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Author Topic: New i1Profiler EULA  (Read 5835 times)
keith_cooper
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« on: May 23, 2011, 06:36:32 PM »
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The new EULA has been released

This from the notification of the change:

“X-Rite did release a new EULA on April 6, 2011 containing some language that several of you voiced concerns over and have since provided us with valuable input. Based on these interactions we are pleased to provide you with a revised EULA, which is retroactively effective as of April 6, 2011.

It is not our intention to question or monitor your business practice. However, there are two types of profile distribution practices that will require a separate distribution agreement with X-Rite. The first point has been in place for many years, while the second point is a new addition. Taken from the EULA they are as follows:

(i) in conjunction with the sale or promotion of an input, display or output device and/or ink or paper if such sale or promotion extends beyond a single customer-specific application,

(ii) in conjunction with profiling services that are offered electronically or online, including through electronic media, email or other network-based communication channels, without significant billable services that involve personalized customer interaction.”

From http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/stuff/?p=1071
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digitaldog
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« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2011, 06:56:28 PM »
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The language is almost as goofy as the original:
Quote
You may provide Licensed Profiles to one or more third parties in connection with Your
profiling services provided Your profiling services involve personalized profile-related customer
consultations and are predominantly conducted on-site at a customer location

Predominantly conducted on-site? Predominantly?
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Andrew Rodney
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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2011, 07:15:12 PM »
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The language is almost as goofy as the original:
Predominantly conducted on-site? Predominantly?
My reading of the language is that you cannot run an Internet-based profiling service under this basic license since there is no "predominantly on site" interaction.  The exceptions are not for profit uses.
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JeffKohn
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« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2011, 09:13:35 PM »
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(ii) in conjunction with profiling services that are offered electronically or online, including through electronic media, email or other network-based communication channels, without significant billable services that involve personalized customer interaction."
So they don't want you running an online profiling business selling them at $50-100 a pop, but if you charge a few hundred an hour for "consulting", it's OK to include profiling as part of your business. Makes perfect sense to me  Roll Eyes  Do they really think that people are out there getting rich by selling profiles over the internet? I mean yeah, some people offer this service among others, but I would be surprised if there's anybody out there who makes even a modest living solely from selling profiles. This doesn't affect me personally, but just the principal of it makes me detest X-Rite as a company.

And it looks like they still kept the retroactive license change to previous versions, which is just ridiculous (and probably unenforceable, especially if you don't buy an upgrade of i1P but a full, standalone version).
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 09:19:07 PM by JeffKohn » Logged

pfigen
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« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2011, 12:01:51 AM »
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Hmmm. I have a copy of what X-Rite calls "Final EULA 051011" which was emailed to me by the X-Rite rep for Southern Ca. It would appear to be later than April 6, 2011, but might in fact be the same. I sent the rep my thoughts on the new license, which weren't very positive and haven't heard back from him. I can post the entire text here if you all want to read it. Most notably missing seems to be the part that supercedes previous licenses. At least I didn't see it there and I read it several times. The use of words like "predominately" amounts to very sloppy legal writing and feels to me like they heard the complaints but just couldn't quite bring themselves to just let people use the software the way they always have. There was also a link to an alternate licensing agreements - I guess for those who are not predominate - that led nowhere.
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JeffKohn
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« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2011, 01:28:39 AM »
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Quote
Most notably missing seems to be the part that supercedes previous licenses.
I was going by the comment on the Northlight Images page (link above), but after looking at the actual license agreement posted on the X-Rite site, I agree. The new EULA doesn't contain any statement about retroactive effect on previous versions of the software that I could discern.

The page containing the link the new EULA in PDF form does contain this text:

Quote
The link below is a revised EULA which was published and distributed on April 6, 2011.  The revised EULA is retroactively effective as of April 6, 2011.

But I think they're just saying that this newly revised EULA is retroactively effective from the release date for the i1Profiler product (but still just for that product). If they intended this new EULA to be apply to previous product versions, the EULA itself would have to say that, and it doesn't.
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Czornyj
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« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2011, 02:05:45 AM »
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So they don't want you running an online profiling business selling them at $50-100 a pop, but if you charge a few hundred an hour for "consulting", it's OK to include profiling as part of your business. Makes perfect sense to me  Roll Eyes  Do they really think that people are out there getting rich by selling profiles over the internet? I mean yeah, some people offer this service among others, but I would be surprised if there's anybody out there who makes even a modest living solely from selling profiles. This doesn't affect me personally, but just the principal of it makes me detest X-Rite as a company.

They simply want to get rid of online profiling services, so they could sell more profiling kits. Online profiling service is a PITA for xrite, as it stops people from buying the profiling toys.

Just take a look at i1profiler - it's definitely not aimed at professional color consultants nor other color geeks alike, it's an evolution of a ColorMunki...
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 02:10:59 AM by Czornyj » Logged

Marcin Kałuża
pfigen
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« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2011, 02:19:44 AM »
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"(ii) in conjunction with profiling services that are offered electronically or online, including through electronic media, email or other network-based communication channels, without significant billable services that involve personalized customer interaction"

This bit from the special eula page that is now active on the x-rite website might actually provide a means for those who offer online profiling services but always have some conversation either by phone or email about the process and expectations.

The eula that was linked at the top of this thread does appear to be the same one I've had for a couple of weeks.
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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2011, 06:24:09 AM »
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Since I have now mastered ArgyllCMS maybe I'll open a profiling service.  There is no restrictive EULA with Argyll! Cheesy
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Mark Paulson
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« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2011, 06:44:31 AM »
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Since I purchased Monaco with my Isis and was promised a free upgrade as part of that transaction and not provided the EULA at that time to decide if I wanted to proceed or not and if I do not accept the current EULA, maybe I should try to get my money back. Sounds like a possible class action law suit to me.
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rasworth
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« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2011, 08:57:09 AM »
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I'm no lawyer, but it appears to me that (ii) allows online profiling for pay.  It's hard to read, sort of a double negative, but if I interpret it correctly it states that a separate agreement is needed if the online activity is "without significant billable services that involve personalized customer interaction.”

So as long as one receives compensation, and works directly/personally (?) with the customer, this exception doesn't apply and no additional agreement is required.

Added by edit - my interpretation of this phrase is XRite is trying to prevent somebody creating a profile, and then sending it for free to several buddies.

Lawyers?

Richard Southworth




« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 09:00:47 AM by rasworth » Logged
Scott Martin
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« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2011, 09:50:45 AM »
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Just take a look at i1profiler - it's definitely not aimed at professional color consultants nor other color geeks alike, it's an evolution of a ColorMunki...

I'll agree to disagree with you here. It's not the munki package and the quality of the results are outstanding.
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shewhorn
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« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2011, 10:08:06 AM »
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I'll agree to disagree with you here. It's not the munki package and the quality of the results are outstanding.

I have to agree. Arguments with regards to the GUI aside, the end results are better than anything else I've tried and a definite improvement on Monaco Profiler. I've been revisiting Argyll lately but so far I've not been able to come close to the quality of the profiles that I get out of i1Profiler.

Cheers, Joe
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2011, 10:17:39 AM »
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I'm no lawyer, but it appears to me that (ii) allows online profiling for pay.

It doesn't support internet based remote profiling services. You can't just have people send in targets and bill them for the profiles going out to them without other services (like training).

It does support remote profiling when it's *combined* with billable training. That training can be provided onsite, over the phone, etc.

I'm actually in favor of this approach. Having been in the calibration business since 1994, remote profiling is a pain in the ass, and does a great disservice to everyone involved, except when trained end-users are the ones getting the profiles. People need that training in addition to the profiles. If you don't give them that training bad things happen.

Most people think all they need is a printer profile when they actually need much more (better display calibration, better lighting, better understanding of color management policies, etc). Cheap online remote profiling services without any training usually leads to disappointing results because of weaknesses elsewhere in the workflow and creates a support burden on the provider. It also cheapens the value of high quality training - training that looks at the bigger picture of someone's workflow and carefully integrates not just good output profiles, but excellent display calibration, lighting suggestions, color management policy understanding, etc. That's what people really need - a bigger picture understanding about how all of the components work together.

I've operated a remote profiling service for over a decade now. It's a private service that's only available to my clients that have received onsite training. It allows for these knowledgeable professionals to maintain excellent profiles for their devices over time. It's affordable and I'm very clear about telling them that it doesn't include any support. Remote profiling works really well with these clients that I've visited and spent time with. I've anticipated the questions they're going to ask and taught them advanced critical thinking color skills so that they understand all the complex aspects of their workflow and can address problems on their own.

Time and time again people have contacted me saying "I'm a pro and know what I'm doing - I just need a profile from you." When I have made exceptions to my rule about only working with existing clients, I've been flooded with support emails from these people. "Prints from your profile don't look like my monitor" because they aren't calibrating their displays correctly or using good lighting, "Prints from your profile look too good, can you desaturate your profiles?" because they're used to over-saturating their files to compensate for their previously poorly color managed printing process, etc. Or worse yet, they continue to get poor results and don't bother to tell the remote profiling service provider at all. You get the idea. People need training in addition to the profiles. If you don't give them that training bad things happen. That's my opinion - my $0.02!
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rasworth
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« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2011, 11:21:37 AM »
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Scott,

Let's get off of the soap box, and stick to the point at hand.  If one charges $50-100 for a profile, involving initial contact with the client, sending the target via email, receiving printed target, scanning by whatever method, sending back the profile via email, and providing instructions as where to load in a pc or mac, rendering intent preference, etc., then the least of the process is actually cranking out the profile via i1P or whatever.

"Significant billable services" has to be measured against the charged fee.  Again, I see nothing in the wording that precludes doing as I stated.  From where do you receive information to generate your absolute statements to the contrary?

Richard Southworth
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2011, 11:28:13 AM »
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If one charges $50-100 for a profile, involving initial contact with the client, sending the target via email, receiving printed target, scanning by whatever method, sending back the profile via email, and providing instructions as where to load in a pc or mac, rendering intent preference, etc., then the least of the process is actually cranking out the profile via i1P or whatever.

I'm trying to help set the record straight that what you've described above requires a separate agreement with XRite.

"Significant billable services" has to be measured against the charged fee. 

If you had an invoice that includes other services, like training, that is admissible.

From where do you receive information to generate your absolute statements to the contrary?

From direct discussion with those that have written the EULA.

Just trying to help! This legal stuff really is hard to read so it's nice to know exactly what a companies intentions are.
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COULEUR-ICC
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« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2011, 11:29:57 AM »
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Good evening
Excuse my English, I'm French. OnSight, I do not agree
with your conclusion, I myself am a trainer in management
colors and repro long in France. In addition, I am one of the beta testers
who worked on the software and the latest solutions for XRITE.
I produces ICC profiles for remote clients. Do not assume that all users profiles icc know nothing about color management. Often a PDF file to accompany any good amply sufficient, all clients of this service are not ignorant.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 11:35:37 AM by COULEUR-ICC » Logged

Scott Martin
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« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2011, 11:40:55 AM »
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I'm certainly not saying anyone is ignorant and I also include incredibly detailed PDFs with the training and profiles that I generate. I work with some amazingly proficient professionals around the world and find that even the best can benefit from some dialog and training about the finer aspects of this complex topic (color management).

What I am saying/recognizing (with lots of experience here) is that there are inherent challenges with public remote profiling services.
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Mark Paulson
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« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2011, 11:48:22 AM »
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It doesn't support internet based remote profiling services. You can't just have people send in targets and bill them for the profiles going out to them without other services (like training).

While I don't have a dog in this hunt and I agree pretty much with what Scott said, I still don't like the fact that the EULA was after the fact. While I am not going to open a profiling service, the simple fact is that I expected the EULA to be the same as the one for Monaco. This is a simple bait and switch IMHO.
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COULEUR-ICC
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« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2011, 11:49:51 AM »
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I'm certainly not saying anyone is ignorant and I also include incredibly detailed PDFs with the training and profiles that I generate. I work with some amazingly proficient professionals around the world and find that even the best can benefit from some dialog and training about the finer aspects of this complex topic (color management).

What I am saying/recognizing (with lots of experience here) is that there are inherent challenges with public remote profiling services.
The language problem is not uncommon facilitate our exchange
(Laughs). Like you I am a specialist in color management and
As a former colorist, I meet every day players in the business
image. I can assure you that France has not everyone
necessarily need training on the subject but like to benefit from
tailored services to about icc profiles
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