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Author Topic: Layers for Lightroom!?  (Read 10821 times)
john beardsworth
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« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2011, 08:14:29 AM »
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The trouble is, James, that Scott & co came very close to being deceptive (others wouldn't be so kind). Proper professional advice would have been along the lines of here's an interesting product that's rather over-priced and not quite what they say it is, and you non-PS folks should buy Elements if you want the feature. Instead it was an "awesome" "game-changer" and a very half-hearted attempt to laugh off the criticism as a syntax issue.

"As to Perfect Layers, there is a market for the product or OnOne wouldn't have wasted its time and money on it. " Well, the road is littered with all sorts of misconceived turkeys too!

John
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digitaldog
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« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2011, 08:21:51 AM »
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 I like what Jefferey has done, I just wish he hadn't resorted to flame throwing at Kelby.
I’m with Jefferey, Kelby deserves it, lost about any credibly I had for him after the blog post, the nonsense he then spouted on “The Grid” (see: http://regex.info/blog/2011-05-04/1761), taking banner ads for the product he was hyping, sending out his minions (RC, Matt) to defend his position etc. All he had to say was “I got caught up in the excitement of the product, I wasn’t clear on what it did in the blog, let me clarify...” he didn’t. Just the opposite, he continued to over hype the product and get darn nasty with anyone who might disagree with the position. He doesn’t dealing with people who disagree with him to the point that a discussion to come to mutual understanding is a goal.

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 For all of Kelby's shortcomings, he has helped 10 of thousands of photographers with his books and training seminars.

By selling them goods. And that’s fine too. The same could be said of Fraser, Schewe, Caponigro, Reichmann, Eismann. The differences are those guys all have far more credibility in my book, a nearly zero BS factor unlike Kelby, and will admit when they are wrong or learned something new. They are willing to have an open, mature discussion.

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He is a talent and great marketer; and a good writer who knows how to communicate
I’d agree with point on 100% and less so for point B. The problem is, a lot of this must have gone to his head because he’s become the PT Barnum of digital these days. Its unnecessary.

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As to Perfect Layers, there is a market for the product or OnOne wouldn't have wasted its time and money on it.
 
I have nothing negative to say about the OnOne other than the price point they appear to aiming at is simply ridiculous compared to what you can get elsewhere providing more functionality. At $49, I think its wonderful. I have nothing negative to say about OnOne’s products or people (some I know). They got suckered by Kelby a bit in terms of giving him credit for this product in large part, for letting him foam at the mouth about it on his blog and elsewhere and for probably getting suckered into a non realistic price point for what the product provides (or will provide).   

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If Perfect Layers works for those who adopt it, then money well spent.
At $160 a pop? I have serious doubts. But that’s not the issue. The issue really isn’t “if its right for you buy it”, its about someone so many respect for deeds of the past, spewing marketing nonsense at that audience then totally dismissing anyone who questions the appearance of marketing BS, belittling anyone who questions the clothing of lack thereof on the emperor.
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Andrew Rodney
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digitaldog
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« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2011, 08:22:37 AM »
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delete dupe post
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 08:24:23 AM by digitaldog » Logged

Andrew Rodney
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James R
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« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2011, 11:33:20 AM »
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The trouble is, James, that Scott & co came very close to being deceptive (others wouldn't be so kind). Proper professional advice would have been along the lines of here's an interesting product that's rather over-priced and not quite what they say it is, and you non-PS folks should buy Elements if you want the feature. Instead it was an "awesome" "game-changer" and a very half-hearted attempt to laugh off the criticism as a syntax issue.

"As to Perfect Layers, there is a market for the product or OnOne wouldn't have wasted its time and money on it. " Well, the road is littered with all sorts of misconceived turkeys too!

John

I don't disagree with you, other than you might consider me a non-PS guy.  I'm coming back to LR from CaptureOne and I'm very comfortable using PS.  I also have no desire to buy Perfect Layers.  My obviously improperly stated point is Scott Kelby is a self promoter who found his niche and people like it.  Apparently, unlike many here, I never put Scott on the same integrity level as I do many who post on this site.  But, the fact is people like him and few of them will ever read Jeff's rant, let alone change their opinion.  However, they might use a better layer application.  These rants sound like sour grapes. IMO, Jeff was preaching to the choir. 

As to price, OnOne can charge what ever they want.  Software is pretty much a buyer-beware product.  If they are willing to pay the price and use it, then they got value.  Maybe not in your opinion, but you didn't buy the product.  Also, why are you surprised or upset at the hype?  That is Scott's specialty, and maybe he really believes in this product.  I don't know, he doesn't call em.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2011, 11:44:18 AM »
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As to price, OnOne can charge what ever they want.  Software is pretty much a buyer-beware product.  If they are willing to pay the price and use it, then they got value.  Maybe not in your opinion, but you didn't buy the product.  Also, why are you surprised or upset at the hype?  That is Scott's specialty, and maybe he really believes in this product.  I don't know, he doesn't call em.

I agree with your points. But the disappointment here is that so many go to Scott and his blog (or books, or lectures etc) to get opinions that are supposed to be good for them, not the other way around. We have a product that has Scott’s hand in it (he and OnOne make a big deal that Scott was involved with the product and design). We then hear uber hype about it (its a game changer). We witness banner ads on this and other Kelby blogs and sites for the product. When people ask, at the current suggested price point, why this product is worthwhile instead of say Elements (which does more, cost less), there’s blow back and its ugly blow back too. People go to Kelby and expect somewhat unbiased, useful advise. That’s not his driving motive any more. Its about making bucks. That is what’s most disappointing here. He could have said he was involved, proud of the product and got caught up in the excitement and wrote a blog post that should have been reviewed and edited. That’s the response from a lot of comments calling him out. He got pissy. He got his employees pissy too. Matt made it sound like the comments were uncalled for (the bit about Layers IN LR being a semantically incorrect wording, everyone is over reacting). If you look at the various ‘negative’ comments, most were just asking the boys to reflect on what they wrote and reduce the marketing BS, the opposite happened.

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Andrew Rodney
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James R
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« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2011, 12:01:05 PM »
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The problem is, a lot of this must have gone to his head because he’s become the PT Barnum of digital these days. Its unnecessary.
 
I have nothing negative to say about the OnOne other than the price point they appear to aiming at is simply ridiculous compared to what you can get elsewhere providing more functionality. At $49, I think its wonderful. I have nothing negative to say about OnOne’s products or people (some I know). They got suckered by Kelby a bit in terms of giving him credit for this product in large part, for letting him foam at the mouth about it on his blog and elsewhere and for probably getting suckered into a non realistic price point for what the product provides (or will provide).   
At $160 a pop? I have serious doubts. But that’s not the issue. The issue really isn’t “if its right for you buy it”, its about someone so many respect for deeds of the past, spewing marketing nonsense at that audience then totally dismissing anyone who questions the appearance of marketing BS, belittling anyone who questions the clothing of lack thereof on the emperor.

I certainly agree that Scott has become the PT Barnum of digital these days.  I don't think it's a problem though.  He is giving the masses what they want.  If not Scott, then somebody else. 

Time will tell whether they priced the product right.  I'm sure they know their customers better than I do.  If they are wrong, the price will drop or the product will be scraped.

Integrity takes a lifetime to build and can be thrown away in a second.  His audience will decide whether he is credible or not.  It is in his interest to promote good products.  As more peal off because they view him through the same prism as you, his popularity will diminish.  He will either change or consider those "defectors" as a cost of doing business. 

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James R
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« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2011, 12:08:50 PM »
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I agree with your points. But the disappointment here is that so many go to Scott and his blog (or books, or lectures etc) to get opinions that are supposed to be good for them, not the other way around. We have a product that has Scott’s hand in it (he and OnOne make a big deal that Scott was involved with the product and design). We then hear uber hype about it (its a game changer). We witness banner ads on this and other Kelby blogs and sites for the product. When people ask, at the current suggested price point, why this product is worthwhile instead of say Elements (which does more, cost less), there’s blow back and its ugly blow back too. People go to Kelby and expect somewhat unbiased, useful advise. That’s not his driving motive any more. Its about making bucks. That is what’s most disappointing here. He could have said he was involved, proud of the product and got caught up in the excitement and wrote a blog post that should have been reviewed and edited. That’s the response from a lot of comments calling him out. He got pissy. He got his employees pissy too. Matt made it sound like the comments were uncalled for (the bit about Layers IN LR being a semantically incorrect wording, everyone is over reacting). If you look at the various ‘negative’ comments, most were just asking the boys to reflect on what they wrote and reduce the marketing BS, the opposite happened.


I agree with you.  But, if he is not listening to criticism, then let it go.  He will change or somebody else will fill the whole he left in the digital world, to keep with the hyperbole theme.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 12:11:56 PM by James R » Logged
digitaldog
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« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2011, 12:18:34 PM »
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I certainly agree that Scott has become the PT Barnum of digital these days.  I don't think it's a problem though.  He is giving the masses what they want.

Well the reason I consider him PT Barnum is due to his famous quote about suckers. I try not to consider myself one, maybe that’s why his more recent attitude rubs me the wrong way. If the masses listening to Kelby enjoy being thought of and treated like suckers, or really are suckers and don’t know it, not much I can do for them. There was a time I had far more respect for the guy and his organization, now I have distanced myself as much as possible from it because of my opinion of their lack of integrity. Maybe I’m naive. I think one can promote, market, make money and help people at the same time but its a fine line to walk. And if you cross the line and get called out for it, maybe address the issue.

There’s also some real questionable Kelby slants towards the technology being taught that I find surprising and disappointing (the entire “soft proofing doesn’t work, if your prints are too dark, just lighten the files”). Basically it seems, the disseminating information has to be distilled in 7 or less easily digestible steps, aimed at an MTV attention deficit mind set.

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Integrity takes a lifetime to build and can be thrown away in a second. 
So true.
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Andrew Rodney
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stamper
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« Reply #48 on: May 25, 2011, 03:27:22 AM »
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I bought a couple of his books a few years ago and found his zany sense of humour OTT. It got in the way of anything meaningful he had to say. For that reason I haven't read his blogs. The best description of him that I have read is. A business man writing books for Photoshop. Sad
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James R
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« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2011, 06:08:23 PM »
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As a rule, Photoshop books are pretty dry.  Kelby reaches those who are at the low end of the learning curve with his light, humorous  approach.  His style is not to our liking, but he reaches a whole different audience and his sales attest to that.  Funny thing, I became familiar with him when I first moved to digital.  I was surprised when he released his first in a series of how to photography books--no idea he fashioned himself a photograph.  I'm certain his connection to Moose Peterson and other pros is more about money than his photographic skill.  Now-a-days, pros have to do more than sell beautiful pictures, they need to do seminars, webinars, and photo expeditions.  Kelby is a conduit to a large, untapped audience.  Can't blame them, they've got to eat and Kelby delivers.    
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 06:12:05 PM by James R » Logged
digitaldog
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« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2011, 06:16:25 PM »
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Can't blame them, they've got to eat and Kelby delivers.    

And afterwards, this lady come onto the scene to finish up <g>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiz42ffF3tY
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Andrew Rodney
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James R
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« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2011, 06:24:53 PM »
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And afterwards, this lady come onto the scene to finish up <g>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiz42ffF3tY

Who knows, Kelby might be the Colon Lady to his followers.  Everybody needs a healthy colon.  I'm thinking he gives some people irritable bowel syndrome. Grin
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