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Author Topic: Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique? (or other OBA-free baryta paper?)  (Read 4922 times)
AFairley
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« on: May 12, 2011, 11:52:15 AM »
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I was shocked to see how much the whites on prints on Epson Exhibition Fiber dull when they are behind Museum Glass, so I'm thinking of trying a non-OBA baryta paper.  Any comments on Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique?  (I read that it does not have OBAs, but the manufacturer spec sheet does not say this.  Is it in fact OBA-free?)  Any other recommendations in 17x22 cut sheets?  I do like the cool tone of Exhibition Fiber (and for that reason opted to print on it rather than Ilford Fiber Silk when I was debating between those two), I essentially would be looking for a non-OBA replacement for the Exhibition Fiber look (to the extent that's possible).

Thanks!
« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 12:33:06 PM by AFairley » Logged

Mark D Segal
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« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2011, 12:19:15 PM »
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Canson Baryta Photographique and Ilford Gold Fibre Silk are very similar papers and both are superb. Exhibition Fiber has a comparatively colder tone. You can do a search on this website for reviews of these papers.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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NashvilleMike
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« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2011, 12:29:09 PM »
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Disclaimer: I love Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique; it's my primary paper for B&W imagery and for this purpose, I use it instead of Epson EF.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, I'm not sure it's the paper for *you*. It has excellent, rich, deep blacks, and seems to have a great sense of making images come alive in the upper shadows and lower midtones , but it's whites are not as "white" as those of EEF. EEF is a very, very "bright" paper, and if you're looking for something with very bright whites that tend towards the cool side, the Canson may not be your ticket as it's whites are just slightly to the warm side of neutral, and while still pretty bright, nowhere as piercing as those of EEF. I don't really know if I have any alternate suggestions for you though. It might be worth trying a small pack of the Canson just to see what you feel about it though - it is a very nice paper, but like all papers, it has a personality.

As for OBA, I may be misunderstood, but I thought the Canson paper does contain minor traces of OBA. You might have to go to something like their Platine Fiber Rag paper to find a brighter white paper in their lineup that is totally OBA free.

I personally don't have any problems with EEF in museum glass from my framing shop, but I don't know what type she uses - I've framed several 16x20 color prints on this paper and a few B&W, so I can't say I've experienced what you have.

Good luck and it will be interesting to see what other people suggest for you...

-m

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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2011, 01:55:31 PM »
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As for OBA, I may be misunderstood, but I thought the Canson paper does contain minor traces of OBA. You might have to go to something like their Platine Fiber Rag paper to find a brighter white paper in their lineup that is totally OBA free.

I personally don't have any problems with EEF in museum glass from my framing shop, but I don't know what type she uses - I've framed several 16x20 color prints on this paper and a few B&W, so I can't say I've experienced what you have.

Good luck and it will be interesting to see what other people suggest for you...

-m


Correct both the Canson Rag Baryta Photogaphique and Ilford Gold Fiber Silk contain small amounts of OBAs.  You can always find out which papers have them and print permanency results at the Aardenberg site (and please make a small contribution when you visit to keep the research going).  I've printed on both papers and quite frankly it is hard to tell the difference between the two of them.  The Plantine Rag is OBA free.  Regarding the poor whites with EEF when framed, this can occur when UV protectant glazing is used as the the bright white of this paper is a result of a heavy dosing of OBAs.  If you visit Ernst Dinkla's fine website you can see the spectral data for almost all the papers that LuLa users print on.  Using Ernst's tool you can compare the two Canson papers with IGFS.  You see relatively flat spectral responses from 440 - 600 nm for the Canson Baryta Photographiqe and the IGFS.  This is from the OBA since it boosts the reflectance in the lower wavelength areas compared to the Rag paper which has no OBAs.  Key to understanding any of the papers is to really look at the long term permanency data and see what the fading results are. 
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howardm
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« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2011, 02:05:20 PM »
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heads up that shadesofpaper is currently (until the 15th) running 10% off on Canson papers and you can also get a $10 off (>$100 purchase) rebate so the savings could be significant.
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JeffKohn
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« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2011, 02:18:48 PM »
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For OBA-free alternatives consider Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta or Canson Platine Fibre Rag. But I agree with the other poster that if you're expecting the same cool/bright look of EEF you're likely to be disappointed, you're just not going to get that without substantial OBA's.
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AFairley
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« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2011, 02:36:22 PM »
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Thanks all, for the information.  To clarify, I am not expecting to get the same bright look from a non-OBA paper as EEF -- that's the result of the brighteners that disappears anyway when it's behind the TruVue Museum Glass (so I don't really expect to see a difference in that regard on framed prints).  But I would like to retain the cool look. 
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JeffKohn
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« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2011, 02:51:27 PM »
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Thanks all, for the information.  To clarify, I am not expecting to get the same bright look from a non-OBA paper as EEF -- that's the result of the brighteners that disappears anyway when it's behind the TruVue Museum Glass (so I don't really expect to see a difference in that regard on framed prints).  But I would like to retain the cool look. 
I've never seen a "cool" paper that didn't have OBA's in it. If you really want that, maybe consider the non-UV version of Museum Glass (I think it's called TruVue Anti-Reflection).
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MHMG
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« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2011, 06:28:56 PM »
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I've never seen a "cool" paper that didn't have OBA's in it. If you really want that, maybe consider the non-UV version of Museum Glass (I think it's called TruVue Anti-Reflection).

Ditto.. this other Tru Vue product with anti-reflection (AR) coating (not to be confused with "reflection control" products that use an etched surface to scatter light) is not a full UV-cut barrier. However, this glass and its "Optium Acrylic" counterpart (i.e., AR coating on standard acrylic versus Optium Museum Arylic which has an AR coating on OP3 full-UV cut acrylic) are the "sleepers" in the True Vue product lineup. They are somewhat less expensive than their Museum glass and acrylic counterparts, but they get little attention because most framers try to upsell the AR coatings on full UV-cut glazing material, ie. the so called "museum" quality glazing. Nevertheless, these variants of AR coated glazings are very important to modern digital media because they cut more UV than standard glass and even somewhat more than standard acrylic, but are still not full UV blockers. Hence, a high OBA content paper like EEF won't take quite as much of an "instant yellowing" hit as it does with Tru Vue Museum glass or Optium Museum acrylic. My advice would be to get some samples and compare paper color changes to standard acrylic which blocks more UV than ordinary glass, but not as as much as the "museum" stuff.  Think of these two other AR coated glazings as a decent compromise for UV cut versus UV transmission but with the attribute of lower front surface reflection and no loss of sharpness and contrast which is the common complaint with typical "reflection control" glazings. You will still see some decline in that ultra bright white appearance of EEF compared to framing under ordinary glass (which can impart a slight green tint) or "water white" glass (which is free of the impurities in the glass that cause the green tint). However, it won't be quite as much paper color change as the Museum glass which the OP tried.

I don't think even Tru Vue fully understands this "sweet spot" in its product lineup because the use of ultra high OBAs is a fairly recent development in photographic papers. Framers that recommend museum glazings are often unaware of an OBA containing paper's need for some UV in the illumination to achieve it's fluorescence benefit.  Moreover, traditional darkroom photographic papers with OBAs never got so "ultra blue-white" as we are seeing recently in the inkjet paper market, so for both reasons, these intermediate AR coated products don't get their just due attention in the picture framing community.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 06:33:44 PM by MHMG » Logged
AFairley
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« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2011, 07:31:09 PM »
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Mark, thank you very much, the Anti-Reflection or Optium may be the solution I am looking for, I will investigate.
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JohnBrew
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« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2011, 08:26:00 PM »
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For OBA-free alternatives consider Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta or Canson Platine Fibre Rag. But I agree with the other poster that if you're expecting the same cool/bright look of EEF you're likely to be disappointed, you're just not going to get that without substantial OBA's.
Unfortunately Hahnemuhle PhotoRag Baryta DOES contain OBA's. According to the Hahn spec sheet it has "moderate" amount of OBA's. While I'm still printing with it until I run out (and I love the paper!) the size's I've run out of I'm replacing with Hahn PhotoRag Pearl.
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JeffKohn
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« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2011, 09:07:25 PM »
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Unfortunately Hahnemuhle PhotoRag Baryta DOES contain OBA's. According to the Hahn spec sheet it has "moderate" amount of OBA's. While I'm still printing with it until I run out (and I love the paper!) the size's I've run out of I'm replacing with Hahn PhotoRag Pearl.
The matte version of Photo Rag does have some OBA's, but not Photo Rag Baryta. See data sheet here. I've also measured its paper white with regular and UV-cut spectros.

Maybe you're thinking of Fine Art Baryta? Not the same thing...
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MHMG
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« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2011, 01:43:51 AM »
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The matte version of Photo Rag does have some OBA's, but not Photo Rag Baryta. See data sheet here. I've also measured its paper white with regular and UV-cut spectros.

Maybe you're thinking of Fine Art Baryta? Not the same thing...

Exactly right, The HN fine art baryta and the HN Fine art Pearl both contain moderately high levels of OBAs and the paper base is alpha cellulose (nevertheless a very High quality paper core) while the HN Photo Rag Baryta and the Photo Rag Pearl have no OBA and the paper base is cotton.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2011, 09:07:01 AM »
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Exactly right, The HN fine art baryta and the HN Fine art Pearl both contain moderately high levels of OBAs and the paper base is alpha cellulose (nevertheless a very High quality paper core) while the HN Photo Rag Baryta and the Photo Rag Pearl have no OBA and the paper base is cotton.

Uhuh, and here in Toronto the HN Photorag Baryta is just about exactly twice the price of Ilford Gold Fibre Silk. I wonder if it's worth the difference to someone who doesn't care whether the backing is smooth or fuzzy, or if there are small amounts of OBA mixed into the base.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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narikin
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« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2011, 11:30:21 AM »
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IGFS = Canson Baryta Photographique. Same Paper. so cross check prices on that.
in any case, I'd agree it isn't worth the ridiculous Hahnemuhle premium.
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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2011, 11:40:34 AM »
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Just to clarify from the chemist in me, cellulose is cellulose, whether it comes from trees or cotton fibers.  A good paper can come from both sources and just because you are paying twice as much for "rag" paper as opposed to alpha-cellulose paper doesn't make it any better.  There may be other reasons to pick one over the other and it's clear that most rag papers have a different tactile feeling than alpha-cellulose but behind glass (e.g., framed) the tactile sensation is worthless.  Pick a paper that does your image justice and that you (and potential customers) like.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2011, 11:50:09 AM »
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IGFS = Canson Baryta Photographique. Same Paper. so cross check prices on that.
in any case, I'd agree it isn't worth the ridiculous Hahnemuhle premium.

No it is not the same paper, but it is VERY close. Canson is manufactured in France and Ilford GFS, though Swiss, is manufactured in Germany. Gamut size, tint and finish are very close but not truly identical. For all intents and purposes I would agree with you so far as to say they are interchangeable.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2011, 11:51:32 AM »
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Just to clarify from the chemist in me, cellulose is cellulose, whether it comes from trees or cotton fibers.  A good paper can come from both sources and just because you are paying twice as much for "rag" paper as opposed to alpha-cellulose paper doesn't make it any better.  There may be other reasons to pick one over the other and it's clear that most rag papers have a different tactile feeling than alpha-cellulose but behind glass (e.g., framed) the tactile sensation is worthless.  Pick a paper that does your image justice and that you (and potential customers) like.

Yes, this is all perfectly sensible. My question relates more to the printed side of the paper, which is all I really care about for the reasons you stated.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
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