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Author Topic: Layers for Lightroom!?  (Read 12674 times)
digitaldog
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« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2011, 07:34:00 PM »
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My view is that if it can be done parametrically that it is nice to have it in Lightroom. If the plugin does involve conversion to bitmap image I may see less benefit.

Totally agree. That said, does anyone know? I can’t see how it can’t be using rendered data, unless this is the first plug-in to access the raw processing engine inside LR (which I seriously doubt). And it does this in Aperture too right? So it seems its got to be a rendering to bitmap trick. If so, not useful to anyone who happens to own Photoshop.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2011, 07:38:30 PM »
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There are very few engineers calling the shots these days.

With regards to Lightroom and in particular, you're wrong. Adobe is very entrepreneurial and engineering (or what the engineers WANT to do) plays a much bigger role than you would think. There's this guy named Thomas Knoll you know, same guy that coauthored Photoshop? He literally owns control over Camera Raw and the Camera Raw pipeline inside of Lightroom. If Thomas wants to do something, he does it. If he doesn't want to do something, he doesn't. Any major conceptual change to the Camera Raw pipeline (such as adding layers) would go through him. The thing about Thomas is he is so consistently right in the decisions he makes. He's a touchstone for Adobe (not to mention being a sacred cow–in a good way). If you can't convince Thomas that doing something is the right thing to do, you simply have no traction...
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« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2011, 08:12:59 PM »
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Hi,

My view is that if it can be done parametrically that it is nice to have it in Lightroom. If the plugin does involve conversion to bitmap image I may see less benefit.

Best regards
Erik



Lightzone is a good example of how it can be (or should be) done (except of course that it was done in Java) -> http://www.lightcrafts.com/lightzone/
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AveryRagan
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« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2011, 12:52:33 PM »
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"I don’t want LR to be Photoshop."


My sentiment exactly, I hope that they will continue to improve the adjustment brushes and as Schewe mentioned, possibly something in the panoramic area. HDR wouldn't be bad though. I've had PS for a long time but LR makes it fun again.
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W.T. Jones
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« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2011, 12:58:30 PM »
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I just did this using Perfect layers, It is a 4 image focus stack, I am by no means an accomplished Photoshop or layers guy at all. Also this is the first time I ever attempted a focus stack. I am well enough pleased. Basically I lined up the 4 images with the move tool, and used the masking brush to reveal the in-focus areas of each layer.
When the images are sent Perfect Layers they are saved back to Lightroom as a PSD.  It was easy enough to use the program but it was a bit slow on my PC.

I did sit through most of the OnOne tutorials which I found helpful.

It seems to me anyway to be a good addition to Lightroom especially for simple things like blending a few layers.

Edit: the shot taken with a 100mm macro lens & 68mm of extension tube, the flower is about 10mm across.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2011, 01:02:23 PM by W.T. Jones » Logged

Warren
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« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2011, 11:29:39 AM »
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I have been following this "annoucement" from onOne and dismissed it right away. I have CS5 & LR3 so I saw no need for the product. But at the end of a youtube webinar(on the Develop Panel in LR3)given by Seth Resnick just this last week, he had a "treat"(his expression) about the lightroom layers. At about the 50 minute mark he starts a brief demo and announced that he would be doing a webinar of the product next monday(25 April 2011).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctTV3O9rCqA
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« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2011, 12:39:51 PM »
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May I recommend: http://regex.info/blog/2011-04-23/1753
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2011, 02:21:45 PM »
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Interesting post but why would Seth Resnik be doing tutorials on this (if true)?  Is the money too good to pass up?
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digitaldog
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« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2011, 02:49:12 PM »
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Interesting post but why would Seth Resnik be doing tutorials on this (if true)?  Is the money too good to pass up?

Don’t know. I see nearly zero value in the product based on its current price point. At say $59, OK sure. Its got to be significantly less than Elements (which does more) and be a product that someone who has neither Elements or Photoshop feels they need.

I will say, he hype machine on this product has been excessive.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2011, 03:55:28 PM »
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Maybe we're all being fooled and the real idea is to generate so much bad publicity that everyone knows who onOne are? You know, the Charlie Sheen or Lindsay Lohan strategy.
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KeithR
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« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2011, 04:15:47 PM »
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... why would Seth Resnik be doing tutorials on this (if true)? 
Since Seth is the one saying it(on the youtube video @ ~ the 50:09 minute mark) I've got to believe he'll be doing it. Why(money aside) is indeed the question.
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« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2011, 09:22:42 AM »
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So another interesting data point. Plug-in author Jeffrey Fridel, who’s produced some very useful products has decided to give a layers in LR type product a go:

http://regex.info/blog/2011-04-25/1755

http://regex.info/blog/lightroom-goodies/layers

Quote
Quote:
— Jeffrey's “Photoshop Layers” Lightroom Plug —

It's slow and a bit kludgy — definitely not “Layers in Lightroom” — but unlike other external-editor solutions like the hyped app, this plugin allows for a non destructive workflow.

With it, you build a persistent link between images in Lightroom and layers in a new Photoshop PSD that's added to your Lightroom catalog. You can edit that new PSD pretty much as you like... add new layers, resize, crop, transform, mask, add text layers, run actions and filters, edit pixels, etc.

But the key here is that if you make subsequent edits to the originals in Lightroom, those edits are reflected through the Photoshop edits and back into the composite in Lightroom..

Some might call this a “game changer” . I'm not sure I'd go that far, but it'll sure be handy at times.

The plugin page explains it more, but all in all, this plugin might be described as:

“   A slow but mostly-effective way to get a somewhat layer-like experience in a Lightroom non-destructive workflow by using Photoshop as an external rendering engine.   ”
It's still very beta, so I'm looking for feedback of all kinds, including how you find it useful, where it's not quite enough to be useful, etc.

How much I work on this in the future depends on the kind of feedback I get. If you think it'll be useful for you, let me know, and if you think it's a waste of time, let me know that too. (The first reply I got from the first group of friends that I released it to was “not worth the effort”, but I disagreed, so here we are.)

Frankly, the method I've come up with for this plugin could be used with Perfect Layers (and other editing applications) if some relatively-small hooks were added to them and their companion Lightroom plugins, and so if OnOne is watching, here's your chance to have your product actually come close to living up to its hype. That would be a good thing for the Lightroom community, so I hope you do. It took me one afternoon.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 09:25:37 AM by digitaldog » Logged

Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2011, 10:19:31 AM »
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Since Seth is the one saying it(on the youtube video @ ~ the 50:09 minute mark) I've got to believe he'll be doing it. Why(money aside) is indeed the question.

I haven't asked Seth yet (I will) but my assumption is that since Seth has really committed to a Lightroom workflow, a solution that allows light duty layers within Lightroom without needing Photoshop is attractive. Knowing Seth, I rather doubt Seth would ever do anything just for the money...
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« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2011, 01:55:25 PM »
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I haven't asked Seth yet (I will) but my assumption is that since Seth has really committed to a Lightroom workflow, a solution that allows light duty layers within Lightroom without needing Photoshop is attractive. Knowing Seth, I rather doubt Seth would ever do anything just for the money...

I just watch the Webinar today from Oneone where Seth Resnik did a demo using Perfect Layers. He did mention during this Webinar that he was going to use Perfect Layers in his workflow. The demos he did where pretty interesting. He did make the point this current free version is just a Public View so there may be some problems that could occur. If you view: http://www.ononesoftware.com/support/1744/ there is a list of upcoming features that will be available in the final version.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2011, 02:23:57 PM »
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He did mention during this Webinar that he was going to use Perfect Layers in his workflow.

Why is the $64K question, pretty sure Seth has Photoshop <g>.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2011, 02:32:22 PM »
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With regards to Lightroom and in particular, you're wrong. Adobe is very entrepreneurial and engineering (or what the engineers WANT to do) plays a much bigger role than you would think. There's this guy named Thomas Knoll you know, same guy that coauthored Photoshop? He literally owns control over Camera Raw and the Camera Raw pipeline inside of Lightroom. If Thomas wants to do something, he does it. If he doesn't want to do something, he doesn't. Any major conceptual change to the Camera Raw pipeline (such as adding layers) would go through him. The thing about Thomas is he is so consistently right in the decisions he makes. He's a touchstone for Adobe (not to mention being a sacred cow–in a good way). If you can't convince Thomas that doing something is the right thing to do, you simply have no traction...
I'd be happy to be wrong on this one.  My personal view is I think market driven products more often than not result in a compromised product.  Yet, it would be an exception.   And I do believe as products mature they're often taken in directions not originally intended. 

Still not interested in panos or hdr inside LR though.. Smiley  I'd just like to see what the function they have already, work better, and take better advantage of the newer hardware.

Oh.. and it wouldn't bother me if they discontinued the Mac version and put all their efforts into the PC version either..  Grin
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« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2011, 04:56:37 AM »
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I downloaded the public beta to use with LR 3.4 on my MacPro 8-core, 32GB RAM.

It's actually a very nice program. It's easier to use than Photoshop so I think that it enhances the LR-only workflow. The results are very good.

That said, I already own PS CS5 so the idea of spending $160 on the Layers plugin is not justified for the few times that I need it. But it may be worth the investment if I don't see the need to pay for the next PS upgrade. That's unlikely for me, but for many LR-centric users, it may be a good choice.

You still end up with a new PSD file with the plug in. It would be much cooler if the program accomplished it's mission completely in metadata so that you don't end up with more giant files to manage. If that were the case, then I think more folks would buy the plugin, even those who already own PS.

Now if they add perspective correction as a plugin and combine it with the layers plugin, I'm a definite buyer. Just for the convenience alone.

Cheers.
Bud
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Bud James
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« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2011, 05:27:23 AM »
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I downloaded the public beta to use with LR 3.4 on my MacPro 8-core, 32GB RAM.

It's actually a very nice program. It's easier to use than Photoshop so I think that it enhances the LR-only workflow. The results are very good.

That said, I already own PS CS5 so the idea of spending $160 on the Layers plugin is not justified for the few times that I need it. But it may be worth the investment if I don't see the need to pay for the next PS upgrade. That's unlikely for me, but for many LR-centric users, it may be a good choice.

You still end up with a new PSD file with the plug in. It would be much cooler if the program accomplished it's mission completely in metadata so that you don't end up with more giant files to manage. If that were the case, then I think more folks would buy the plugin, even those who already own PS.

Now if they add perspective correction as a plugin and combine it with the layers plugin, I'm a definite buyer. Just for the convenience alone.

Cheers.
Bud

Did you check the Jeffrey Friedl plugin? http://regex.info/blog/lightroom-goodies/layers#5
It's still an early version but the fact that you can merge layers in Photoshop CS5 as smart objects and go back and reeedit the original pictures in Lightroom and later update the layers and maintain you other edits in the PSD file is really cool. I wish that we at some point get a facility in Lightroom that can create a new object in Lightroom that is a composite of other objects and that can be edited and entirely as metadata. I doubt this will happen anytime soon (if ever Wink ). Until then a more polished version of Jeffreys plugin is definitely a very smart (pun intended Smiley ) way to do things.

Did you know that you can do perspective correction under lens correction? Go to manual and use the vertical, horizontal and rotate sliders. It works pretty well.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2011, 08:39:45 AM »
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Did you check the Jeffrey Friedl plugin? http://regex.info/blog/lightroom-goodies/layers#5
It's still an early version but the fact that you can merge layers in Photoshop CS5 as smart objects and go back and reeedit the original pictures in Lightroom and later update the layers and maintain you other edits in the PSD file is really cool.

I agree, I’ve played with it and think its way, way more useful than the OnOne plug-in over hyped by Kelby on his blog. For one, you do retain a true non destructive workflow. You can bounce back and forth from LR and Photoshop all while keeping the parametric edits, update the stuff in LR etc. Next, if you are one of those people who like to work with Smart Objects in Photoshop, don’t use CS5 but use LR3, no issues as all the processing is done by LR not ACR. IOW, if you had CS4 and LR3 and wanted to re-edit your raws in a Smart Object, the new functionality in LR (PV2010, Lens Correction) can’t be used with the SO as ACR 5 in this case is older. With Jeffrey’s plug-in, not an issue. And there’s no way should the product ship, it will be anything but a fraction of the cost of the other Layers Plug-in which is ONLY useful for people without Photoshop or Elements. In fact if you are in that boat, just buy Elements.

OnOne needs to lower the price way below Elements for one. And they need to tone down the Kelby marketing rhetoric even more. About the only good thing to come from that hype feast was Jeffrey creating this plug-in which allows those who want to do their parametric edits in Develop instead of ACR (or have older versions of ACR).
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2011, 12:30:30 AM »
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I agree, I’ve played with it and think its way, way more useful than the OnOne plug-in over hyped by Kelby on his blog. For one, you do retain a true non destructive workflow. You can bounce back and forth from LR and Photoshop all while keeping the parametric edits, update the stuff in LR etc. Next, if you are one of those people who like to work with Smart Objects in Photoshop, don’t use CS5 but use LR3, no issues as all the processing is done by LR not ACR. IOW, if you had CS4 and LR3 and wanted to re-edit your raws in a Smart Object, the new functionality in LR (PV2010, Lens Correction) can’t be used with the SO as ACR 5 in this case is older. With Jeffrey’s plug-in, not an issue. And there’s no way should the product ship, it will be anything but a fraction of the cost of the other Layers Plug-in which is ONLY useful for people without Photoshop or Elements. In fact if you are in that boat, just buy Elements.

OnOne needs to lower the price way below Elements for one. And they need to tone down the Kelby marketing rhetoric even more. About the only good thing to come from that hype feast was Jeffrey creating this plug-in which allows those who want to do their parametric edits in Develop instead of ACR (or have older versions of ACR).

Andrew,

Isn't this what is great about the current state of software development?  LR users who have PS can use Jefferey's software and those who don't have options.  I like what Jefferey has done, I just wish he hadn't resorted to flame throwing at Kelby.  For all of Kelby's shortcomings, he has helped 10 of thousands of photographers with his books and training seminars. Years ago, Scott saw a need and filled it.  He is a talent and great marketer; and a good writer who knows how to communicate.  Those of us who have moved from film to digital owe much to those who have published educational PS books.  Your book is within arms reach as I write this.  

As to Perfect Layers, there is a market for the product or OnOne wouldn't have wasted its time and money on it.  Those who can work quickly and efficiently in PS are fewer than we think and most are probably not photographers.  If Perfect Layers works for those who adopt it, then money well spent.  Those of us who don't see the value will keep our money.  Not sure why Jefferey needed to dump on others.  I guess that's what happens when egos collide.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 02:09:07 AM by James R » Logged
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