Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: [1]   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Too much wine? Image seems fuzzy in C1 but when I zoom in to 100% is very sharp?  (Read 5086 times)
lowep
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 415


WWW
« on: April 30, 2011, 02:12:32 PM »
ReplyReply

I just opened some dng images from Sinar eMotion75 back in the trial version of C1 4.7. and got quite surprised as all the images seemed quite "fuzzy" - as if taken with a low res point and shoot camera (or as if I had just knocked off one too many glasses of wine).

Huh

However to my profound relief I found that when I zoomed in to 100% all details were as sharp as I had expected them to be (in fact so sharp I almost cut myself that is not a bad problem:-).

So my guess is that I need to somehow adjust the display preferences or some other setting but am not sure what to do to correct this.
Logged
Doug Peterson
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2786


WWW
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2011, 11:18:02 PM »
ReplyReply

I would update to 5.2.1 as this version was much faster, had fewer bugs, and has some additional features.

Moreover it's free to anyone who has a valid capture one 4 pro license (whereas buying Capture One 6 would cost you $99-10%).

I don't this specific bug you're talking about so I can't promise it was fixed between 4.7 and 5.2.1 but it's pretty likely and free to find out.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off
Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
Office: 877.367.8537
Cell: 740.707.2183
Phase One IQ250 FAQ
lowep
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 415


WWW
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2011, 04:38:04 AM »
ReplyReply

thanks for this suggestion that I will try
Logged
lowep
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 415


WWW
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2011, 11:01:28 AM »
ReplyReply

Upgraded to C1 5.2.1 trial version but when I zoom up from standard fit to zoom 100% the viewing effect is still the same as I described in my first post. To my unexpert eye it looks like a big dose of sharpening is added when I zoom from standard fit to 100%. This is only a viewing issue, as TIFF exports of the files to Photoshop are more or less as sharp as the 100% zooms.

Could it be because I am working with Sinar dng files from eMotion75 that as far as I know are are not supported (at least as ICC profile options) by this particular version of Capture One? Instead I am using the default ICC profile that is DNG file neutral. Does the ICC profile have anything to do with the apparent sharpness/resolution of the image displayed in C1's viewer??

Quite weird - though most likely my problem is due as usual to operater error or misperception.

Is it possible for me to control the resolution or amount of sharpening (if any) applied to the image in the viewfinder window?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 11:13:55 AM by lowep » Logged
Doug Peterson
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2786


WWW
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2011, 12:18:11 PM »
ReplyReply

Perhaps you could process one of the images and then view that TIFF in Capture One to see if the effect you are seeing is the standard C1 viewing of zoom-to-fit or a problem specific to your DNG files (viewing a TIFF is the same regardless of whether it came from a DNG or any other file).

Also, the user cannot control the way C1 handles trying to show an image at non 100% settings such as zoom-to-fit. Nor to my knowledge can this be user-controlled in any of the major raw suites - though I'm very open to being wrong on this and would be interested in hearing about any program which does.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off
Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
Office: 877.367.8537
Cell: 740.707.2183
Phase One IQ250 FAQ
lowep
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 415


WWW
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2011, 04:24:10 PM »
ReplyReply

Thanks for the good suggestion Doug.

I exported 2 variants of a DNG file from CO1 4.5.2 as TIF files: variant i TIF export with no amount of sharpening and variant ii TIF export with default sharpening.

After reimporting the two TIF files into CO1, I compared them in the viewer at standard zoom with the original DNG file. To me the original DNG image looked slightly "fuzzier" than the variant i TIF export (with no sharpening) and clearly "fuzzier" than the variant ii TIF export (with default sharpening).

When I zoomed the CO1 viewer to 100 percent this changed. The DNG file with default sharpening looked identical to the the variant ii TIFF file (with default sharpening) and much sharper than the variant i TIF file (with no sharpening).

I checked CO1's default sharpening setting for the DNG file that much to my surprise was 180!?!

To be double sure of this I dialed in a custom sharpening amount then hit the curved arrow to return to default - the sharpening amount immediately sprang back to 180.

So that explains the obvious difference in 100% zoom between the default DNG and the exported variant i TIF file (with no sharpening) - but still leaves the question of what is causing the "fuzziness" of the default .dng image when it is viewed at standard fit size. Could this have something to do with the amount of default sharpening that is applied by CO1 - but if that were the case would you not expect the default DNG image (sharpening amount 180) to look much sharper at standard fit size than the reimported variant i TIF file that was exported with no sharpening?

 Huh
Logged
Doug Peterson
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2786


WWW
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2011, 06:58:55 PM »
ReplyReply

So my next natural question is of course whether the disparity also exists in version 6.2 (the most current version) which you could try for free but which would be a paid upgrade (select "Try Capture One Pro" when running it).

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off
Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
Office: 877.367.8537
Cell: 740.707.2183
Phase One IQ250 FAQ
lowep
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 415


WWW
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2011, 05:41:47 AM »
ReplyReply

Will try 6.2 trial as you suggest when I get time to download and install it. Not sure why you suggest this, as I cannot find any information that suggests this upgrade has anything to do with debugging the viewfinder or adding eMotion75 files ICC files that I guess is not likely to happen as this is a legacy MFDB.

Last night I checked out same with some old Mamiya ZD .mef (mamiya raw) files I had on my hard drive. Did not see the same problem.

Amount of default sharpness automatically applied by CO1 5.2.2 to the Mamiya ZD raw files was 160 - 20 less than the default sharpening applied to the eMotion75 files. Not sure why though guess probably because smaller files require less sharpening to look pretty.

At least it is good that now I know this sharpening is being done to my files and can check and reduce it as required.

My next natural question is why does CaptureOne add differing doses of default sharpening for different ICC profiles and how does this effect the appearance of the image in the viewfinder?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 07:35:40 AM by lowep » Logged
craigwashburn
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 118


« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2011, 11:16:11 AM »
ReplyReply

Are you sure this isn't a preview issue?  If your preview size is set too large for your monitor in preferences, C1 scales it down to fit the monitor, which results in a soft appearance if it's a large change.  I complained about this to PhaseOne long ago... the default preview size assumes a certain monitor size that may not apply to all.




Logged
purpleblues
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20


« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2011, 06:32:16 PM »
ReplyReply

Try setting your NR to 0 and watch what's happening. Apparently C1's NR works on the displayed pixels, not the real ones unless you process your image. Therefore only 100% view gives you the real look.
Logged
Doug Peterson
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2786


WWW
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2011, 09:49:07 AM »
ReplyReply

My next natural question is why does CaptureOne add differing doses of default sharpening for different ICC profiles

Processing is catered to each raw format that Capture One supports. The amount of human-time that goes into tweaking the algorithms, ICC profile, variables, and defaults of each camera is one of the advantages of Capture One. e.g. Many of our customers find that the profile for the 5DII, coupled with the color/processing engine of C1 is better than the results in LightRoom AFTER they've done the color-checker passport (and far better than the generic 5DII LightRoom profile).

Files that are supported by virtue of being in the DNG format, but which are not specifically catered to will process, and will probably look pretty good, but have not received any special attention/catering.

This is one of my (several) complaints about DNGs. They fool most users into thinking that "compatibility" for raw processing is binary - either raws from Camera X open in Program Y or it doesn't - whereas in reality it's very important (for those who care about processing and smooth workflows) that someone actually sat down with a variety of raw file tests from that camera and adjusted the excellent-but-generic algorithms to get the most out of that file.

It's like the difference between randomly selecting a suit based on a size-range or having a suit tailored to you. Yes they will both fit, but...

Unfortunately since you have a Sinar back your options for raw processors which are catered to your digital back specifically are somewhat... limited. I suppose that's why you're trying to make it work in Capture One and hopefully through phaseone.com you'll be able to work this out. Let us know how it turns out.

How does this effect the appearance of the image in the viewfinder?

The difference in sharpening as shown at zoom-to-fit sounds more like a bug or a limitation caused by DNG to me. Don't know for sure as we don't sell/support Sinar backs. Have you started a support case? Have you tried the most recent version (6.1.1 or 6.2)? The forum is not going to be able to help you much more - especially since you haven't posted any screen grabs to show a quantification of the difference. I think your best bet is the support system at phaseone.com.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off
« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 09:53:10 AM by dougpetersonci » Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
Office: 877.367.8537
Cell: 740.707.2183
Phase One IQ250 FAQ
Doug Peterson
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2786


WWW
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2011, 09:56:06 AM »
ReplyReply

Are you sure this isn't a preview issue?  If your preview size is set too large for your monitor in preferences, C1 scales it down to fit the monitor, which results in a soft appearance if it's a large change.  I complained about this to PhaseOne long ago... the default preview size assumes a certain monitor size that may not apply to all.

Craig, you can set the proxy size in the preferences now based on input from users such as yourself. This allows C1 to accomodate very large monitor sizes while still providing excellent preview quality (while not burdening those working off of smaller laptops).

His issue is not the preview in general it's that the preview when viewing his Sinar DB DNG files (which are supported by virtue of being DNGs) is different/less-to-his-satisfaction then when viewing e.g. Mamiya ZD files (which have native/direct support). So while your comment is spot on about large monitors it does not seem to apply here.

Of course we haven't seen a screen grab and there's only so much you can gauge from words about sharpness.
Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
Office: 877.367.8537
Cell: 740.707.2183
Phase One IQ250 FAQ
lowep
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 415


WWW
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2011, 02:54:11 PM »
ReplyReply

"Unfortunately since you have a Sinar back your options for raw processors which are catered to your digital back specifically are somewhat... limited. I suppose that's why you're trying to make it work in Capture One"

Doug, once again you have hit the nail on the head!

My main computer is a PC desktop but until now Sinar's Captureshop program only runs on a Mac, so I have to download my files from my MFDB on my old macbook then copy the DNGs across to the PC before I start working on them in Photoshop (which I still find to be far more flexible for adjusting images than either CO or Captureshop). The main reason I use CO instead of Captureshop is just because I prefer to study all my dng files carefully in CO on my desktop PC monitor rather than in Captureshop on my macbook LCD before selecting which files to export and continue to work on in Photoshop. Perhaps other Sinar users are also using CO for this reason and will go back to Captureshop if/when it becomes available on the PC platform.

BTW I was surprised to find that CO1 "seems" to do a "more pleasing" job of converting Sinar dng files to 16-bit TIFs than Captureshop or for that matter Adobe's dng converter. To my eye the Captureshop dng conversions seem to be darker and have less dynamic range than the CO1 conversions though this is just a first impression and not based on any in-depth comparative tests that until now I have not had time to do. At least for now I can see no compelling reason in terms of difference in TIF export files to try and export from Captureshop on the Macbook instead of continuing with my current workflow.

Of course this could be solved by junking my perfectly good PC and investing in a faster Mac but am not a big spender and find there are plenty of other holes in my digital work chain to plug with money before doing this, so continue to limp along with this admittedly rather absurd attempt to process Sinar dng files in C01.   

I thought it was better to start asking here than at the phaseone website, since as you point out phaseone does not (yet) support my particular flavor of MFDB.

I appreciate the responses you and others have made to my post that have been most helpful in overcoming my ignorance.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 04:28:09 AM by lowep » Logged
craigwashburn
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 118


« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2011, 08:34:51 PM »
ReplyReply

Craig, you can set the proxy size in the preferences now based on input from users such as yourself. This allows C1 to accomodate very large monitor sizes while still providing excellent preview quality (while not burdening those working off of smaller laptops).

His issue is not the preview in general it's that the preview when viewing his Sinar DB DNG files (which are supported by virtue of being DNGs) is different/less-to-his-satisfaction then when viewing e.g. Mamiya ZD files (which have native/direct support). So while your comment is spot on about large monitors it does not seem to apply here.

Of course we haven't seen a screen grab and there's only so much you can gauge from words about sharpness.


Yes, I just wish that C1 was smarter about it.   It should be able to tell if it's going to downscale the preview too much, and then simply regenerate a different size preview and adjust the preference, or at least ask.  When 5 first came out (when this issue appeared), I went back and forth with phaseone before finally figuring it out for myself that the problem was the preview size in preferences.   I bet there are a lot of people who think C1 is broken because their previews are soft on initial program installation.
Logged
lowep
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 415


WWW
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2011, 06:10:50 AM »
ReplyReply

Thanks for the good suggestion Craig. Image Preference: eureka, this is the answer, I thought, until I found and adjusted the image slider in preferences that made no noticeable difference whatsoever to the appearance of the preview image even when I blew it up to 400% (and even though it is sunday morning and I have just drank a strong cup of coffee). Perhaps I am not adjusting it correctly, even though I tried to switch images and also to close and open the program after adjusting the image preference all the way up to max pixels and all the way down to minimum pixels.

For the sake of comic relief I will now attempt to post screen shots of the preview image at fit screen size and 100 percent. As you can see both images are crops with the 100 crop taken from a bigger amount of space on the screen. Unfortunately the screen shots are low res so it may be harder to see the fuzziness I am talking about in the fit screen image and the amount of detail in the 100% image than if you were looking at my computer monitor that is a Dell CRT. Would be good to know if you take a screen shot of the fit screen size of the preview image does it look the same?


« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 09:18:48 AM by lowep » Logged
craigwashburn
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 118


« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2011, 03:54:57 PM »
ReplyReply

Thanks for the good suggestion Craig. Image Preference: eureka, this is the answer, I thought, until I found and adjusted the image slider in preferences that made no noticeable difference whatsoever to the appearance of the preview image even when I blew it up to 400% (and even though it is sunday morning and I have just drank a strong cup of coffee). Perhaps I am not adjusting it correctly, even though I tried to switch images and also to close and open the program after adjusting the image preference all the way up to max pixels and all the way down to minimum pixels.

For the sake of comic relief I will now attempt to post screen shots of the preview image at fit screen size and 100 percent. As you can see both images are crops with the 100 crop taken from a bigger amount of space on the screen. Unfortunately the screen shots are low res so it may be harder to see the fuzziness I am talking about in the fit screen image and the amount of detail in the 100% image than if you were looking at my computer monitor that is a Dell CRT. Would be good to know if you take a screen shot of the fit screen size of the preview image does it look the same?




Try this:  Set the preview size to the minimum (I'm guessing your CRT is a 19" or some such?).  Close C1 and delete the Previews folder for the session you're working with.  Restart C1 and wait for it to regenerate previews.

If a preview size is too small for the monitor, the worst that happens is that it simply processes the 100% image and shows that scaled down.  It slows things down, but for some reason, this is of a higher quality than C1 rescaling a too-large preview.

You might have another issue though, since it seems your Sinar back is only kind of supported. 
Logged
lowep
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 415


WWW
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2011, 03:27:11 PM »
ReplyReply

Thanks Craig,

After trying this suggestion I am still looking for a solution - though fortunately this is no big disaster as I almost always preview my images at 100% zoom that works fine.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad