unfortunately can't find any reference to it on Epson's site.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 02:41:21 PM by mikev1 » Logged
Mark D Segal
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« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2011, 03:18:56 PM »
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There is a piece of software Epson put out called LFP job monitor.  It works with my 9900.  I have no idea if it will work with the 7890.  It is a more robust version than the history stored in the machine and is not limited to a history of 10 prints.  The data can be stored as CSV files for importing into a spreadsheet program.  It breaks down the ink used by color, gives the printing time, media type used, amount of paper used etc.

It used to tell me how much ink was consumed during a cleaning or ink switch but I think Epson removed this during a firmware update.

Now I suppose some of you would like to know where to download this useful piece of software but I unfortunately can't find any reference to it on Epson's site.

All gone. There is an LFP Remote Panel, but none of that info is there. They've deliberately made changes to suppress information that can be related to ink usage for maintenance and cleaning. I think this crummy behaviour, but I don't know whether any of their competitors make it any easier.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Randy Carone
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« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2011, 04:45:37 PM »
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Gary,

That makes sense, but I was responding to the fact that the OP said he used Premium Presentation Paper Matte, which is an Epson media and will give the same results whether Printer Manages Color or Photoshop Manages Color. The part that confused me (and possibly the OP) this statement in your first post -  I see a huge error in that department. Letting the printer determine color means that you are not using printer profiles at all. This is not correct. There will be an ICC profile used by the printer.

If the OP was using third party paper, then my response would have included the workflow to choose the third-party ICC profile by using Photoshop Manages Color. Thanks for the clarification on your post.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 04:51:02 PM by Randy Carone » Logged

Randy Carone
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« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2011, 05:01:51 PM »
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Thanks to all for their responses.

It seems to me that only considering the ink the printer uses to print an image is not accurate in determining ink usage and ink cost for a printer.  To my thinking it is akin to only considering the cost of materials ordered online and not taking into account shipping charges that sometimes equal or even exceed the cost of the goods.  If you want to know gas mileage for a car one could only consider the miles driven on the highway and not consider the startup, stuck in traffic, stop and go, idle time, but in the real world those things affect the total gas mileage,  just as the number of ink checks and nozzle cleanings affect the total ink consumption and cost of operating a printer.

The 7890 allows one to look at the percentage of ink in each cart.  This is broken down by color.  It is how I first determined usage.  The amount of ink in the cart before printing, keeping track of sq inches of printed surface on a flow chart, and then checking the percent of ink remaining in each cart.  Many have said my methodology is flawed, which I admit is true, but I do not quite understand why is it more flawed than determining ink usage by trusting Epson internal software to tell you only the ink used to make prints and not considering cleaning cycles and nozzle checks.

I will continue to track the ink usage, but from empty cart to empty cart just like I would check my car mileage....to me this is the only  really true method

I just got the printer, so do not have custom profiles.  I am using Epson Media selecting "Let printer Determine Color" and then selecting the appropriate media, Isn't this the correct work flow which uses the Epson canned profiles?
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Farmer
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« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2011, 05:55:29 PM »
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Firstly, no, that's not the correct way to use the profiles.

You need to let Photoshop manage colouor, then choose the appropriate profile, then in the printer driver turn off colour management to avoid double colour managing.  There are literally hundreds of articles and posts (if not thousands) on this site and others going into the process in detail.  I'd suggest searching on "color managed workflow from Photoshop" or similar.

In regard to measuring your ink usage, the percentages shown by the printer are a rough guide only and should not be used to measure ink usage.  Mark and others have provided the best method for measuring ink usage per print and every who is posting their own consumption figures are coming up with the same numbers, which confirms the validity of the measurements.  I can also confirm that their numbers match what I see.

Yes, it is important to measure ink used for cleaning and such, and you can do this via the method described.  If you continue to use the "percentage" method, you'll find that toward the end of your cartridge that you're using zero ink.  I'm sure many people here will be able to tell you that it often sits on 1% for a very long time (and many, many prints).

In short, you need to read up on color managed workflows (which can use the Epson canned profiles), and you need to change how you measure your ink usage.
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Randy Carone
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« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2011, 06:32:31 PM »
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Phil, I use Let Photoshop Manage Color, choose the ICC profile and print, but if you choose Premium Luster in the Media Type and Let Printer Manage Color and print on Epson Premium Luster, the Epson canned profile will be used by the Epson driver to manage the print color. It is a color managed workflow but is limited to the Media Types that are listed in the Epson driver.
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Randy Carone
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« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2011, 07:27:06 PM »
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Randy, that's absolutely correct, but the problem then is from what I can tell from the OP's comments, he's making other adjustments in the driver to try to match screen to output and the like.  I'm trying to get him into the preferred workflow which encourages monitor calibration and consistency and avoiding making adjustments in the printer driver and instead doing them to the image as required.
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Schewe
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« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2011, 08:12:42 PM »
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I just got the printer...

Which is painfully obvious. Ya know, before posting a "review" (and I use that term very, very loosely) ya might wanna spend some quality time learning how to use the friggin' thing (instead of writing "reviews" and I use that term very, very loosely).

Your ink usage based on % is goofy...that ain't the way to do it. Your lack of understanding how to print in a color managed workflow is, well, kinda an indictment of your knowledge base.

In terms of the ability for the 7890 to out preform a 1280, well, ya might wanna start using some sort of real paper. "Premium Presentation Paper Matte ", really? do you sell a lot of that sort of print?

Sorry bud...but it sure seems you could do with some time at a printing bootcamp. So much of what you are talking about is so wrong, it indicates you really need a lot of help.

And don't give up your day job (whatever it may be) to start writing equipment reviews...that doesn't seem to be in your wheelhouse.
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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2011, 08:26:00 PM »
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Phil, I use Let Photoshop Manage Color, choose the ICC profile and print, but if you choose Premium Luster in the Media Type and Let Printer Manage Color and print on Epson Premium Luster, the Epson canned profile will be used by the Epson driver to manage the print color. It is a color managed workflow but is limited to the Media Types that are listed in the Epson driver.
Your sure?  I see Phil agrees, but it doesn't seem to make sense.  I know using Snow Leopard if you let the printer control color and don't set things up right ColorSync can actually convert the data and sometimes results in a match (but that seems to be a crap shoot .. sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't).

To let the printer take full control of the color with Snow Leopard you have to make sure to select epson Color Controls in the color matching tab, then select one of the options other than no color management in the printer settings tab.  This will often yield a good print, quite close to one printed with PS managing colors, but subtle differences.  If you removed all profiles from the system and print it again using printer manages color it will match the one using printer controls color exactly ... if the driver is applying the profile how come the colors match, since there isn't a profile available?. I'm guessing Windows would show the same result if you fully disabled color management and tested with and without the profiles available on the system.

I think the printer has some basic color conversions built in (some type of "profile") , designed to optimize output from sRGB images on Luster paper (something logical with the consumer printers, so they probably just do it the same way.)  but I'm skeptical the driver is actually applying an output profile.

I really think the only way you can guarantee your workflow is color managed correctly is to do it from PS.
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Randy Carone
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« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2011, 08:51:08 PM »
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I am in total agreement that Photoshop Manages Color is the best workflow and I use it exclusively, along with softproofing. I was just pointing out that there is some color management with chosing Printer Manages Color and using the correct driver settings.

Jeff's point about using quality paper is key. Once high quality paper is printed with a good image and the correct color management, it is hard to go back. I remember the first box of Exhibition Fiber paper I was able to find; 13 x 19 at about 4 bucks a sheet. As I held the first print I thought, "four bucks, no problem". Haven't printed on Enhanced Matte , uh, Ultra Premium Presentation Paper Matte since. Smiley
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Randy Carone
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« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2011, 09:35:29 PM »
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Wayne - it's a bit archaic and not consistent across models, but essentially, the guess-component (for want of a better term) in the "printer manages" scenario is the input profile to the driver (ie what the image is in).

If you match the driver expectation, then you do get a managed workflow of sorts and you do get correct colour output.  The problems stem from the fact that some drivers will want sRGB and some Adobe RGB and that can change depending upon driver settings.

Another reason why none of us do this or recommend this :-)

Of course, Apple has complicated things further, but that's another issue/story!
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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2011, 10:00:13 PM »
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Of course, Apple has complicated things further, but that's another issue/story!
Complicated it for advanced users, but recent changes in OS color management (colorsync)  that now allow the user to control output profiles for standard apps can work for the majority of Apples user base printing from things such as iPhoto and Preview.

I posted my thoughts because I just don't think the driver itself is doing any color conversions which is what Randy was saying in his post. Maybe I"m wrong, but it seems to be happening in the firmware to me, so no real control and not really a color managed workflow.

Regardless, as we've all mentioned, Photoshop should be doing it.  Hopefully the OP can find some training somewhere.

BTW, my ink consumption numbers on my 7900 are pretty much identical to those mentioned.  I did it by tracking ink consumed by job on the job sheets for about 50 prints back when the printer was new.
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Garnick
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« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2011, 10:13:58 PM »
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I really think the only way you can guarantee your workflow is color managed correctly is to do it from PS.


I couldn't agree more. When I first set up the 9900 I did some experimenting. I've used two 7600s for many years, but had never thought of doing this before. I have what I call my "control image", which I print periodically to check for possible hardware problems that won't necessarily show in nozzle checks etc. It's an image I obtained from Bill Atkinsons site when I first downloaded his 7600 profiles, and have used it since. With the 9900 set to go I used that file and printed the way I always have done, PS manages colour, choose the correct printer profile and make sure colour management is turned off. On Prem Luster it looked great and I was happy that there was a definite improvement over the 7600. Of course I have never profiled the 7600s and always used the Atkinson profiles, so I imagine simple wear and tear have take their toll over the years as well with hose printers. After printing my "control image" using the prescribed method I then printed it with "Let Printer Control Colours". Again I chose the proper media type and was surprised that it was almost an exact match to the first print. Notice I said "almost". As I recall, I did see some subtle differences in certain areas of the print, mostly the blues and reds, so it was certainly not a procedure that I ever intended to follow. That and the fact that it was in direct opposition to everything I had ever read about adopting a good, colour managed workflow. Since that little experiment I have never had any urge to repeat it, for any reason, since I knew I'd never have need of it. I also came to the conclusion that it was neither a reliable nor a predicable procedure to be used in a professional setting.

Gary   
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Schewe
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« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2011, 10:15:03 PM »
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BTW, my ink consumption numbers on my 7900 are pretty much identical to those mentioned.  I did it by tracking ink consumed by job on the job sheets for about 50 prints back when the printer was new.

To be clear, you tracked the ACTUAL INK USAGE, not by tracking the "ink cart % used/remaining" right? I've NEVER paid any attention to % remaining used/remaining other than to track when an ink cart might be needed "soon'ish".
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2011, 07:17:17 AM »
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Hopefully the OP can find some training somewhere.


Shouldn't be an extensive search operation. He could start by buying the LULA Camera to Print video tutorial download on this website. There isn't a better value for money anywhere I know of.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2011, 07:21:32 AM »
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The problems stem from the fact that some drivers will want sRGB and some Adobe RGB and that can change depending upon driver settings.


Added to which is the fact that Epson's newest - the 4900 for example - given the right paper - has a gamut gently exceeding parts of the ARGB(98) colour space. So those working in ProPhoto and letting PS manage the colour, could - at least in principle - achieve yet richer prints.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2011, 12:16:10 AM »
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To be clear, you tracked the ACTUAL INK USAGE, not by tracking the "ink cart % used/remaining" right? I've NEVER paid any attention to % remaining used/remaining other than to track when an ink cart might be needed "soon'ish".
Yes.  Printed out the job sheets which shows ink used for each of the last ten jobs by color (i think down to 1/100th of a ml), added all the colors up by job, calculated the square inches.  Added 50 jobs together and then calculated the ink used to be about 1.46 ml/sq.ft.

Your right ... the % thing isn't much use, especially when a full 150ml cartridge shows the same amount of ink as a 700ml.  Only thing it's good for is to let you know when to make sure you have a replacement ... which I don't install until the printer actually stops and demands it mid job.  Throw it away too soon and that could be 10% of the capacity in the trash.
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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2011, 12:18:44 AM »
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Shouldn't be an extensive search operation. He could start by buying the LULA Camera to Print video tutorial download on this website. There isn't a better value for money anywhere I know of.
Agreed ... and very reasonable considering the wealth of information, especially to someone just getting started.
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« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2011, 05:18:18 AM »
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Yes.  Printed out the job sheets which shows ink used for each of the last ten jobs by color (i think down to 1/100th of a ml), added all the colors up by job, calculated the square inches.  Added 50 jobs together and then calculated the ink used to be about 1.46 ml/sq.ft.

This is great, as it comes very close to other calculations of about $.50 a square foot.  I would be curious to know what media the calculation was based on.  Another poster indicated a greater usage on Matte paper.  As I mentioned earlier I will continue to check my usage from empty cart to empty cart to see what the total usage is including cleaning and nozzle checks. 

As far as being a beginner, well I admit I am not a techie, but I have been as a working full time photograher for over 20 years now.  ( No trust fund or rich wife or doting parents carrying my load either)  I am opening myself to further criticism by some I am sure, but you can see my work and profile at www.jkwhitephoto.com.

As far as a printing workflow goes.. I use Adobe RGB in PS  then select that space also in the Print driver and select Let Printer Determine and select the correct paper type in the driver. 

From Ian Lyons :  Print Workflow 1

"The default configuration for the Print with Preview dialog is shown below as Figure 2. Notice that Color Handling is set to Let Printer Determine Colors. For the purpose of this tutorial we'll call this setting Print Workflow 1.

If you've just upgraded to Photoshop CS2 from an earlier version then Let Printer Determine Colors is the direct equivalent of Printer Color Management in Photoshop 7 and CS. Let Printer Determine Colors is probably the easiest and safest choice for new Photoshop users or those who are not yet familiar with how to integrate printer ICC media profiles into their workflow.

When you choose Let Printer Determine Colors you're in fact informing Photoshop that the document should be passed directly to printer driver complete with details of the ICC profile listed against Document. Photoshop will not make any adjustments to the document colours nor will it take any account of the media specified in your printer driver. By tagging the document with the ICC profile Photoshop is providing the printer driver with all the information required to ensure accurate colour rendering of the print. The document colour management is handled solely by the printer driver."

I will check the other method ..."Photoshop Determine Colors"  to see if I get better results, but with lots of prints it is a bother to change especially when what you are doing produces good results.

Now I need to get back to my day job...as a photographer
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Doombrain
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« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2011, 05:22:19 AM »
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www.myepsonprinter.com
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