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Author Topic: How do people deal with canvas "shrinkage"?  (Read 5378 times)
neile
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« on: May 16, 2011, 12:25:26 AM »
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I swear I've seen a post on this before here, but I couldn't find it.

I just finished gallery wrapping an 18x40" print. When all was said and done my gallery wrap mirrored edge was 1/2" off on the long dimension (the canvas feed direction). This was on Lexjet Select Sunset Matte canvas on an 8300 using their supplied media type.

I've been off a bit in the past using BC Lyve canvas, but never this much.

So... how do folks deal with this? Is this a settings issue in the media type where it isn't feeding it quite enough on each pass? Is this natural shrinkage with this canvas that I have to somehow compensate for in image creation?

Thanks (and thanks in advance to Dan for his reply Smiley)

Neil
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2011, 02:44:35 AM »
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One percent shrink is not that uncommon. If you did not have that problem before it could be that you used another media preset than usual. Modern OEM drivers use OEM canvas media presets that have the compensation build in for the media used. I would expect the Canon iPF8300 to have that embedded compensation for Canon canvas media.
Either that or things like different media tension at the start/end of canvas rolls, humidity in storing and production or printer media transport issues. I know an iPF9000 user who has to increase the pressure of the pinch rollers on every media right now to control transport. Conclusion is that the 4 years of intensive use weared out the nylon? bushes that support the transport axle so it dropped to the extent that the media actually has to drop too to get in touch with the axle which asks too much of the pinch rollers clamping force. I doubt that your 8300 got that use already.

One way to deal with it is printing with even more length compensation than the stretcher bars nominal size is. Using the stretcher bar wedges to compensate for the remaining size difference. Blunter corners are the price to pay if it is overdone but it is easier than using the radial saw to create custom stretcher lengths.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop

http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html


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na goodman
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« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2011, 08:04:28 AM »
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Neil as you found out the canvas always only shrinks in the running length. On an Epson 9800 I lose
approx. 1/2" every 36". This is using the same canvas you are using. Then coating with Glamour II on that canvas I lose another 1/8". I now just take that measurement into consideration when printing the image. I do mirror the edges so I know how exacting it has to be. Hope that helps.
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Dward
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« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2011, 08:59:49 AM »
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Nearly all of my shrinkage with a z3100 occurs with coating, not with printing.  A 40" print might be a 32nd or at most a 16th short after printing, but often shrinks 3/16" or more with coating.  I use ClearShield Type C mostly.   I order custom length stretchers only after I see the final length, because the exact amount of shrinkage seems to vary with humidity.  I can't predict accurately enough in advance.   

I haven't printed canvas on the 8300 yet, so I'll watch out for shrinkage at the printing stage as well as the coating stage. 

Though I haven't done any systematic study, some canvasses seem more prone to significant shrinkage than others.  The Sihl 3948 Instant dry seems the most prone, in my experience, and the InkAid 901 the least prone.

David V. Ward, Ph. D.
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David V. Ward Fine Art Photography
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mikev1
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« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2011, 09:28:56 AM »
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What I did was make a 2' test print of each type of canvas that I use and measured them.  I made a spreadsheet that adjusts for the error.  The error is usually under 1%.  I just type in the number of pixels of the running length and it spits out the adjusted number.  I resize and then usually crop of the width of the canvas as that always comes out perfect to begin with.  No one has ever minded the few pixels that go missing off the edge.
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neile
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« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2011, 09:47:00 AM »
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If you did not have that problem before it could be that you used another media preset than usual.

Yes, I definitely did. As mentioned this is a new kind of canvas for me, and I'm using Lexjet's custom created media type for this canvas on the ipf8300. That's why I was so surprised it was so off! I expected using their media type it would be a lot closer.

I never thought about the spray coating having an effect, as others have mentioned. Next job I have I'll have to measure the image after it comes off the printer, and then again after spraying.

Neil
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John Nollendorfs
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« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2011, 10:10:31 AM »
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Could be the custom profile did not take into account the shrinkage. Epson printers have been very notorious in coming out short on canvas  prints. My Z3100 has been nearly spot on though. However I do allow an extra 1/4" in each direction so the edges wrap completely around. Also, instead of "mirrored" edges, I use intelligent fill most of the time, and touch up as necessary. This tends to give a smooth transition, so if things are off a bit, it's not noticeable.

And yes, water based sprays do result in some shrinkage, which is why I try and stretch within a couple of hours of spraying my canvas'. Also, this gives a nice tight result, that has yet to return for re-stretching. Others who have stretched my coated canvas' days or weeks later, have not been so lucky!

John Nollendorfs

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kdphotography
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« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2011, 10:13:46 AM »
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I think that "shrinkage" will vary with the type of canvas chosen as well as the printer being used to print the canvas itself.  I've found that any shrinkage tends to run length-wise, and not across the width of the canvas (or width of the printer roll)---somwhat like when a new pair of jeans shrink in the dryer, it's just along the length.  I use BC's Lyve canvas and Glamour II (hvlp) on an Epson 9800.  I don't see any shrinkage after printing, only after coating.  It makes sense since the coating is water-based, and water with cotton equals shrinkage.  I call it the George Costanza ("I was in the pool!") effect.   Grin  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DoARSlv-HU

This is what works for me.  After preparing the canvas for printing, determine which dimension (side) will be printed lengthwise on the printer.  Go to image size in PS.  Uncheck constrain proportions.  On dimensions, select "percentage."  On the length only, expand that dimension to 101.25%.  Click ok and print as usual.  Again, I don't see shrinkage after printing, but it is apparent after coating the canvas.  This method of expanding only the length of the canvas by 1.25% works for me using Lyve and an Epson 9800, and is pretty darn close.  Other printers/media will probably vary, but determining a similar formula should work.

ken
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neile
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« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2011, 10:24:53 AM »
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each direction so the edges wrap completely around. Also, instead of "mirrored" edges, I use intelligent fill most of the time, and touch up as necessary. This tends to give a smooth transition, so if things are off a bit, it's not noticeable.

John, are you referring to the content aware fill feature in PS5?

Neil
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neile
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« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2011, 10:25:26 AM »
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This is what works for me.  After preparing the canvas for printing, determine which dimension (side) will be printed lengthwise on the printer.  Go to image size in PS.  Uncheck constrain proportions.  On dimensions, select "percentage."  On the length only, expand that dimension to 101.25%.

Thanks Ken, great practical suggestion on how to easily do the resize!

Neil
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fetish
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« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2011, 11:09:30 AM »
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This is what works for me.  After preparing the canvas for printing, determine which dimension (side) will be printed lengthwise on the printer.  Go to image size in PS.  Uncheck constrain proportions.  On dimensions, select "percentage."  On the length only, expand that dimension to 101.25%.  Click ok and print as usual.  Again, I don't see shrinkage after printing, but it is apparent after coating the canvas.  This method of expanding only the length of the canvas by 1.25% works for me using Lyve and an Epson 9800, and is pretty darn close.  Other printers/media will probably vary, but determining a similar formula should work.


Yup that's what I do too. I use 101.2% feedwise for lyve canvas on my 11880. For hahnemuehle goya canvas, 101.08% seems to be the key. It's not perfect but it's the best solution I've seen across multiple forums and discussions regarding this issue.
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Dan Berg
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« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2011, 11:34:46 AM »
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I have tried just about everything you folks have mentioned and then some. Two separate issues being talked about here. The driver not printing what you are asking for and the canvas actually shrinking after it has been printed and varnished.
Setting canvas in the driver and also as the media type has given me the best results with regards to selected print size matching final output printed size. (Epson 7900)
I understand not everyone makes their own stretchers but that is probably the easiest fix.
Print,varnish and measure your print to find exact stretcher bar sizes.
I no longer worry what comes out of the printer as long as it is close.
Another option if you can do it is just to expand the image without mirroring.
Now when you wrap and staple you have no alignment issues because you do not have a mirrored edge.
All you have to do is make sure you have enough printed canvas to roll around the back.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 11:44:46 AM by Dan Berg » Logged

Rob Reiter
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« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2011, 11:50:22 AM »
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It's the coating that shrinks my Chromata White canvas. I roll on Glamour II and get the same amount of shrinkage you mentioned, Neil. Measured before coating, the lengths appear accurate. I use the Canvas Matte media type on my 8300. I wonder how Lejet's custom media type differs from that.
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neile
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« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2011, 12:12:08 PM »
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I'm going to totally take this thread on a tangent now Smiley

I actually do think there's something funky with the Lexjet media type. Separate from the shrinkage issue, when I set the custom page size for the print job I set it to be one inch longer top and bottom so I had plenty of extra canvas beyond the printed area for stretching and stapling. For some reason I got 1/4" at each end. It happened twice, and I've never had the issue using BC Lyve with their recommended Canon driver settings.

I think an e-mail to LexJet is in order.

Neil
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neile
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« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2011, 12:15:23 PM »
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One more thing to add to this: I'm beginning to think shrinkage is the dirty little secret of canvas printing Smiley All the fancy pre-made stretcher bars are available in even length increments. For people doing low-volume work who don't want to invest in custom fabricating their own stretcher bars to length after the print is done you wind up with a very rude surprise the first time you do a big canvas! Nowhere do the companies selling stretcher bars (or canvas for that matter) warn you about this.

Neil
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Dan Berg
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« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2011, 12:28:09 PM »
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One more thing to add to this: I'm beginning to think shrinkage is the dirty little secret of canvas printing Smiley All the fancy pre-made stretcher bars are available in even length increments. For people doing low-volume work who don't want to invest in custom fabricating their own stretcher bars to length after the print is done you wind up with a very rude surprise the first time you do a big canvas! Nowhere do the companies selling stretcher bars (or canvas for that matter) warn you about this.

Neil

Yes Neil you are right. For anyone that is new to working with these canvas sizing issues, it can and will drive you crazy.
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Inanda Images
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« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2011, 01:14:29 PM »
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I have been dealing with this through a slightly different method. I adjust the feed rate on my 9880 and 7900 in the
printer driver and then save the setting. I have found that BC's 800M & Lyve each need a different setting. I am attempting to make the driver consistent so I am not having to change mine or the clients images. For the Lyve I find adjusting the feed rate to +47 works and on the 800M it was around 30. Once laminated and dried I find the images fit the frame quite well.

Mark Prins
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mikev1
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« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2011, 01:52:23 PM »
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One more thing to add to this: I'm beginning to think shrinkage is the dirty little secret of canvas printing Smiley All the fancy pre-made stretcher bars are available in even length increments. For people doing low-volume work who don't want to invest in custom fabricating their own stretcher bars to length after the print is done you wind up with a very rude surprise the first time you do a big canvas! Nowhere do the companies selling stretcher bars (or canvas for that matter) warn you about this.

Neil

The first thing I ask my customers is if they make their own stretcher bars or not.  Gallery wraps are the easiest to deal with as you have a bit of room to play with the placement most of the times.  If they want a black or mirrored border then the sizing becomes more critical when using stock frames.

I am even hesitant about shipping rolled canvas that has been sprayed.  Who knows what temperature/humidity changes the print will go through on the way to its destination and how long it will sit in the tube when it arrives.  As someone mentioned about it is best to stretch the canvas sooner rather than later after it has been sprayed.
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2011, 01:53:22 PM »
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It can hardly be called a dirty little secret, this issue has been discussed for at least ten years. At the end of my Canvas Wrap Actions there is a last step to give the print length direction a resampling for "shrink" compensation if the driver or RIP media preset isn't handling this already.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop

http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html
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mikev1
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« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2011, 02:02:16 PM »
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Well lets call it an unpleasant surprise then!


It can hardly be called a dirty little secret, this issue has been discussed for at least ten years. At the end of my Canvas Wrap Actions there is a last step to give the print length direction a resampling for "shrink" compensation if the driver or RIP media preset isn't handling this already.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop

http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html
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